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A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by Poly-Killer
- Jun 20, 2003, 07:22 AMSorry gang...been gone for WMD training...boy was it a "blast"!! 
Guest from Canada,
We already discussed this, at length, and I don't think she would be putting herself in harms way. She is going to approach it from a "non-adversarial" perspective. Rather than going in screaming "this thing is crap" (which it is), she is simply going to present him with the findings and let him take it from there. He is a good guy, and a very good leader, I don't think she has to worry.
I spoke with an examiner recently, and he realizes that there are false positives and such, but feels it is "worth the price." He feels that it isn't whether the poly is 100%, or even 50% accurate, he said "the value of the poly is in the information obtained from the examinees, be it due to intimidation, belief in the poly's accuracy, etc." The way he sees it, "it scares the hell out people." He realizes it's just a scare tactic and was fairly open about it.
Saidme,
You really should get out more often, I am flattered nonetheless. Maybe you aren't "up to speed" on all my views regarding the polygraph. I do believe there is some benefit and applicability for the poly in criminal matters, just not in SCREENING formats. It's far too flawed, even some pro-poly people admit this. As far as detective work goes, I really don't see that for me...although it's a very important part of LE, it's too boring for me.
I'd rather be doing the job on the street and teaching others to do the job, no offense to any detectives that may read this. I do find, however, most of them do their job through sound detective work, being out in the field, gathering evidence, forensics, etc., not by simply lining people up and plugging them into a box. They do use the poly when needed. As for what kinds of cases, how often, etc, I really don't know.
I did find out some interesting information. My dept. has 5 full-time poly examiners, 2 strictly for screening, 2 for criminal, 1 that does both. The two "screeners" are both out on leave, 1 for stress, 1 for medical as a result of frequent migraines. I wonder why.
Suethem,
I can only say I'm glad I'm in a position where I have limited contact with them, they're a little bit "different" from REAL cops.
I do occasionally see the examiner I beat up during my poly, I just grin and say hi, all the while I'm thinking "puhleeease." He thinks of himself as being "intimidating", ( he said one time "now that Dale Earnhart is gone, there is only intimidator left"). "Intimidator", yeah, right. 
Best,
PK
Guest from Canada,
We already discussed this, at length, and I don't think she would be putting herself in harms way. She is going to approach it from a "non-adversarial" perspective. Rather than going in screaming "this thing is crap" (which it is), she is simply going to present him with the findings and let him take it from there. He is a good guy, and a very good leader, I don't think she has to worry.
I spoke with an examiner recently, and he realizes that there are false positives and such, but feels it is "worth the price." He feels that it isn't whether the poly is 100%, or even 50% accurate, he said "the value of the poly is in the information obtained from the examinees, be it due to intimidation, belief in the poly's accuracy, etc." The way he sees it, "it scares the hell out people." He realizes it's just a scare tactic and was fairly open about it.
Saidme,
You really should get out more often, I am flattered nonetheless. Maybe you aren't "up to speed" on all my views regarding the polygraph. I do believe there is some benefit and applicability for the poly in criminal matters, just not in SCREENING formats. It's far too flawed, even some pro-poly people admit this. As far as detective work goes, I really don't see that for me...although it's a very important part of LE, it's too boring for me.
I'd rather be doing the job on the street and teaching others to do the job, no offense to any detectives that may read this. I do find, however, most of them do their job through sound detective work, being out in the field, gathering evidence, forensics, etc., not by simply lining people up and plugging them into a box. They do use the poly when needed. As for what kinds of cases, how often, etc, I really don't know.
I did find out some interesting information. My dept. has 5 full-time poly examiners, 2 strictly for screening, 2 for criminal, 1 that does both. The two "screeners" are both out on leave, 1 for stress, 1 for medical as a result of frequent migraines. I wonder why.
Suethem,
I can only say I'm glad I'm in a position where I have limited contact with them, they're a little bit "different" from REAL cops.
I do occasionally see the examiner I beat up during my poly, I just grin and say hi, all the while I'm thinking "puhleeease." He thinks of himself as being "intimidating", ( he said one time "now that Dale Earnhart is gone, there is only intimidator left"). "Intimidator", yeah, right. Best,
PK
Posted by suethem
- Jun 20, 2003, 01:04 AMPK,
If you need a polygrapher to help you with your cases, your cases are already in big trouble!
If you need a polygrapher to help you with your cases, your cases are already in big trouble!
Posted by Saidme
- Jun 19, 2003, 11:12 PMOh PK, you're my hero. Come back in about 15 years after you've requested polygraph examinations for suspects in some of your cases (if you ever get in a detective unit).
Posted by guest from canada
- Jun 19, 2003, 07:42 PMI didn't mean for it to come across as such. I meant to say something along the lines that officers who try rocking the boat or who are seen as potential non conformists may not be received into the blue brotherhood as readily. Trying to discredit a method that the force has been using might shake up the chiefs (and/or other officers) faith and trust in the informing officer. They might not feel as close to him/her and start to consciously and/or subconsciously ostrasize that "trouble maker". Look at how the police and pro polygraph community look towrds that ex cop/polygrapher turn cruisader (sorry can't remeber his name).
Posted by Human Subject
- Jun 19, 2003, 07:28 PMQuote from: guest from canada on Jun 19, 2003, 03:45 PMI am 100% sure that the police forces know this too and are maintaining it in their programs strictly as a thumbscrew type scare tool to gain confessions, and as a backup measure to weed out undesirable applicants under the guise they "did not pass the poly".
I believed this too, but after recently failing my FBI polygraph my belief has been shaken. I think there are true believers in these organizations.
On the question of whether polygraph failures are just a "front" for eliminating candidates for reasons these organizations would rather not explain... has there been any research on race and gender and polygraphy?
Posted by orolan
- Jun 19, 2003, 04:39 PMCanuck,
Any "open-minded guy", as poly-killer said this particular chief was, would not stoop so low as to derail someones career simply because they presented a plausible informed argument against poygraph usage. Believe it or not there actually are people who truly believe the polygraph works. Most of them are polygraphers, but not all of them. I think that the majority of people who do believe in the polygraph do so simply due to an ignorance of the true facts. What poly-killer's friend proposes to do is enlighten one of those people.
In hindsight I think she should have went ahead and gone to the school. Then she could have come back and told the chief that what she learned was a bunch of lies and voodoo science and she wanted no part of it.
Any "open-minded guy", as poly-killer said this particular chief was, would not stoop so low as to derail someones career simply because they presented a plausible informed argument against poygraph usage. Believe it or not there actually are people who truly believe the polygraph works. Most of them are polygraphers, but not all of them. I think that the majority of people who do believe in the polygraph do so simply due to an ignorance of the true facts. What poly-killer's friend proposes to do is enlighten one of those people.
In hindsight I think she should have went ahead and gone to the school. Then she could have come back and told the chief that what she learned was a bunch of lies and voodoo science and she wanted no part of it.
Posted by guest from canada
- Jun 19, 2003, 03:45 PMI hate to disagree but I don't think taking the anti poly info to the chief will do anything but potentially harm a career. I have to think that it is best for one to not rock the boat when it comes to a LE career. Conform, continue to do your little bit each day and continue to collect your paycheck. Do and learn what you can while you are in and save the crusading for later.
I put the chances of making a police chief sit up and take notice at around 1%.
I can only assume that the upper crust of the force in question has some assemblance of intelligence. Anyone with two brain cells to rub together, and a shred of scientific logical thinking ability can research and deduce that the poly can't detect lies! As we all know it is a farce. I am 100% sure that the police forces know this too and are maintaining it in their programs strictly as a thumbscrew type scare tool to gain confessions, and as a backup measure to weed out undesirable applicants under the guise they "did not pass the poly".
I have a hard time believing that the police actually think this machine works to detect lies. If they have the wool pulled over their eyes to that degree then we had better start worrying about their ability to properly police and protect us.
I put the chances of making a police chief sit up and take notice at around 1%.
I can only assume that the upper crust of the force in question has some assemblance of intelligence. Anyone with two brain cells to rub together, and a shred of scientific logical thinking ability can research and deduce that the poly can't detect lies! As we all know it is a farce. I am 100% sure that the police forces know this too and are maintaining it in their programs strictly as a thumbscrew type scare tool to gain confessions, and as a backup measure to weed out undesirable applicants under the guise they "did not pass the poly".
I have a hard time believing that the police actually think this machine works to detect lies. If they have the wool pulled over their eyes to that degree then we had better start worrying about their ability to properly police and protect us.
Posted by Poly-Killer
- Jun 04, 2003, 09:41 AMSuethem,
Judging the way Felt-Up went around the site yesterday posting mindless chatter, I'd have to say you're on to something. Maybe THAT'S why he's "Fed-Up", maybe he isn't an EMPLOYEE of the Government, maybe he's a TEST SUBJECT.
PK
Judging the way Felt-Up went around the site yesterday posting mindless chatter, I'd have to say you're on to something. Maybe THAT'S why he's "Fed-Up", maybe he isn't an EMPLOYEE of the Government, maybe he's a TEST SUBJECT.
PK
Posted by suethem
- Jun 04, 2003, 12:56 AMFed-up-Fed,
Unfortunately, Dr. Drew can't recruit you as one of his test subjects for his 'brain wave' test, for obvious reasons...
Unfortunately, Dr. Drew can't recruit you as one of his test subjects for his 'brain wave' test, for obvious reasons...
Posted by Fed-up Fed
- Jun 03, 2003, 07:39 PMYes, maybe Drew can recruit her to run his new and improved "brain wave" lie detector.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Jun 03, 2003, 03:47 AMPK,
I'll keep my fingers crossed, too. Your friend might wish to contact Dr. Drew Richardson, whom I suspect would be willing to provide her with a letter of support that she could include with her documentation packet for the chief. She can contact Dr. Richardson by sending him a private message through this message board.
I'll keep my fingers crossed, too. Your friend might wish to contact Dr. Drew Richardson, whom I suspect would be willing to provide her with a letter of support that she could include with her documentation packet for the chief. She can contact Dr. Richardson by sending him a private message through this message board.
Posted by Poly-Killer
- Jun 03, 2003, 03:15 AMGeorge and co.
Apparently she is willing to see this thing through, she is compiling all the data she can, in order to present a well-organized case to the Chief.
Like I said, I have high hopes that she is successful with this, because the Chief for that department is very influential and has many powerful friends. I'll keep my fingers crossed.
By the way, she did tell me that she registered today, but during the conversation, I forgot to ask her username...go figure.
PK
Apparently she is willing to see this thing through, she is compiling all the data she can, in order to present a well-organized case to the Chief.
Like I said, I have high hopes that she is successful with this, because the Chief for that department is very influential and has many powerful friends. I'll keep my fingers crossed.
By the way, she did tell me that she registered today, but during the conversation, I forgot to ask her username...go figure.
PK
Posted by suethem
- Jun 02, 2003, 01:42 AMfed-up Fed,
The position I applied for does not have a polygraph test as part of its process.
I believe that the investigator was sharing his honest opinion and not trying to use the old 'I'm on your side buddy' tactic. He gave detailed information and spoke in a manner that was far from canned.
I think the dark ways of the polygrapher have rubbed off on you a little. An investigator is supposed to find out the truth and paint an accurate portrayal of a subject.
Leave the lies and trickery to the polygrapher! It's the only thing they're good at....
The position I applied for does not have a polygraph test as part of its process.
I believe that the investigator was sharing his honest opinion and not trying to use the old 'I'm on your side buddy' tactic. He gave detailed information and spoke in a manner that was far from canned.
I think the dark ways of the polygrapher have rubbed off on you a little. An investigator is supposed to find out the truth and paint an accurate portrayal of a subject.
Leave the lies and trickery to the polygrapher! It's the only thing they're good at....
Posted by Poly-Killer
- May 31, 2003, 06:42 AMThanks George,
I directed her to this site, although I don't know if she has registered yet. If she hasn't, I am sure she will. I will also forward that info to her. She is definitely not the kind of officer to back down from something like this, if she decides to pursue it, she will go all-out.
Thanks again,
PK
I directed her to this site, although I don't know if she has registered yet. If she hasn't, I am sure she will. I will also forward that info to her. She is definitely not the kind of officer to back down from something like this, if she decides to pursue it, she will go all-out.
Thanks again,
PK
Posted by George W. Maschke
- May 31, 2003, 06:20 AMPK,
If your friend goes to the chief to talk about scrapping the polygraph, she might cite the example of the Philadelphia P.D., which ended polygraph screening last year. See the discussion threads NO MORE POLY FOR PHILLY and List of Non-Poly LE agencies? Want to start one?.
If your friend goes to the chief to talk about scrapping the polygraph, she might cite the example of the Philadelphia P.D., which ended polygraph screening last year. See the discussion threads NO MORE POLY FOR PHILLY and List of Non-Poly LE agencies? Want to start one?.