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Posted by Sergeant1107
- Jun 07, 2011, 11:12 PMQuote from: 4A414B1D182E0 on Jun 07, 2011, 05:31 PMHello all,I can only speculate with regards to federal agencies, but when I do background investigations for my municipal police agency, one of the first things I do is obtain copies of the applicants previous applications to other agencies, and copies of the background investigation done at other agencies.
I am new here and apologize if this was posted in the wrong area. I have similar fears as this thread title indicates.
I have gone through the FBI process that lead up to me attempting to take a polygraph exam. While trying to come clean and have a completely clear conscience, I have disclosed some things on my SF-86 and some more things with the polygraph interviewer. As result, I had not even been strapped to the machine. I was asked to sign a statement that would be sent to headquarters for review. Later, my contnigent offer of employment had been rescinded due my "personal conduct".
As I understand it, my official BI has not been initiated. However I would like to know if any adjudicative files, my sf-86 that was filled out, or any further statements or notes are now going to be visible for any future BI, or re-investigations. Can they be pulled from a National Agency check, Scatted Castles check, OPM check, etc.?
Any advice or information would be useful. I'm not looking to be deceptive in the future, however knowing if I should wait for someone to tell me I have a problem instead of asking someone at work if I have a problem and trying to rectify it with my current job would help me with my concerns. Any thoughts?
Thank you all for your time.
I imagine federal agencies do pretty much the same.
Posted by doe36
- Jun 07, 2011, 05:31 PMHello all,
I am new here and apologize if this was posted in the wrong area. I have similar fears as this thread title indicates.
I have gone through the FBI process that lead up to me attempting to take a polygraph exam. While trying to come clean and have a completely clear conscience, I have disclosed some things on my SF-86 and some more things with the polygraph interviewer. As result, I had not even been strapped to the machine. I was asked to sign a statement that would be sent to headquarters for review. Later, my contnigent offer of employment had been rescinded due my "personal conduct".
As I understand it, my official BI has not been initiated. However I would like to know if any adjudicative files, my sf-86 that was filled out, or any further statements or notes are now going to be visible for any future BI, or re-investigations. Can they be pulled from a National Agency check, Scatted Castles check, OPM check, etc.?
Any advice or information would be useful. I'm not looking to be deceptive in the future, however knowing if I should wait for someone to tell me I have a problem instead of asking someone at work if I have a problem and trying to rectify it with my current job would help me with my concerns. Any thoughts?
Thank you all for your time.
I am new here and apologize if this was posted in the wrong area. I have similar fears as this thread title indicates.
I have gone through the FBI process that lead up to me attempting to take a polygraph exam. While trying to come clean and have a completely clear conscience, I have disclosed some things on my SF-86 and some more things with the polygraph interviewer. As result, I had not even been strapped to the machine. I was asked to sign a statement that would be sent to headquarters for review. Later, my contnigent offer of employment had been rescinded due my "personal conduct".
As I understand it, my official BI has not been initiated. However I would like to know if any adjudicative files, my sf-86 that was filled out, or any further statements or notes are now going to be visible for any future BI, or re-investigations. Can they be pulled from a National Agency check, Scatted Castles check, OPM check, etc.?
Any advice or information would be useful. I'm not looking to be deceptive in the future, however knowing if I should wait for someone to tell me I have a problem instead of asking someone at work if I have a problem and trying to rectify it with my current job would help me with my concerns. Any thoughts?
Thank you all for your time.
Posted by cat
- May 16, 2008, 02:41 PMmls10 a polygragh can ruin your life. I know they can follow you for the rest of your life. I believe they are communist tactics, especailly were employment is concerned. Best of luck to you!
Posted by T.M. Cullen
- May 13, 2008, 09:33 PMQuoteHe didn't give me the opportunity to talk about things and work through things with me. I WANTED to because I knew how important it was for me to do that in order to pass.
THINKING and TALKING too much is what makes people FAIL!
Did you believe the polygraph was capable of detecting lies before you took the test?
TC
Posted by mls10
- May 13, 2008, 02:51 PMWell, yes, I understand your point. But there WERE things bothering me about some of the questions. I worry about everything, and I'm overly-conscientious. I thought about the same issues when I took my original poly years ago, and the polygrapher DID try to help me...and she worked through things with me that were bothering me. None of which, of course, were disqualifiers. For example, when I was asked about serious crimes, it bothered me because I thought about how I stole candy when I was young, etc. I know it's stupid that I think about that during that question, but I do and I can't help it. Just stupid inconsequential stuff...but things I actually feel bad about. At one point between cycles, I tried to tell him about this stuff, and he shut me down. I said, "I can't stop thinking about when I stole candy when I was young...and..." he cut me off and said, "did you kidnap, murder, or commit arson?" I said "No, but..." he interrupted again, and said, "then don't worry about it". He resumed the test, and of course, my conscience wasn't clear...he ran another cycle of questions, left the room, and told me I failed on the application question (ironically, the one question I felt very at ease with, so I don't understand how that happened) I wish I was more assertive and made him listen to me! I had no idea the test would be that short and there would be no other opportunity to do so. He didn't even tell me I was reacting to any of the questions. I thought I was doing fine, despite the things on my mind.
BUT, I was in my original poly for 5 hours...this one barely last an hour (and that included everything). He didn't give me the opportunity to talk about things and work through things with me. I WANTED to because I knew how important it was for me to do that in order to pass. I even told my husband the night before that I'd probably annoy the polygrapher because I'd end up telling him every little thing I've done wrong in my life. THAT was my intention, and that's why I feel like it was unfair. I do believe people fail because something bothers them, and there's something on their mind they feel bad about. It may be completely insignificant, but it's all relative. I feel cheated because I couldn't get that small stuff off my chest. Once I did that in my original poly, everything was fine and I passed without any issues. But that polygrapher elicited those things from me...she told me I was having trouble with a certain question and asked what was going on. This guy never did that. It just seemed like he had no interest in learning anything about me...I think almost everyone would fail if they weren't given an opportunity to talk about the things on their mind and work through it together. This whole things just sucks.
BUT, I was in my original poly for 5 hours...this one barely last an hour (and that included everything). He didn't give me the opportunity to talk about things and work through things with me. I WANTED to because I knew how important it was for me to do that in order to pass. I even told my husband the night before that I'd probably annoy the polygrapher because I'd end up telling him every little thing I've done wrong in my life. THAT was my intention, and that's why I feel like it was unfair. I do believe people fail because something bothers them, and there's something on their mind they feel bad about. It may be completely insignificant, but it's all relative. I feel cheated because I couldn't get that small stuff off my chest. Once I did that in my original poly, everything was fine and I passed without any issues. But that polygrapher elicited those things from me...she told me I was having trouble with a certain question and asked what was going on. This guy never did that. It just seemed like he had no interest in learning anything about me...I think almost everyone would fail if they weren't given an opportunity to talk about the things on their mind and work through it together. This whole things just sucks.
Posted by T.M. Cullen
- May 13, 2008, 02:09 PMmls10,
Maybe some of the polygraphers who frequent this board can offer some of their self-serving advice. A typical response goes something like this:
"Gee, there must have been something bothering you about that question. Probably because you didn't fully disclose everything. The polygrapher was there to HELP you. Why didn't you put your full trust in him? At any rate, no test is perfect. Now, go join the "pity" party with all the other whiners on this board who THINK they are "false" positives BTW, what makes you so ENTITLED to a job in LE? Have a nice day!"
Maybe some of the polygraphers who frequent this board can offer some of their self-serving advice. A typical response goes something like this:
"Gee, there must have been something bothering you about that question. Probably because you didn't fully disclose everything. The polygrapher was there to HELP you. Why didn't you put your full trust in him? At any rate, no test is perfect. Now, go join the "pity" party with all the other whiners on this board who THINK they are "false" positives BTW, what makes you so ENTITLED to a job in LE? Have a nice day!"
Posted by mls10
- May 13, 2008, 12:04 PMThanks. I guess the anticipation of the unknown is killing me. As I stated earlier, I've heard so many stories and there seem to be so many inconsistencies. I guess I'm trying to prepare myself for what I'm facing in the most strategic way possible. I'm assuming if they don't notify my current employer, I will be facing what you did in 3 years (my update for TS clearance). Also, I am trying to go to ICE and am completely through the process and waiting for the call. I know they could offer me conditional employment, and then suddenly reject me during the BI because of this. It's crazy because they don't even use the polygraph for their agents. I've been told by a couple adjudicators that this isn't insurmountable, and there's a decent chance I could still be hired. I'm not happy in my current job, but what if I stay because I can't get hired anywhere else, and then in 3 years during my update they decide to revoke my clearance based on this. I don't want to be out of a job. I can't believe how profoundly this exam is affecting me. It's just so unfair.
Any suggestions or other experiences/knowledge would be greatly appreciated.
Any suggestions or other experiences/knowledge would be greatly appreciated.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- May 13, 2008, 11:34 AMI doubt that requesting your FBI file under the Privacy Act would result in any adverse consequences beyond those you already face as a result of your polygraph results. If the polygrapher has reported that you admitted something that you didn't, you can contest that in writing, and you might also want to consult with a lawyer regarding what other recourse, if any, you might have.
Posted by mls10
- May 13, 2008, 11:05 AMThank you for the information. I have already written a letter...haven't sent it in yet, because I haven't gotten the formal failure notice. Strangely, I wasn't even interrogated post-interview. I am close friends with many polygraphers, and if they thought someone was being deceptive, they would grill the hell out of them. The whole thing is just weird.
I will request the report. Can requesting the report hurt me? Meaning, do you think it will draw undue attention to my situation? Also, in theory, if the polygraph was limited and only said that DI's a certain questions, but didn't make specific allegations, etc....will I be in a better position? If they did make specific allegations that aren't true, how should I handle that? Fortunately, I wasn't even tested on the national security section. I think that's a good thing, because that seems to draw the most attention, as in both of your cases.
I can't tell you how much I regret putting myself in this position. I think most people think the worst case scenario is they won't get the FBI job. No one I know in LE realizes the vast scope of a failed poly in their background.
I'm trying to stay hopeful regarding the whole thing. Time will tell.
I will request the report. Can requesting the report hurt me? Meaning, do you think it will draw undue attention to my situation? Also, in theory, if the polygraph was limited and only said that DI's a certain questions, but didn't make specific allegations, etc....will I be in a better position? If they did make specific allegations that aren't true, how should I handle that? Fortunately, I wasn't even tested on the national security section. I think that's a good thing, because that seems to draw the most attention, as in both of your cases.
I can't tell you how much I regret putting myself in this position. I think most people think the worst case scenario is they won't get the FBI job. No one I know in LE realizes the vast scope of a failed poly in their background.
I'm trying to stay hopeful regarding the whole thing. Time will tell.
Posted by T.M. Cullen
- May 13, 2008, 03:52 AMQuoteActually, no. Not ditto for NSA retests. Your experience is not typical. It's not unusual for NSA applicants who go on to be hired to sit for as many as three pre-employment polygraph sessions. In this respect, the FBI's and NSA's retest policies are not comparable.Quote
GM,
I was tested twice at Ft. Meade during my preemployment processing. Once by one polygrapher on one day, a second test the day after by another polygrapher. During the second test, they did the post test interrogation (where they start yelling at you and calling you a liar). I pulled the straps off and told her I thought the test was "bogus". Also mentioned how Alrich Ames had passed...etc.
To my surprise, I got a call a few months later from the personnel office wanting to know if I would be willing to do a third test in hawaii. I never requested a "retest". The hiring committee wanted me to get another chance.
You know as well as I, the polygraph folks ain't gonna pass anyone who erupts in anger during a post test and evokes the name of Mr. Eames. That's like putting sand in their condomBut they had to satisfy the hiring committee. I don't think they had any intention of passing me during the retest.
TC
Posted by George W. Maschke
- May 13, 2008, 02:26 AMT.C.,
Actually, no. Not ditto for NSA retests. Your experience is not typical. It's not unusual for NSA applicants who go on to be hired to sit for as many as three pre-employment polygraph sessions. In this respect, the FBI's and NSA's retest policies are not comparable.
Of course, the question of "retests" aside, judging a person's honesty and integrity on such a fraudulent procedure such as polygraph "testing" is fundamentally unfair from the outset.
Actually, no. Not ditto for NSA retests. Your experience is not typical. It's not unusual for NSA applicants who go on to be hired to sit for as many as three pre-employment polygraph sessions. In this respect, the FBI's and NSA's retest policies are not comparable.
Of course, the question of "retests" aside, judging a person's honesty and integrity on such a fraudulent procedure such as polygraph "testing" is fundamentally unfair from the outset.
Posted by T.M. Cullen
- May 13, 2008, 02:09 AMQuoteFBI pre-employment polygraph retests are typically a sham--intended to create only the appearance of fairness--and the examinee's "failing" is a foregone conclusion.
Ditto for NSA retests. I was retested by NSA at Camp Smith Hawaii the summer of 2000. I got the same impression (i.e. that they were just trying to appear "fair") This is even more the case when the hiring committee and security get into a "pissing contest" over the hiring of an applicant, as in my case.
TC
Posted by George W. Maschke
- May 13, 2008, 01:59 AMQuote from: 2B2A357776460 on May 12, 2008, 04:26 PM1. This information, according to FBI HQ, goes into the Scattered Castles database. Does anyone know what that is or how it is used for future security clearances?
The DNI Special Security Center describes it thus:
QuoteScattered Castles
The Intelligence Community Security Clearance Repository, commonly known as Scattered Castles, is an up-to-date, authoritative source of clearance and access information on approximately 2 million IC and Department of Defense personnel. Scattered Castles is hosted as Community of Interest (COI) on the Joint Worldwide Intelligence Communication System (JWICS). The scope of the Scattered Castles Program is to provide a common, trusted repository of individuals' clearance and accesses, easily accessible by a controlled set of security professionals within the IC with a valid need to verify clearance and access information.
Turning to your second question:
Quote2. I know it will go into the FBI HQ file, which is discovered through a National Agency Check (NAC). Will it just say I failed, or will it say I lied on my application (based on the polygraph?) Wouldn't they need to substantiate that information, beyond a screening poly?
My FBI polygraph report, including a list of all relevant questions and the examiner's opinion that I was deceptive with regard to all of them, was turned over to the Army's Central Clearance Facility when my security clearance was up for review. Based on that polygraph report, and without any substantiation whatsoever, the adjudicator who revoked my security clearance speculated, "Could subject be the operative in an international spy ring or a courier for a drug cartel?"
Quote3. What recourse do I have? Should I take a retest if offered one?
While there is no formal appeals process, you can and should write a letter to your applicant coordinator contesting the polygraph results. If you ask for a retest, it may well be offered. However, FBI pre-employment polygraph retests are typically a sham--intended to create only the appearance of fairness--and the examinee's "failing" is a foregone conclusion. Politically, the FBI polygraph unit cannot afford to be seen reversing more than a handful of decisions. To do so would undermine institutional confidence in their voodoo science.
That said, your status as a federal law enforcement officer places you in a different situation than the typical FBI applicant. If granted a retest, you just might be allowed to pass.
Whether or not you choose to subject yourself to this pseudoscientific ritual a second time, you should by all means contest the polygrapher's accusation of deception in writing, as your letter will be added to your FBI file (a permanent record) and will document the fact that you didn't, by your silence, tacitly agree with the false allegation.
You'll also want to file a Privacy Act request for your FBI file so that you will know just what your polygrapher put in his report. On occasion, applicants have found admissions attributed to them that they didn't make.
Posted by T.M. Cullen
- May 13, 2008, 01:21 AMmls10,
Keep checking back.
It is dinner time here in Hawaii now, bed time on the east coast.
The board moderator, GM, lives in Holland. I believe it is morning there now. So he should read your post soon.
TC
P.S. You may still have a chance since you did NOT make any "eye brow raising" admissions. You are at an advantage being in LE. You probably know about the "interrogation games" played in LE to get people to talk. Most people don't. And these same games are played during the polygraph.
Keep checking back.
It is dinner time here in Hawaii now, bed time on the east coast.
The board moderator, GM, lives in Holland. I believe it is morning there now. So he should read your post soon.
TC
P.S. You may still have a chance since you did NOT make any "eye brow raising" admissions. You are at an advantage being in LE. You probably know about the "interrogation games" played in LE to get people to talk. Most people don't. And these same games are played during the polygraph.
Posted by mls10
- May 13, 2008, 12:06 AMWow, that's quite a story. Crazy, in fact. ..thanks for sharing it with me. I have heard that they pay particular attention to failed polygraphs that deal with counterintelligence/national security issues. I'm assuming that was the case with you.
It doesn't seem like there's much consistency to this whole failed poly thing. I personally know of some agents who have failed polys in the past, and are working as agents at different agencies. I don't think it's true that you're automatically blacklisted...I think it depends on the agency, and likely the person who is doing the adjudicating. Everywhere I turn I get a different story....just doesn't seem consistent and I'm trying to find some answers!
Does anyone else have any insight or knowledge on this topic? The anticipation of the unknown is killing me! And, is there any way I can help myself? It just doesn't seem like there's any recourse to this, and I feel so helpless.
Any advice/insight is greatly appreciated!
It doesn't seem like there's much consistency to this whole failed poly thing. I personally know of some agents who have failed polys in the past, and are working as agents at different agencies. I don't think it's true that you're automatically blacklisted...I think it depends on the agency, and likely the person who is doing the adjudicating. Everywhere I turn I get a different story....just doesn't seem consistent and I'm trying to find some answers!
Does anyone else have any insight or knowledge on this topic? The anticipation of the unknown is killing me! And, is there any way I can help myself? It just doesn't seem like there's any recourse to this, and I feel so helpless.
Any advice/insight is greatly appreciated!