- Welcome to AntiPolygraph.org Message Board.
A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by Fair Chance
- Jan 22, 2003, 09:57 AMDear PeterFonda,
Marty aptly questioned my statement concerning your first post. I have no faith in the polygraph so I do not doubt that the polygraph can be wrong.
I do not want to cast any stones at you.
Marty and I have both previously expressed the weakness of the polygraph. Not only does it accuse innocent people of things they did not do but it "gives a free pass" through its false results of innocence in many cases. Your false result only indicates its inherit weakness.
Regards.
Marty aptly questioned my statement concerning your first post. I have no faith in the polygraph so I do not doubt that the polygraph can be wrong.
I do not want to cast any stones at you.
Marty and I have both previously expressed the weakness of the polygraph. Not only does it accuse innocent people of things they did not do but it "gives a free pass" through its false results of innocence in many cases. Your false result only indicates its inherit weakness.
Regards.
Posted by PeterFonda
- Jan 22, 2003, 04:55 AMBefore I go into my polygraph experience (IN DETAIL). I have to respond to some of the comments made regarding my first posting. First; if your applying for a job (I was not), your polygragher is paid to weed out undesirables, he or she may use a spike on your test to justify their action, but can you blame them, we all have to sleep at night. As my day approched I first read and paid for Doug's book, some basics, a little more that I needed to know, whole lot of filler. In fact most of this book could be narrowed down to 5 -6 pages. I preferred the free online copy. Many of you wrote this must be fiction, well do we here "I BELIEVE". Here is my experience, I have broken it down in how I believe the system works, at least in my case and several others. THIS MIGHT NOT BE YOUR CASE.
THE SENERIO - Group of 20 males, all convicted of minor viloence against females, to include one for throwing a glass
of water at his spouse. Others include verbal harassment, all are on probation, most supervised. Because the State cannot require a Lie Detector Test, completing the "Group" is a requirement of probation. Taking a Lie Detect mid way through is a requirement to complete the group. After completing weeks and weeks together the group gets brokrn into clicks which look out for each other.
WEEK 15 of GROUP - Most group members fail their poly and are forced to discuss their failure. ALL failed by OMISSION which is shared by the group counseler and the Probation officer. Depending on the offense most get 7 - 30 days in jail. Offenses include victim contact (wife or girlfriend), drinking, drugs, or offensive physical behavior (Throwing a romote controller at the wall, in the presence of another. During group the counselor is constantly refering to the poly with look of doom and gloom, asking if anyone has anything to get off their chest. My God we would want to find out when you take your poly.
THE SET UP - After you annouce that you have set an appointment date for your test, the game begins. From the counselor to the Probation Officer, everything ends with "IF YOU PASS YOUR POLY". Your counselor then contacts your polygrapher, and provides them of possible areas of non-compliance. (THIS IS IMPORTANT, YOUR POLYGRAPHER WILL BEGIN WITH THIS INFO). "Mine was drinking"
NIGHT BEFORE THE TEST - Went back over the free online stuff with my ex-wife, we both agreed anyone could pass. Puckering my butt and biting my tough seemed a bit extreme so I decided against it. Go to bed relaxed, and a got a good nights sleep.
TEST DAY - "TERRIFED" - As I arrived a the Polygraphers office, I was sweating and thought I would faint. I greeted my person wearing a suit, shook hands, and acted like he was a business contact. I made lots of eye contact. I told my Polygrapher that I was amazed that the Polygragh had gone the way of the computer (Ha! Ha!), how accurate it must be!
I also commented on his office, a tiny closet room without windows.
PRE-TEST - I am still not hooked up, the polygrapher takes out a sheet, and starts asking questions. The questions range
from Non-Revelant, Revelant, and possible control questions.
He asks so many questions and I am so nervous that I can't abosolutely pick out the control questions that I think he is going to use. I admit minor faults that are not punishable, for example, I admited to hurting a persons feelings out of anger
prior to the year 2000. Breaking the law by running the red light occationally by my home, etc.
THE STATEMENT - The polygrapher let's me know I am about to be hooked up to the truth machine, but feels it is important, to tell me a story about how a truthful person can show up as lying, he is my friend (Ha! Ha!) and would not want that to be me. THE STORY - He was testing a guy, he asked the guy if he had consumed any alcohol since being on probation. The Guy stated No, his machine went crazy, at the guys request, he asked the question two more times still the machine went crazy. But the polygrapher really believed the guy..Disconnected the machine..and they talked!!!!!!! After the guy remembered accidently picking up a beer on two occations, thinking it was a coke, and had taken a sip...The polygrapher re-hooked the Guy up and he PASSED.. I just shook my head and stated I understood. ( I KNEW IN MY HEART THAT THE MAN PROBABLY DID 20 DAYS IN JAIL FOR PROBATION VIOLATION, BECAUSE MOST PEOPLE DO BECOME TRUTHFUL AND CONFESS).
THE QUESTIONS - He asked 10 questions, with a good long pause between each.
On questions that I was not sure were a control question or a revelant question, I breathed normally, kept my body still. On the control questions I accelerated my breathing, just slightly and flexed my chest muscles for no more than 10 seconds. (I had only guessed 2, I later found out there were 6). We did this three times. What helped me was that I knew it was just a game, I am good at games.
THE RESULTS - After I was disconnected, he stares at his computer, occationally glances up trying to read your emotion. I smiled asked if I could see what the test looked like on the screen, he said sure. Wow, that's pretty neat, I commented..Went out had a smoke and came back and I was told I was one of the most honest people he had ever met.
(TIP: After the test never ask "Did I Pass", remember you did pass, only you can tell him different either verbally or with body langauge. I told my story, and people pass, to this day I am not so sure if counter measures are truly necessary, not if you are armed with the fact that it is just a game..If you believe they can read your mind by all means be safe..Use the measures in the book or the online version.
ANYONE THAT HAS A QUESTION FOR ME CAN REPLY TO THIS POST AND I WILL RESPOND. PLEASE DON'T MAKE ASSUMPTIONS...
THE SENERIO - Group of 20 males, all convicted of minor viloence against females, to include one for throwing a glass
of water at his spouse. Others include verbal harassment, all are on probation, most supervised. Because the State cannot require a Lie Detector Test, completing the "Group" is a requirement of probation. Taking a Lie Detect mid way through is a requirement to complete the group. After completing weeks and weeks together the group gets brokrn into clicks which look out for each other.
WEEK 15 of GROUP - Most group members fail their poly and are forced to discuss their failure. ALL failed by OMISSION which is shared by the group counseler and the Probation officer. Depending on the offense most get 7 - 30 days in jail. Offenses include victim contact (wife or girlfriend), drinking, drugs, or offensive physical behavior (Throwing a romote controller at the wall, in the presence of another. During group the counselor is constantly refering to the poly with look of doom and gloom, asking if anyone has anything to get off their chest. My God we would want to find out when you take your poly.
THE SET UP - After you annouce that you have set an appointment date for your test, the game begins. From the counselor to the Probation Officer, everything ends with "IF YOU PASS YOUR POLY". Your counselor then contacts your polygrapher, and provides them of possible areas of non-compliance. (THIS IS IMPORTANT, YOUR POLYGRAPHER WILL BEGIN WITH THIS INFO). "Mine was drinking"
NIGHT BEFORE THE TEST - Went back over the free online stuff with my ex-wife, we both agreed anyone could pass. Puckering my butt and biting my tough seemed a bit extreme so I decided against it. Go to bed relaxed, and a got a good nights sleep.
TEST DAY - "TERRIFED" - As I arrived a the Polygraphers office, I was sweating and thought I would faint. I greeted my person wearing a suit, shook hands, and acted like he was a business contact. I made lots of eye contact. I told my Polygrapher that I was amazed that the Polygragh had gone the way of the computer (Ha! Ha!), how accurate it must be!
I also commented on his office, a tiny closet room without windows.
PRE-TEST - I am still not hooked up, the polygrapher takes out a sheet, and starts asking questions. The questions range
from Non-Revelant, Revelant, and possible control questions.
He asks so many questions and I am so nervous that I can't abosolutely pick out the control questions that I think he is going to use. I admit minor faults that are not punishable, for example, I admited to hurting a persons feelings out of anger
prior to the year 2000. Breaking the law by running the red light occationally by my home, etc.
THE STATEMENT - The polygrapher let's me know I am about to be hooked up to the truth machine, but feels it is important, to tell me a story about how a truthful person can show up as lying, he is my friend (Ha! Ha!) and would not want that to be me. THE STORY - He was testing a guy, he asked the guy if he had consumed any alcohol since being on probation. The Guy stated No, his machine went crazy, at the guys request, he asked the question two more times still the machine went crazy. But the polygrapher really believed the guy..Disconnected the machine..and they talked!!!!!!! After the guy remembered accidently picking up a beer on two occations, thinking it was a coke, and had taken a sip...The polygrapher re-hooked the Guy up and he PASSED.. I just shook my head and stated I understood. ( I KNEW IN MY HEART THAT THE MAN PROBABLY DID 20 DAYS IN JAIL FOR PROBATION VIOLATION, BECAUSE MOST PEOPLE DO BECOME TRUTHFUL AND CONFESS).
THE QUESTIONS - He asked 10 questions, with a good long pause between each.
On questions that I was not sure were a control question or a revelant question, I breathed normally, kept my body still. On the control questions I accelerated my breathing, just slightly and flexed my chest muscles for no more than 10 seconds. (I had only guessed 2, I later found out there were 6). We did this three times. What helped me was that I knew it was just a game, I am good at games.
THE RESULTS - After I was disconnected, he stares at his computer, occationally glances up trying to read your emotion. I smiled asked if I could see what the test looked like on the screen, he said sure. Wow, that's pretty neat, I commented..Went out had a smoke and came back and I was told I was one of the most honest people he had ever met.
(TIP: After the test never ask "Did I Pass", remember you did pass, only you can tell him different either verbally or with body langauge. I told my story, and people pass, to this day I am not so sure if counter measures are truly necessary, not if you are armed with the fact that it is just a game..If you believe they can read your mind by all means be safe..Use the measures in the book or the online version.
ANYONE THAT HAS A QUESTION FOR ME CAN REPLY TO THIS POST AND I WILL RESPOND. PLEASE DON'T MAKE ASSUMPTIONS...
Posted by PeterFonda
- Jan 22, 2003, 02:34 AMWhen I wrote my experience with my lie detector test, and how it has been greeted by wanna be cops that are totally innocent of any wrong doing makes me sick. First of all, Lie Detectors can not tell if you're lying or telling the truth. It is simply a confession tool. I can read your mind, I swear,
DO YOU BELIEVE?! AMEN! Prior to doing research on the polygragh if I were asked to take one, and had nothing to hide, I would have gladly taken one, and not found out about the flaws of the lie detector test. Anyway, since you folks have found your way here, either you have something to hide, failed a test (HOW?), passed a test or are in the poly biz. I am here because I passed mine, and just like giving my group this information I will give a detailed account of my situation to you! Why? The polygraph in my opinion is a great tool if used to get confessions, but when the polygrapher becomes God and his opinion is law..NO WAY! My next post will be my detailed experience.
DO YOU BELIEVE?! AMEN! Prior to doing research on the polygragh if I were asked to take one, and had nothing to hide, I would have gladly taken one, and not found out about the flaws of the lie detector test. Anyway, since you folks have found your way here, either you have something to hide, failed a test (HOW?), passed a test or are in the poly biz. I am here because I passed mine, and just like giving my group this information I will give a detailed account of my situation to you! Why? The polygraph in my opinion is a great tool if used to get confessions, but when the polygrapher becomes God and his opinion is law..NO WAY! My next post will be my detailed experience.
Posted by Marty
- Jan 18, 2003, 06:00 AMQuote from: Fair Chance on Jan 18, 2003, 02:34 AMYes, extremely disturbing. Perhaps even more disturbing than innocent people getting a lifelong DI in their record.
If your analysis is correct, it is very disturbing that the polygraph has given this offender a "free pass."
Quote
I would wonder how many successful offenders would post any threads boasting about their defeating the system without fear of being found through the set of circumstances that they describe in detail.
Good question. There was some but not too much detail, and what makes this more likely is that the described scenario is a one time polygraph that had already occurred in the middle of the program. This reduces the threat they would feel discussing this here. In any case, if true, it's another example of why screening polygraphs should be eliminated.
-Marty
Posted by Skeptic
- Jan 18, 2003, 03:02 AMQuote from: Fair Chance on Jan 18, 2003, 02:34 AM
Dear Marty,
I would be horrified to see this post placed in the non-fiction section. If your analysis is correct, it is very disturbing that the polygraph has given this offender a "free pass." I would wonder how many successful offenders would post any threads boasting about their defeating the system without fear of being found through the set of circumstances that they describe in detail.
Tough thoughts on a questionable scientific test.
The scary thing is that people getting by without detection on a polygraph is nothing new. The essential problem is reliance on a machine that simply can't live up to the hype.
Skeptic
Posted by Fair Chance
- Jan 18, 2003, 02:34 AMDear Marty,
I would be horrified to see this post placed in the non-fiction section. If your analysis is correct, it is very disturbing that the polygraph has given this offender a "free pass." I would wonder how many successful offenders would post any threads boasting about their defeating the system without fear of being found through the set of circumstances that they describe in detail.
Tough thoughts on a questionable scientific test.
Regards.
I would be horrified to see this post placed in the non-fiction section. If your analysis is correct, it is very disturbing that the polygraph has given this offender a "free pass." I would wonder how many successful offenders would post any threads boasting about their defeating the system without fear of being found through the set of circumstances that they describe in detail.
Tough thoughts on a questionable scientific test.
Regards.
Posted by Marty
- Jan 17, 2003, 05:46 PMFair chance,
That was my first reaction as well. On thinking it over, what does surprise me is the focus on responding to the control questions. The advice there is not just good, but cuts to the heart of exactly how the polygraph operates - so I doubt it is a pro-polygrapher's post intended to be subversive to the site's information - as so many clearly are.
Too many posts are made by people who claim to have read TLBTLD but haven't groked it and would quite possibly be unable to use CM's effectively. Perhaps that is due to it's tone, which is somewhat academic, as opposed to Doug's street level approach.
The thing that seems most odd is that the information would be shared with other offenders. This increases the individuals chance of getting caught through confessions of another. Still, bonds can form. This has been seen in PDs when cops face IA.
If true, what is most disturbing is that the polygraph is being utilized by lawbreakers to fool the POs. In this case the polygraph may be helping the guilty so it is not just limited to sometimes harming the innocent.
-Marty
That was my first reaction as well. On thinking it over, what does surprise me is the focus on responding to the control questions. The advice there is not just good, but cuts to the heart of exactly how the polygraph operates - so I doubt it is a pro-polygrapher's post intended to be subversive to the site's information - as so many clearly are.
Too many posts are made by people who claim to have read TLBTLD but haven't groked it and would quite possibly be unable to use CM's effectively. Perhaps that is due to it's tone, which is somewhat academic, as opposed to Doug's street level approach.
The thing that seems most odd is that the information would be shared with other offenders. This increases the individuals chance of getting caught through confessions of another. Still, bonds can form. This has been seen in PDs when cops face IA.
If true, what is most disturbing is that the polygraph is being utilized by lawbreakers to fool the POs. In this case the polygraph may be helping the guilty so it is not just limited to sometimes harming the innocent.
-Marty
Posted by Fair Chance
- Jan 17, 2003, 05:15 PMI think this post deserves to be placed in the fiction section.
Posted by PeterFonda
- Jan 17, 2003, 04:34 PM
I was found guilty by a jury of forcefully throwing my Ex-Wife out of my house, the children were present, it now becomes a felony. I am given 2 years of probation and ordered to attend a DAP Class as part of my probation. To complete the DAP class you must pass a lie detector test mid way through. No problem right? I drink, see my ex and kids, all of this is a No No. My test was coming up and I was scared to death. Bought Mr. Williams book online, and also down loaded the free version off of "The Truth Behind The Lie Detector". It worked like a charm, the person that tested me told me I was one of the most truthful people he had ever met. I passed on the info to my group, so far 8 more have passed. The man that leads the group commented that this isa rare situation indeed, most people fail. My answer to that and all of you is simple. If you have to take the test, never and I mean never omit to anything that could put you in hot water, think about what you are saying. Forget pitching your butt cheeks, you don't need to. Watch your breathing, on the control questions, slightly excellerate your breathing and slightly tighten your chest..Remember the Control Questions are questions that they expect you to lie about. Example, prior to 2000, have you abused someone either physically or verbally out of anger? You give the Tester a yes, he then tries
to pin down a few occations..During your test he ask you the control question followed by "Other than what we have discussed"..Please when you answer NO...we all know that is a lie, just show him it's a lie..Make the charts react.