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Posted by Doug Williams
- Dec 03, 2018, 11:08 AMQuote from: George_Maschke on Dec 03, 2018, 09:41 AMQuote from: AuntyAgony on Dec 03, 2018, 09:25 AMGeorge, never miss an opportunity to explain that Chad Dixon and Doug Williams were *not* convicted for the crime of teaching countermeasures, but for abetting the crime of lying to government officials.
Saying that Chad and Doug were convicted of "teaching countermeasures" is tantamount to saying that a lawyer who is sanctioned for perjury or witness tampering has been punished for "practicing law".
You're absolutely right. While it's true that CBP targeted Chad and Doug because they were teaching people how to pass or beat polygraph "tests," their undercover agents set up other "crimes" with which to charge them (wire fraud, obstruction of an agency proceeding, mail fraud, and witness tampering). It is not a crime to teach polygraph countermeasures.
You can attribute to me whatever motive you like but the fact remains that if I can teach a person how to "beat" a polygraph test and pass the test by knowing how to manipulate the charts so as to produce a "truthful" chart regardless of whether you're telling the truth or lying, that is prima facie evidence polygraph is absolutely worthless as a lie detector. My prosecution and conviction proves that I can in fact do this and further that the government knows damn good and well that I can. Which begs the question - why in the hell are they still relying on the polygraph to protect our national security and the integrity of the criminal justice system?
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Dec 03, 2018, 09:41 AMQuote from: AuntyAgony on Dec 03, 2018, 09:25 AMGeorge, never miss an opportunity to explain that Chad Dixon and Doug Williams were *not* convicted for the crime of teaching countermeasures, but for abetting the crime of lying to government officials.
Saying that Chad and Doug were convicted of "teaching countermeasures" is tantamount to saying that a lawyer who is sanctioned for perjury or witness tampering has been punished for "practicing law".
You're absolutely right. While it's true that CBP targeted Chad and Doug because they were teaching people how to pass or beat polygraph "tests," their undercover agents set up other "crimes" with which to charge them (wire fraud, obstruction of an agency proceeding, mail fraud, and witness tampering). It is not a crime to teach polygraph countermeasures.
Posted by Aunty Agony
- Dec 03, 2018, 09:25 AMGeorge, never miss an opportunity to explain that Chad Dixon and Doug Williams were *not* convicted for the crime of teaching countermeasures, but for abetting the crime of lying to government officials. It is possible, and indeed usual, to teach countermeasures without encouraging or sanctioning illegal activity.
But if you advocate, support, or teach methods for passing polygraph tests, and one of your clients announces his intention to lie during his test, your responsibility is the same as a doctor, priest, or lawyer with foreknowledge of an intended crime. If you can't deter your client from his nefarious aim, then you must report him to the authorities. Chad Dixon and Doug Williams were entrapped into failing this responsibility.
Saying that Chad and Doug were convicted of "teaching countermeasures" is tantamount to saying that a lawyer who is sanctioned for perjury or witness tampering has been punished for "practicing law".
But if you advocate, support, or teach methods for passing polygraph tests, and one of your clients announces his intention to lie during his test, your responsibility is the same as a doctor, priest, or lawyer with foreknowledge of an intended crime. If you can't deter your client from his nefarious aim, then you must report him to the authorities. Chad Dixon and Doug Williams were entrapped into failing this responsibility.
Saying that Chad and Doug were convicted of "teaching countermeasures" is tantamount to saying that a lawyer who is sanctioned for perjury or witness tampering has been punished for "practicing law".
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Dec 03, 2018, 08:54 AMBrad,
The story about CBP putting two people in prison for teaching polygraph countermeasure techniques is true. Their names are Chad Dixon and Doug Williams, and they were targeted in an investigation called Operation Lie Busters. I believe that I, too, was (unsuccessfully) targeted for entrapment in this investigation.
The story about CBP putting two people in prison for teaching polygraph countermeasure techniques is true. Their names are Chad Dixon and Doug Williams, and they were targeted in an investigation called Operation Lie Busters. I believe that I, too, was (unsuccessfully) targeted for entrapment in this investigation.
Posted by Brad S,
- Dec 03, 2018, 08:15 AMGeorge
Forgot one of the more interesting point of the interview.
The examiner told my friend that CBP has put two people in prison for teaching countermeasure techniques.
He replied he was not taught or schooled on beating a polygraph. To make matters worse he told the examiner that if the polygraph was so accurate what are you worried about.
If I was to guess that probably set the stage for his failure.
Forgot one of the more interesting point of the interview.
The examiner told my friend that CBP has put two people in prison for teaching countermeasure techniques.
He replied he was not taught or schooled on beating a polygraph. To make matters worse he told the examiner that if the polygraph was so accurate what are you worried about.
If I was to guess that probably set the stage for his failure.
Posted by Brad S,
- Dec 03, 2018, 08:07 AMGeorge
My friend ended up calling me later on that evening.
He was still quite upset over all of it as he is concerned it will impact him later on down the line.
He was insistent that I forgo this exam totally after his experience. He too had taken a polygraph and said that federal examiners were much different that police examiners.
The appointment was not timely as they were late in getting him in due to some kind of issue,
He said the length of time spent was far greater and the attempt to place fear in your mind even before the exam started.
I read that document you posted and there points on there he told me about. He had never been to AP but the examiner was trying to get him to admit otherwise. He also asked about some of the books that were available on AP that were from CBP.
I think what got his attention the most was the lack of experience or confidence this examiner showed, which he made up for by being sarcastic. He left the room a few times and came back quick as if he was getting assistance from someone.
I sent over that document to him to read to see and I am sure he will get back to me about it.
I am drafting my exit letter to the recruiter today and will send it off. If I learn more I will let you know or suggest he post to the site.
My friend ended up calling me later on that evening.
He was still quite upset over all of it as he is concerned it will impact him later on down the line.
He was insistent that I forgo this exam totally after his experience. He too had taken a polygraph and said that federal examiners were much different that police examiners.
The appointment was not timely as they were late in getting him in due to some kind of issue,
He said the length of time spent was far greater and the attempt to place fear in your mind even before the exam started.
I read that document you posted and there points on there he told me about. He had never been to AP but the examiner was trying to get him to admit otherwise. He also asked about some of the books that were available on AP that were from CBP.
I think what got his attention the most was the lack of experience or confidence this examiner showed, which he made up for by being sarcastic. He left the room a few times and came back quick as if he was getting assistance from someone.
I sent over that document to him to read to see and I am sure he will get back to me about it.
I am drafting my exit letter to the recruiter today and will send it off. If I learn more I will let you know or suggest he post to the site.
Posted by Brad S,
- Dec 03, 2018, 07:51 AM.
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Posted by George W. Maschke
- Dec 03, 2018, 04:15 AMQuoteI also see form your site that they might ask me if I looked at AP. When my friend cools off I will ask him what they asked him about AP.
Brad,
I would be interested to know what the CBP polygraph operator told your friend in this regard. CBP's "pre-test outline" for the recently adopted TES-C screening format instructs the operator to present the subject with the following spiel:
Quote6. Countermeasure Statement
• Tell me what you know about Polygraph.
• Have you conducted any research on Polygraph?
• If the examinee answers "No", let the examinee know that most information on the Internet is opinion based and often incorrect and misleading.
• Tell the examinee that they should NOT do anything to alter their polygraph examination.
• If the examinee says "Yes", they have conducted polygraph research, ask them what information did they learn and where did they get the information.
• Again, tell the examinee that "most information on the Internet is incorrect and misleading."
• Inform the examinee that they should NOT do anything to alter their polygraph examination.
As for any claim that the information presented here is false and misleading, note that our information is based in large part on the U.S. government's own documentation of its polygraph techniques. This forum is also open to polygraph operators, who are welcome to publicly correct any "incorrect and misleading" information they believe we present. You'll find that they're awfully silent.
Posted by Brad S,
- Dec 02, 2018, 11:48 PMGeorge
No need to respond to my comment regarding that CBI attachment.
I clicked on the title at the very top of that post and it took me to the actual page.
Once I scrolled down I saw the PDF file.
Viewed it for a few seconds, 32 pages, certainly not like my pre employment and IA polygraph, for which I passed. Someone must have transcribed that from a tape records as who could remember all of that detail!
No need to respond to my comment regarding that CBI attachment.
I clicked on the title at the very top of that post and it took me to the actual page.
Once I scrolled down I saw the PDF file.
Viewed it for a few seconds, 32 pages, certainly not like my pre employment and IA polygraph, for which I passed. Someone must have transcribed that from a tape records as who could remember all of that detail!
Posted by Brad S,
- Dec 02, 2018, 11:33 PMGeorge
Thanks for the advice.
I was recruited for this job to begin with so I am sure it will be easier to get out without much effort. I will not send a letter as not to leave a record as I have already wasted enough time completing applications and a host of other documents. I would like to get them back but they are nothing I am ashamed of as I have a good work record.
It did not take too much reading on your site to agree with you either. I cannot believe that people sat through those exams from start to finish.
Your last post on the CBI video is interesting. I will say that woman examiner was pleasant which certainly was not the case when I took my polygraph.
In your last post on that you refer to a CBI report file. That was not any attachment I could see. I was interested in seeing that as my polygraph ended up being 2 -3 pages as I viewed it one day when I was doing an audit of my personnel file.
Thanks again and have a good holiday!
Thanks for the advice.
I was recruited for this job to begin with so I am sure it will be easier to get out without much effort. I will not send a letter as not to leave a record as I have already wasted enough time completing applications and a host of other documents. I would like to get them back but they are nothing I am ashamed of as I have a good work record.
It did not take too much reading on your site to agree with you either. I cannot believe that people sat through those exams from start to finish.
Your last post on the CBI video is interesting. I will say that woman examiner was pleasant which certainly was not the case when I took my polygraph.
In your last post on that you refer to a CBI report file. That was not any attachment I could see. I was interested in seeing that as my polygraph ended up being 2 -3 pages as I viewed it one day when I was doing an audit of my personnel file.
Thanks again and have a good holiday!
Posted by Brad S,
- Dec 02, 2018, 09:50 PMThanks for the advice. I have been sick with the flu and went in sick the first time. The chased me out and were pretty mad. When I called out again Friday I was still hoarse and coughing some. The woman scheduler snapped and said do not come back in sick and rescheduled for two weeks later.
A was lucky to run into my friend before I went in that day. Even if I did not see him and hear some of his story, they would have bounced me back out the second I signed in.
I also see form your site that they might ask me if I looked at AP. When my friend cools off I will ask him what they asked him about AP.
If Ames and other spies of honorable mention passed the polygraph and still kept sensitive jobs, how can you rely on it.
I have taken two polygraphs in the past, the first one took 45 minutes and the other just about an hour. Passed both of them. I am hearing that these Border Patrol exams are going at least 2 hours or more.
What they should do is assign a percentage rank to all aspects of the hiring process and give the polygraph test no more than 25% of your total score.
A was lucky to run into my friend before I went in that day. Even if I did not see him and hear some of his story, they would have bounced me back out the second I signed in.
I also see form your site that they might ask me if I looked at AP. When my friend cools off I will ask him what they asked him about AP.
If Ames and other spies of honorable mention passed the polygraph and still kept sensitive jobs, how can you rely on it.
I have taken two polygraphs in the past, the first one took 45 minutes and the other just about an hour. Passed both of them. I am hearing that these Border Patrol exams are going at least 2 hours or more.
What they should do is assign a percentage rank to all aspects of the hiring process and give the polygraph test no more than 25% of your total score.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Dec 02, 2018, 09:02 PMBrad,
If I were in your position, I would withdraw my application for employment with U.S. Customs and Border Protection. This agency has the highest reported pre-employment polygraph failure rate of any federal agency (roughly 70%). Failing the polygraph with any federal agency results in a lifetime bar from employment with that agency and will harm your prospects of employment with other federal agencies (even for positions without a polygraph requirement).
Note also that the fact that you rescheduled your polygraph the same day you were scheduled to take it may be interpreted by your polygraph operator as an indication that you are a liar.
For more on the shortcomings of polygraphy, and why it is prudent to avoid any federal agency with a pre-employment polygraph requirement, see The Lie Behind the Lie Detector:
https://antipolygraph.org/pubs.shtml
If I were in your position, I would withdraw my application for employment with U.S. Customs and Border Protection. This agency has the highest reported pre-employment polygraph failure rate of any federal agency (roughly 70%). Failing the polygraph with any federal agency results in a lifetime bar from employment with that agency and will harm your prospects of employment with other federal agencies (even for positions without a polygraph requirement).
Note also that the fact that you rescheduled your polygraph the same day you were scheduled to take it may be interpreted by your polygraph operator as an indication that you are a liar.
For more on the shortcomings of polygraphy, and why it is prudent to avoid any federal agency with a pre-employment polygraph requirement, see The Lie Behind the Lie Detector:
https://antipolygraph.org/pubs.shtml
Posted by Brad S,
- Dec 02, 2018, 08:30 PMI am at the final phase of Border Patrol job. Polygraph was scheduled for last Friday. I called and rescheduled while still in the parking lot. One of the other applicants I met during the process came out mad as hell while I was in the parking lot. He worked 10 years for a large PD and said he failed the polygraph test. I asked him what went wrong and he said what did not go wrong. He claimed the person giving the test seemed unsure of himself and whenever he asked a question he got testy.
I have not given notice to my agency as I said I was going to explore this and maybe go all the way. Now I am thinking I should stay put as if I fail they will call my employer and I will be out in the cold.
Should I take the chance, or fold my cards and not put in my final notice??
I have not given notice to my agency as I said I was going to explore this and maybe go all the way. Now I am thinking I should stay put as if I fail they will call my employer and I will be out in the cold.
Should I take the chance, or fold my cards and not put in my final notice??