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A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by Entreri
- Aug 06, 2003, 03:50 PMI'd appreciate if the people that posted here would refrain from getting into long winded arguments that are really annoying to someone looking for valuable information. Please, remember that other people read these posts & it does no one any good to listen to two cat fight.
Posted by Poly-Killer
- May 27, 2003, 06:10 AMGeorge,
Thanks for the reply, I was unaware that all FBI positions require a polygraph. I see your point, there are some heavy dues to pay if you fail. I was merely speaking about my own personality when it comes to "going for it." I guess that makes for a tough decision, if you know about the consequences. What about those who enter the process not being fully aware of the possible repercussions? Those are the ones who really stand to be blind-sided.
Thanks again,
PK
Thanks for the reply, I was unaware that all FBI positions require a polygraph. I see your point, there are some heavy dues to pay if you fail. I was merely speaking about my own personality when it comes to "going for it." I guess that makes for a tough decision, if you know about the consequences. What about those who enter the process not being fully aware of the possible repercussions? Those are the ones who really stand to be blind-sided.
Thanks again,
PK
Posted by George W. Maschke
- May 27, 2003, 05:52 AMPoly-Killer,
All positions with the FBI require a pre-employment polygraph examination. The consequences of failing the FBI polygraph are so severe and lasting that I don't think it's worth the risk. Of course, each person must make their own decision. But those for whom FBI employment has been a dream need to wake up to the fact that the FBI is quite willing to permanently brand them as drug users, drug dealers, and national security risks based solely on polygraph chart readings, that there is no formal appeal process, and that the adverse consequences of a false positive with the FBI are more severe than with other federal agencies.
All positions with the FBI require a pre-employment polygraph examination. The consequences of failing the FBI polygraph are so severe and lasting that I don't think it's worth the risk. Of course, each person must make their own decision. But those for whom FBI employment has been a dream need to wake up to the fact that the FBI is quite willing to permanently brand them as drug users, drug dealers, and national security risks based solely on polygraph chart readings, that there is no formal appeal process, and that the adverse consequences of a false positive with the FBI are more severe than with other federal agencies.
Posted by Poly-Killer
- May 27, 2003, 05:29 AMGeorge,
Are you saying that no one should should try to work for the FBI in a capacity that requires a polygraph? If so, wouldn't it be worth the risk to educate yourself on the polygraph and go into the process armed with that knowledge? If it is indeed a persons goal, or even a dream, to work for them, what is the risk of going for it versus the risk of regret 10, 15, 20 or more years down the road for not having tried? I am only speaking for myself, but I think not giving my dream a shot would weigh too heavily on my mind.
Maybe I am missing the bigger picture here, but, I think if it were me, and it was a lifelong ambition, I would go for it, if it was merely being considered as a "good job" I would have to give some serious consideration to the risks, rewards, consequences etc. Ultimately the decision lies with each individual (no pun intended). I do believe that if an individual does decide to pursue that course (employment with the FBI), they definitely have an advantage if they go into the process educated about the poly and it's shortcomings.
Just a thought,
PK
Are you saying that no one should should try to work for the FBI in a capacity that requires a polygraph? If so, wouldn't it be worth the risk to educate yourself on the polygraph and go into the process armed with that knowledge? If it is indeed a persons goal, or even a dream, to work for them, what is the risk of going for it versus the risk of regret 10, 15, 20 or more years down the road for not having tried? I am only speaking for myself, but I think not giving my dream a shot would weigh too heavily on my mind.
Maybe I am missing the bigger picture here, but, I think if it were me, and it was a lifelong ambition, I would go for it, if it was merely being considered as a "good job" I would have to give some serious consideration to the risks, rewards, consequences etc. Ultimately the decision lies with each individual (no pun intended). I do believe that if an individual does decide to pursue that course (employment with the FBI), they definitely have an advantage if they go into the process educated about the poly and it's shortcomings.
Just a thought,
PK
Posted by George W. Maschke
- May 27, 2003, 03:47 AMMike R.,
Before you decide whether to seek employment with the FBI, you should weigh the risk of a false positive polygraph outcome (and its potential long-term adverse consequences) against the benefits of FBI employment. In my opinion, the FBI polygraph is a risk not worth taking, for reasons I've explained in my article, "Just Say 'No' to FBI Polygraphs."
Before you decide whether to seek employment with the FBI, you should weigh the risk of a false positive polygraph outcome (and its potential long-term adverse consequences) against the benefits of FBI employment. In my opinion, the FBI polygraph is a risk not worth taking, for reasons I've explained in my article, "Just Say 'No' to FBI Polygraphs."
Posted by Poly-Killer
- May 27, 2003, 03:24 AMMike R.,
Although I cannot speak from personal experience in the FEDERAL LE community, I can speak from my experiences within the scope of local LE. If the only thing you are worried about is a misdemeanor cite of my state's equivalent to "Underage Consumption of Alcohol", you shouldn't have too much to worry about. That is, of course, assuming there are no other "indiscretions" that surface during your BI. Just be candid with them, accept responsibility for your actions, tell them you have learned from your mistake, blah blah blah. From what I know about LE, these are the things they want to hear ( I don't imagine the FBI would be that different) . I undertand Orolan's feelings, but I have to agree with triple x on several counts. Certainly, if it is your goal to work for the Feds, GO FOR IT, but I would also suggest you follow his advice and educate yourself about the entire hiring/BI process as much as possible, including (especially) the polygraph.
Good luck!
PK
Although I cannot speak from personal experience in the FEDERAL LE community, I can speak from my experiences within the scope of local LE. If the only thing you are worried about is a misdemeanor cite of my state's equivalent to "Underage Consumption of Alcohol", you shouldn't have too much to worry about. That is, of course, assuming there are no other "indiscretions" that surface during your BI. Just be candid with them, accept responsibility for your actions, tell them you have learned from your mistake, blah blah blah. From what I know about LE, these are the things they want to hear ( I don't imagine the FBI would be that different) . I undertand Orolan's feelings, but I have to agree with triple x on several counts. Certainly, if it is your goal to work for the Feds, GO FOR IT, but I would also suggest you follow his advice and educate yourself about the entire hiring/BI process as much as possible, including (especially) the polygraph.
Good luck!
PK
Posted by Seeker
- May 27, 2003, 02:53 AMQuote from: beech trees on May 27, 2003, 12:11 AMMike,
If this bonehead can pass the almighty FBI polygraph interrogation and become a Supervisory Special Agent, surely you can as well.
Meet Supervisory Agent John T. Hanson: Appliance Assassin
ROTFLMAO
beech trees:
Thank you for that lovely opportunity for me to further endear myself to the bureau boys! I am sure the bulk email I sent out to them all will be sure to raise me in the ranks of those who are favored!
Guess they can't use that appliance in their interrogations now, huh?
I heard a story once about an agent who shot himself in the ass at Quantico. That one was about as rich as this one! Too bad it didn't get the press it deserved.
LOL
Regards,
Seeker
Posted by triple x
- May 27, 2003, 01:24 AMorolan,
You wrote:
Spin your advice any way that you like. Its obvious that you possess a degree of resentment towards Federal LE employment for your own personal reasons. Im curious, does your resentment stem from a bad experience with pre-employment polygraph testing.?
I do not hold the FBI and/or any other Federal LE agency responsible for unreliable pre-employment polygraph testing. I have worked with the FBI, and I personally have many close personal friends that are currently Special Agents within the bureau that do not support polygraph testing in general. This is regardless if it is the initial pre-employment polygraph exam, or, the required 5-year PR [periodic review] which includes a polygraph exam to maintain a TS clearance.
Im strongly opposed to pre-employment polygraph testing in general, not federal LE employment.
Anyone seeking employment with the FBI and/or any other Federal LE agency should strive to achieve their goals. Do not give up short of success. Simply because you do not think the FBI or other federal agencies are worthy of pursuit, dont attempt to swayed others from their goals due to your own personal reasoning and resentments.
You quoted me correctly; I stand behind my post with respect to the FBI and the various other federal agencies being respected, admired and excellent jobs. They are indeed respected and sought after positions. Most members of this message board have probably applied for and been denied Federal LE employment positions mostly due to failed pre-employment polygraph exams.
My position on this issue is now, and has always been, pre-employment polygraph testing is unfair, unreliable and flawed.
Triple x
You wrote:
Quotehow can a person have a "highly respected, admirable and excellent job" as you point out, when those same agencies condone the use of a test "...riddled with trickery, deceit and is intentionally misleading." as you also point out
Spin your advice any way that you like. Its obvious that you possess a degree of resentment towards Federal LE employment for your own personal reasons. Im curious, does your resentment stem from a bad experience with pre-employment polygraph testing.?
I do not hold the FBI and/or any other Federal LE agency responsible for unreliable pre-employment polygraph testing. I have worked with the FBI, and I personally have many close personal friends that are currently Special Agents within the bureau that do not support polygraph testing in general. This is regardless if it is the initial pre-employment polygraph exam, or, the required 5-year PR [periodic review] which includes a polygraph exam to maintain a TS clearance.
Im strongly opposed to pre-employment polygraph testing in general, not federal LE employment.
Anyone seeking employment with the FBI and/or any other Federal LE agency should strive to achieve their goals. Do not give up short of success. Simply because you do not think the FBI or other federal agencies are worthy of pursuit, dont attempt to swayed others from their goals due to your own personal reasoning and resentments.
You quoted me correctly; I stand behind my post with respect to the FBI and the various other federal agencies being respected, admired and excellent jobs. They are indeed respected and sought after positions. Most members of this message board have probably applied for and been denied Federal LE employment positions mostly due to failed pre-employment polygraph exams.
My position on this issue is now, and has always been, pre-employment polygraph testing is unfair, unreliable and flawed.
Triple x
Posted by orolan
- May 27, 2003, 01:18 AMbeech trees,
Well, there goes the "highly respected" part of triple x's job description.
Amused,
Have you been to Vegas lately
LOL
Well, there goes the "highly respected" part of triple x's job description.
Amused,
Have you been to Vegas lately
LOL
Posted by Mike R.
- May 27, 2003, 12:52 AMThank you all for your responses, they've helped me a bunch so far. However another question - would the government agencies know about the ticket I received or would it just be a standard question during the polygraph testing. For instance, when they do a background check they'd find out either way right? Or is it that minor misdemeanors like this aren't important and they could care less (unlike felonies). Thank You.
Posted by orolan
- May 27, 2003, 12:24 AMAmused,
Since I did qualify my response, your post is nothing but a waste of bytes on a hard drive. 'Nuff said.
triple x,
Just my opinion. It is apparent from his post that working for the FBI is not Mike's lifelong dream or ambition as you seem to allude. Perhaps if he had stated that he has wanted this ever since he was a little boy I might have responded in a different tone. As for working for federal agencies, how can a person have a "highly respected, admirable and excellent job" as you point out, when those same agencies condone the use of a test "...riddled with trickery, deceit and is intentionally misleading." as you also point out
Since I did qualify my response, your post is nothing but a waste of bytes on a hard drive. 'Nuff said.
triple x,
Just my opinion. It is apparent from his post that working for the FBI is not Mike's lifelong dream or ambition as you seem to allude. Perhaps if he had stated that he has wanted this ever since he was a little boy I might have responded in a different tone. As for working for federal agencies, how can a person have a "highly respected, admirable and excellent job" as you point out, when those same agencies condone the use of a test "...riddled with trickery, deceit and is intentionally misleading." as you also point out
Posted by beech trees
- May 27, 2003, 12:11 AMMike,
If this bonehead can pass the almighty FBI polygraph interrogation and become a Supervisory Special Agent, surely you can as well.
Meet Supervisory Agent John T. Hanson: Appliance Assassin
If this bonehead can pass the almighty FBI polygraph interrogation and become a Supervisory Special Agent, surely you can as well.
Meet Supervisory Agent John T. Hanson: Appliance Assassin
Posted by triple x
- May 26, 2003, 11:23 PMMike R.,
You should continue to pursue your career ambitions and dreams at all cost, let nothing stand in your way.
Having said that; its strictly my opinion, you have little-to-nothing to worry about with respect to the ticket you received at age 17, and your potential future employment with the bureau. Simply be completely truthful, honest and forthright with the FBI employment and background investigation {SF86} application, and you will do fine.
However, I do caution you to educate yourself with the methodology supporting polygraph testing. Simply telling the truth and being completely honest during a polygraph exam, is no guarantee of passing the test.
Polygraph testing is riddled with trickery, deceit and is intentionally misleading.
False positive results are not uncommon.
If you have not already done so, I strongly recommend that you download and read {TLBTLD} available for free of charge here on this website.
Knowledge is power, educate yourself.
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orolan,
You wrote:
I strongly disagree with your attempt to discourage Mike R. {or anyone else for that matter} from following his interest with the bureau and/or any other Federal agency. They are all highly respected, admirable and excellent jobs to have. Money is not everything.
You should give more thought to the advice you so freely give out.
Mike R.,
Pursue your dreams with the bureau, and please keep us posted on your progress.
Good luck.
Respectfully,
triple x
You should continue to pursue your career ambitions and dreams at all cost, let nothing stand in your way.
Having said that; its strictly my opinion, you have little-to-nothing to worry about with respect to the ticket you received at age 17, and your potential future employment with the bureau. Simply be completely truthful, honest and forthright with the FBI employment and background investigation {SF86} application, and you will do fine.
However, I do caution you to educate yourself with the methodology supporting polygraph testing. Simply telling the truth and being completely honest during a polygraph exam, is no guarantee of passing the test.
Polygraph testing is riddled with trickery, deceit and is intentionally misleading.
False positive results are not uncommon.
If you have not already done so, I strongly recommend that you download and read {TLBTLD} available for free of charge here on this website.
Knowledge is power, educate yourself.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
orolan,
You wrote:
QuoteIs it worth the risks?
Forget the FBI. Go to work in the private sector. The money is a lot better anyway.
I strongly disagree with your attempt to discourage Mike R. {or anyone else for that matter} from following his interest with the bureau and/or any other Federal agency. They are all highly respected, admirable and excellent jobs to have. Money is not everything.
You should give more thought to the advice you so freely give out.
Mike R.,
Pursue your dreams with the bureau, and please keep us posted on your progress.
Good luck.
Respectfully,
triple x
Posted by Amused
- May 26, 2003, 11:18 PMOrolan the Moron - you never cease to amaze me. You don't hesitate to give advice on every subject - even those that by your own admission you know absolutely nothing about. Oh well after all you are just following the example of your hero George 'BS'er in Chief'.
Posted by orolan
- May 26, 2003, 10:36 PMMike,
Out of my field of knowledge, but I'll take a stab based on other posts I've read. Odds are that by the time you get to the application process the offense will be too far back to matter. And if you are forthcoming about it on the application, it should not be a problem.
Now it gets sticky. If the examiner doesn't like you and he/she can't find anything else to use, this will be it. You will "have a little trouble" with the alcohol abuse question. You will be asked if you are hiding something. You will be interrogated until you bring forth an "admission" that you drank alcohol on more than one occasion while under age. Once you've done that, the examiner will move on to your current habits regarding alcohol abuse. Saying you don't drink at all will only make him/her try even harder. If you don't admit, then you will "fail" and be blacklisted from most federal law enforcement jobs. Is it worth the risks?
Forget the FBI. Go to work in the private sector. The money is a lot better anyway.
Out of my field of knowledge, but I'll take a stab based on other posts I've read. Odds are that by the time you get to the application process the offense will be too far back to matter. And if you are forthcoming about it on the application, it should not be a problem.
Now it gets sticky. If the examiner doesn't like you and he/she can't find anything else to use, this will be it. You will "have a little trouble" with the alcohol abuse question. You will be asked if you are hiding something. You will be interrogated until you bring forth an "admission" that you drank alcohol on more than one occasion while under age. Once you've done that, the examiner will move on to your current habits regarding alcohol abuse. Saying you don't drink at all will only make him/her try even harder. If you don't admit, then you will "fail" and be blacklisted from most federal law enforcement jobs. Is it worth the risks?
Forget the FBI. Go to work in the private sector. The money is a lot better anyway.