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Posted by George W. Maschke
- May 26, 2003, 04:49 AMBreeze,
The fact that the DoDPI racial bias study involved trainees is not a compelling reason for discounting it. As noted in AntiPolygraph.org's cover letter to the report:
The fact that the DoDPI racial bias study involved trainees is not a compelling reason for discounting it. As noted in AntiPolygraph.org's cover letter to the report:
QuoteA few words are in order regarding why this study should be considered carefully and why certain possible "straw-man" arguments that might be raised to discredit it should be carefully questioned and likely dismissed. First, in order to have any validity, a polygraph bias study (racial or otherwise) would have to be conducted such that examiners had no idea that a bias study was being conducted. Otherwise, in the case of a racial bias study, examiners would simply try to balance the number of blacks and whites who were found to be deceptive. Even if there existed some substantial number of false positives, they would be equally balanced, and there would appear to be no racial bias.
It has been suggested informally by the polygraph community that these large numbers of exams were conducted by federal polygraph examiner trainees (students) during their course of basic instruction at DoDPI and that this is a weakness and perhaps a reason for discounting these results. In fact, quite the opposite is true: because the exams were training exams and not conducted for purposes of detecting possible bias, they are far less susceptible to being manipulated to disguise any bias that may exist. This is precisely how such a study should be conducted in this regard. The polygraph community has suggested that because these were trainees with limited experience, these results should be discounted. Nonsense! Any bias that might be exhibited by these or other individuals has little to do with the trade school instruction of a few weeks of polygraph training, but rather with the lifetime of impressions and influences that 30- to 50-year-old law enforcement/intelligence community officers and agents (those who constitute the polygraph classes) have amassed. Bias is likely to be reflected not in the technical operation of the polygraph instrument (calibration, etc.), but rather in the pre-test interview (question formulation, etc.) and the in-test phase question presentation to the examinee.
Posted by The_Breeze
- May 23, 2003, 12:56 PMGeorge
Noted. I should be more clear that our applicant pool reflects our community, that is to say 50% of our applicants are from what some refer to as minority groups. They seem to fail at the same rate as thier fellow white applicants.
Both polygraphers are white. Does all this mean anything? probably not, but it does provide a glimpse into the day to day failure dynamics of a fairly large metropolitan area. I would be clueless if it relates to any other population area.
I do not know about the DODPI study, but I would be hesitant to apply trainee results to any study. They are still too close to thier previous state to have a well rounded perspective in my view. No one would argue that Interviews/polygraph still contain some measure of subjectivity.
Feel free to tell me how I have confused what you wrote.
Noted. I should be more clear that our applicant pool reflects our community, that is to say 50% of our applicants are from what some refer to as minority groups. They seem to fail at the same rate as thier fellow white applicants.
Both polygraphers are white. Does all this mean anything? probably not, but it does provide a glimpse into the day to day failure dynamics of a fairly large metropolitan area. I would be clueless if it relates to any other population area.
I do not know about the DODPI study, but I would be hesitant to apply trainee results to any study. They are still too close to thier previous state to have a well rounded perspective in my view. No one would argue that Interviews/polygraph still contain some measure of subjectivity.
Feel free to tell me how I have confused what you wrote.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- May 23, 2003, 04:42 AMBreeze,
You wrote to NewVictim:
The DoDPI racial bias study which I referenced is an empirical one. It examined actual polygraph examinations administered by polygrapher trainees at DoDPI. There is no rational basis for casually dismissing it as "theoretical," as you seem to do.
You also wrote to me:
What I mean is that the fact that whites and non-whites are failing the polygraph in equal numbers does not mean that they are failing the polygraph in equal percentages.
For example, let's suppose that 60% of those polygraphed are white, and 40% are non-white. If, in absolute terms, equal numbers of whites and non-whites are failing the polygraph, then the percentage of non-whites who fail is higher than the percentage of whites who fail.
The mere fact that an equal number of whites and non-whites failed the polygraph doesn't really tell us anything about potential racial bias in polygraph examinations.
You wrote to NewVictim:
Quote...This means not a theoretical study published by DODPI or elsewhere that seems to show minorities are subject to polygraph bias....
The DoDPI racial bias study which I referenced is an empirical one. It examined actual polygraph examinations administered by polygrapher trainees at DoDPI. There is no rational basis for casually dismissing it as "theoretical," as you seem to do.
You also wrote to me:
Quote...I did not completely understand your comment about realitive numbers.
The number represents 100% of our total, and is as I said a non scientific observation. Just a snapshot...
What I mean is that the fact that whites and non-whites are failing the polygraph in equal numbers does not mean that they are failing the polygraph in equal percentages.
For example, let's suppose that 60% of those polygraphed are white, and 40% are non-white. If, in absolute terms, equal numbers of whites and non-whites are failing the polygraph, then the percentage of non-whites who fail is higher than the percentage of whites who fail.
The mere fact that an equal number of whites and non-whites failed the polygraph doesn't really tell us anything about potential racial bias in polygraph examinations.
Posted by Seeker
- May 22, 2003, 11:56 PMNew Victim:
Just for the record, I not only live in a minority world, but I live in several different minority worlds all at once.
Yes, I was taken aback from what I had observed. It made me strongly reevaluate my association with federal law enforcement. I expected much more from these individuals.
Regards,
Seeker
Just for the record, I not only live in a minority world, but I live in several different minority worlds all at once.
Yes, I was taken aback from what I had observed. It made me strongly reevaluate my association with federal law enforcement. I expected much more from these individuals.
Regards,
Seeker
Posted by The_Breeze
- May 22, 2003, 10:46 PMGeorge
thanks for waiting, and for the correction of year. I did not completely understand your comment about realitive numbers.
The number represents 100% of our total, and is as I said a non scientific observation. Just a snapshot. Should I become really bored, I will ask the administrator of pseudo scientific fraud to pull all charts results of the past 5 years, and see if this equality in failure that I see now, has a historical/ racial slant one way or another.
thanks for waiting, and for the correction of year. I did not completely understand your comment about realitive numbers.
The number represents 100% of our total, and is as I said a non scientific observation. Just a snapshot. Should I become really bored, I will ask the administrator of pseudo scientific fraud to pull all charts results of the past 5 years, and see if this equality in failure that I see now, has a historical/ racial slant one way or another.
Posted by The_Breeze
- May 22, 2003, 10:34 PMNV
I've enjoyed our brief exchange. Its amazing how something presented in jest or simple sarcasm can be completely misunderstood.
I did not want to call you new victim out of respect, you dont seem victim like to me.
Your doing better means your not thinking like an angry person as you type. Its also basic sarcasm. (call it a character flaw) One of my degrees is in education however, so maybe that with teaching on the side since 1987 makes me think Im always on some sort of podium.
Ill take your advice and make it a point to get better.
See you later, I cant stand to come here too much, and Ive overdone it today as my cases suffer.
I've enjoyed our brief exchange. Its amazing how something presented in jest or simple sarcasm can be completely misunderstood.
I did not want to call you new victim out of respect, you dont seem victim like to me.
Your doing better means your not thinking like an angry person as you type. Its also basic sarcasm. (call it a character flaw) One of my degrees is in education however, so maybe that with teaching on the side since 1987 makes me think Im always on some sort of podium.
Ill take your advice and make it a point to get better.
See you later, I cant stand to come here too much, and Ive overdone it today as my cases suffer.
Posted by NVictim
- May 22, 2003, 09:55 PMBreeze,
I re-read your post and figured out what may have touched off the response (Race is a touchy subject as it is). You called me 'New Person' which isnt my name. That is usually a sign of disrespect (Guess names is a touchy subject also). I dont know you from Adam and thats the first contact you have with me. Hence I had my guard up and my radar on. Lets go back to the comment "The first few words and looks exchanged can mean the difference between confrontation and cooperation." You got confrontation
Your right, its a victims mentality to blame others. I blame noone. However, I hope the polygraph goes away. In the meantime, life does go on.
Its too bad you didnt your job because of a race quote, I think its wrong and just as evil as racism. I hope that goes away as well.
Ahem, on a side note, hope you dont take offence. Your comment "Good, your doing better" sounds a little condesending. Its something you say to a child or your student which I am neither. But, since I kinda know where your comming from I will think nothing of it. I just want you to be aware what you say can cause a reaction you did not intend. I hope "you do better" in that area as well.
Now that we understand each other, I am doing fine. Hopefully, I will get to know you from Adam.
I re-read your post and figured out what may have touched off the response (Race is a touchy subject as it is). You called me 'New Person' which isnt my name. That is usually a sign of disrespect (Guess names is a touchy subject also). I dont know you from Adam and thats the first contact you have with me. Hence I had my guard up and my radar on. Lets go back to the comment "The first few words and looks exchanged can mean the difference between confrontation and cooperation." You got confrontation
Your right, its a victims mentality to blame others. I blame noone. However, I hope the polygraph goes away. In the meantime, life does go on.
Its too bad you didnt your job because of a race quote, I think its wrong and just as evil as racism. I hope that goes away as well.
Ahem, on a side note, hope you dont take offence. Your comment "Good, your doing better" sounds a little condesending. Its something you say to a child or your student which I am neither. But, since I kinda know where your comming from I will think nothing of it. I just want you to be aware what you say can cause a reaction you did not intend. I hope "you do better" in that area as well.
Now that we understand each other, I am doing fine. Hopefully, I will get to know you from Adam.
Posted by The_Breeze
- May 22, 2003, 08:58 PMVictim
Good, your doing better.
I meant, if one slip up (lets blame the examiner for simplicity) holds you back, that would be a victims thinking. I get to see alot of that as you might imagine on my job.
Real world. This means not a theoretical study published by DODPI or elsewhere that seems to show minorities are subject to polygraph bias. I meant it in a friendly way you took to be condescending. Together we expose your sensitivity, its beautiful.
I have been denied a job (believe this if you want) because I was white. It was a job that took a year of tests, and I was candidly told by my background investigator that they needed minorities, and had too many white males. What a great lawsuit if I was so inclined.
I have never looked back and like you have done fine. A person prone to blameing the system could be paralized by such a setback. Thats what a victim is.
Now that we understand each other, hows it goin?
Good, your doing better.
I meant, if one slip up (lets blame the examiner for simplicity) holds you back, that would be a victims thinking. I get to see alot of that as you might imagine on my job.
Real world. This means not a theoretical study published by DODPI or elsewhere that seems to show minorities are subject to polygraph bias. I meant it in a friendly way you took to be condescending. Together we expose your sensitivity, its beautiful.
I have been denied a job (believe this if you want) because I was white. It was a job that took a year of tests, and I was candidly told by my background investigator that they needed minorities, and had too many white males. What a great lawsuit if I was so inclined.
I have never looked back and like you have done fine. A person prone to blameing the system could be paralized by such a setback. Thats what a victim is.
Now that we understand each other, hows it goin?
Posted by NVictim
- May 22, 2003, 08:09 PMAll I know is that the polygraph does not work, and a simple bias (which we all have) from an examiner shows a weakness in the polygraph system.
My story I shared regarding my polygraph experience is only a tibit of the 10 total grueling hours I spent in this flawed system. I did not say that it was the sole purpose of failing the polygraph. In fact I dont know why I failed. The exmainer mentioned that it may just be that I am pron to be 'excited' when it came to questions regarding serious crime. In the end the examiner was very freindly. Of course I had to sit through the good cop/ bad cop routine from the same person which looked silly and not believable. Anyway you cant argue with the best polygraph examiner this country has to offer as they stated.
I was just curious as you are as to whatever the answer is regarding how prejudice and or ignorance may effect the the polygraph system.
Yes I took offense to your comment "Your a victim if you expect to be" beacuse I still dont understand it. Before that statement I didnt think much of your post at all.
Here is what I thought it meant "I brought the situation to myself because I expected to fail" My answer is of course, I did not bring this situation to myself and I expected to pass.
And your comment about the real world. If you live in the real world, where does everyone else live? And who are you referring to? Are you saying only polygraph examiners live in the real world?
My story I shared regarding my polygraph experience is only a tibit of the 10 total grueling hours I spent in this flawed system. I did not say that it was the sole purpose of failing the polygraph. In fact I dont know why I failed. The exmainer mentioned that it may just be that I am pron to be 'excited' when it came to questions regarding serious crime. In the end the examiner was very freindly. Of course I had to sit through the good cop/ bad cop routine from the same person which looked silly and not believable. Anyway you cant argue with the best polygraph examiner this country has to offer as they stated.
I was just curious as you are as to whatever the answer is regarding how prejudice and or ignorance may effect the the polygraph system.
Yes I took offense to your comment "Your a victim if you expect to be" beacuse I still dont understand it. Before that statement I didnt think much of your post at all.
Here is what I thought it meant "I brought the situation to myself because I expected to fail" My answer is of course, I did not bring this situation to myself and I expected to pass.
And your comment about the real world. If you live in the real world, where does everyone else live? And who are you referring to? Are you saying only polygraph examiners live in the real world?
Posted by The_Breeze
- May 22, 2003, 07:37 PMNew Victim
Ill put it back in since it fits.
I thought it was pretty clear I was just furnishing some anecdotal evidence from my departments experience this year. Your gripping attempt at racial sarcasm have shaken me deeply, perhaps you should just relax and re-read my post to see if I actually extended pity.
You evidently feel that a stumble on your polygraph has greater implication than it has. Thats a true victims mindset.
No "my best friend is black" comments from me, as you are fine tuned to detect racial injustice in all its ugly forms. Id give you advice like :relax or lighten up, if I thought you would listen to this racially discriminating white man.
Ill put it back in since it fits.
I thought it was pretty clear I was just furnishing some anecdotal evidence from my departments experience this year. Your gripping attempt at racial sarcasm have shaken me deeply, perhaps you should just relax and re-read my post to see if I actually extended pity.
You evidently feel that a stumble on your polygraph has greater implication than it has. Thats a true victims mindset.
No "my best friend is black" comments from me, as you are fine tuned to detect racial injustice in all its ugly forms. Id give you advice like :relax or lighten up, if I thought you would listen to this racially discriminating white man.
Posted by NVictim
- May 22, 2003, 07:20 PM"Ps. Your a victim if you expect to be, in my opinion. "
I completely did not understand what you just said.
I never expected to fail the polygrapgh, in fact, I thought it was a cake walk because I had nothing to hide. I may have been a victim of junk science, but that does not mean I wont fight back. I dont need your pity.
Thank you for your scientific study, I am sure the govermment will be willing to pay you the same amount of money they paid to the NAS that prove the polygrapgh is a hoax. Congratulations your a rich man.
You live in a population of a high minority population, dont tell me, I can guess this one,... Your best friend is a minority.
The real world? What world do you think I live in?
PS. Life is what you make it... Thats why I am a very successful professional today. Can you believe I was willing to cut my pay in half so I can serve this country?
I completely did not understand what you just said.
I never expected to fail the polygrapgh, in fact, I thought it was a cake walk because I had nothing to hide. I may have been a victim of junk science, but that does not mean I wont fight back. I dont need your pity.
Thank you for your scientific study, I am sure the govermment will be willing to pay you the same amount of money they paid to the NAS that prove the polygrapgh is a hoax. Congratulations your a rich man.
You live in a population of a high minority population, dont tell me, I can guess this one,... Your best friend is a minority.
The real world? What world do you think I live in?
PS. Life is what you make it... Thats why I am a very successful professional today. Can you believe I was willing to cut my pay in half so I can serve this country?
Posted by George W. Maschke
- May 22, 2003, 07:08 PMBreeze,
Without knowing the relative numbers of white and non-white applicants polygraphed, one cannot infer much from the fact that equal numbers of whites and non-whites failed.
Without knowing the relative numbers of white and non-white applicants polygraphed, one cannot infer much from the fact that equal numbers of whites and non-whites failed.
Posted by The_Breeze
- May 22, 2003, 07:00 PMNew Person
Since you asked, I looked up the polygraph log for FY93. Not that I support your assertion, but you made me curious...How were we doing?
Believe it or not I counted the number of DI tests, and it was exactly 50/50. Thats right, an equel number of whites failed as minorities so far this year. Now this example is hardly scientific, and the sample is limited, but that is what it is.
If it makes a difference, I live and work in an area with a high minority (hispanic and Native american) population.
That population reflects the applicant mix, so it is not a disproportunate number. Hope this small example from the real world helps.
Ps. Your a victim if you expect to be, in my opinion.
Since you asked, I looked up the polygraph log for FY93. Not that I support your assertion, but you made me curious...How were we doing?
Believe it or not I counted the number of DI tests, and it was exactly 50/50. Thats right, an equel number of whites failed as minorities so far this year. Now this example is hardly scientific, and the sample is limited, but that is what it is.
If it makes a difference, I live and work in an area with a high minority (hispanic and Native american) population.
That population reflects the applicant mix, so it is not a disproportunate number. Hope this small example from the real world helps.
Ps. Your a victim if you expect to be, in my opinion.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- May 22, 2003, 05:36 PMNew Victim,
You write:
See this 1990 racial bias study (1.3 mb PDF) conducted by the Department of Defense Polygraph Institute (DoDPI). In the study, only 23.5% of innocent blacks passed, compared to 36.9% of innocent whites. DoDPI attempted to suppress this study, but fortunately, a copy escaped destruction.
You write:
QuoteI would love to know the failure rate of a minority as oppose to the other.
See this 1990 racial bias study (1.3 mb PDF) conducted by the Department of Defense Polygraph Institute (DoDPI). In the study, only 23.5% of innocent blacks passed, compared to 36.9% of innocent whites. DoDPI attempted to suppress this study, but fortunately, a copy escaped destruction.
Posted by NVictim
- May 22, 2003, 03:51 PM"The first few words and looks exchanged can mean the difference between confrontation and cooperation."
That is so true!
"The perception that it is a "white" organization is only added to if an interrogator cannot change his outlook to expand beyond his own. I could not make much out of the questions that I was asked either sometimes"
That is why the polygragh is so useless, you are only playing the game within their boundaries of their life experiences. I would love to know the failure rate of a minority as oppose to the other.
"I do not know what it is like to be in your shoes nor will I even pretend to. "
Same here
That is so true!
"The perception that it is a "white" organization is only added to if an interrogator cannot change his outlook to expand beyond his own. I could not make much out of the questions that I was asked either sometimes"
That is why the polygragh is so useless, you are only playing the game within their boundaries of their life experiences. I would love to know the failure rate of a minority as oppose to the other.
"I do not know what it is like to be in your shoes nor will I even pretend to. "
Same here