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Posted by freestate
 - Oct 03, 2009, 07:23 PM
yay! Thanks for responding.  I may PM you after I sit on this over the weekend to see how I personally would approach using counters on an R/I test if I were the one taking it. . . . thanks so much.

My other thought was for said relative just to use counters on EVERY relevant question - think that it's a billion to one chance than ANYONE could be a drug dealer, spy, thief, or forger all-in-one.  But then I thought that might tip off the polygrapher as to countermeasures being used. . .
Posted by George W. Maschke
 - Oct 02, 2009, 01:42 PM
You're much closer now. Keep in mind that with the relevant/irrelevant technique, the polygraph operator is looking for consistent, specific, and significant reactions to any particular relevant question. The logic behind the countermeasure approach outlined in TLBTLD is to prevent reactions to any single relevant question from standing out. Note that there are no "control" questions, with the exception that if the examinee's overall level of reactivity is low, an un-reviewed (in the pre-test) control question might be added in an attempt to gauge the examinee's physiological responsiveness.

Of course, it's all bullshit, and I suspect that even many NSA polygraphers understand that it's bullshit. It's not clear to what extent NSA polygraphers actually rely on their charts in deciding whether to pass or flunk examinees. It is not uncommon for examinees to be subjected to as many as three polygraph sessions, and behavioral countermeasures may ultimately be more effective than physical ones.
Posted by freestate
 - Oct 01, 2009, 09:28 AM
Quote from: George_Maschke on Oct 01, 2009, 12:29 AMfreestate,

The outlined countermeasure strategy for the R/I technique is indeed succinctly stated. But I'm not going to explain it for you. If you don't understand it, don't attempt it.

With regard to the stim test (which is not a directed-lie test, but rather a peak of tension test), reactions on it are not directly compared to reactions on charts collected during the "in-test" phase.

My best advice to you, given the level of understanding reflected in your posts, would be not to use any countermeasures beyond the behavioral countermeasures outlined in Chapter 4.

Alright George,
I'm going to try to understand this one last time - So let me see if I have understood this. . .   please tell me if I'm right or wrong.

In order to counter a R/I test, one must make strong responses to TWO different sets of relevant questions in two different charts

(.i.e, respond strongly - using measures to 2 different types of relevant questions -  say using drugs and espignoage in one chart. . .and falsifying background info and stealing from work in another chart).

Is this it in a nutshell?

Thanks for any response.
Posted by George W. Maschke
 - Oct 01, 2009, 12:29 AM
freestate,

The outlined countermeasure strategy for the R/I technique is indeed succinctly stated. But I'm not going to explain it for you. If you don't understand it, don't attempt it.

With regard to the stim test (which is not a directed-lie test, but rather a peak of tension test), reactions on it are not directly compared to reactions on charts collected during the "in-test" phase.

My best advice to you, given the level of understanding reflected in your posts, would be not to use any countermeasures beyond the behavioral countermeasures outlined in Chapter 4.
Posted by freestate
 - Sep 30, 2009, 08:23 PM
Quote from: George_Maschke on Sep 29, 2009, 11:31 PMfreestate,

You are conflating the relevant/irrelevant and directed-lie CQT techniques. Please see Chapter 3 of TLBTLD, where both are explained.

Yes, I see that.

you're telling me what I already know - what I really want from you is how to use countermeasures on a R/I polygraph. You have explainations in your pdf about all the other tests, except this one.  And unfortunately NSA uses this one.

So..... can you (or anyone) answer this question  --

If one produces stronger responses to the stim test in the R/I test and to the control questions . . .. rather than the RELEVANT questions. . . will one "pass" the polygraph?

The quote I had above about "producing different responses to two relevant charts. . ." or something along those lines  is  what is damn confusing to me!!!    That is the only line I can find in your whole pdf about how to beat a R/I poly ------  and then you told me if you're unsure about it, don't use countermeasures!  THAT IS NOT VERY HELPFUL GEORGE!!  (I'm not shouting, I'm very frustrated!)

From what I hear from said relative, they do a directed-lie portion during the pre test so I figure is s/he produces stronger responses during THAT portion of the test - the relevant questions will not appear as strong during the in-test phase.

IS THIS ASSUMPTION CORRECT??
Posted by George W. Maschke
 - Sep 29, 2009, 11:31 PM
freestate,

You are conflating the relevant/irrelevant and directed-lie CQT techniques. Please see Chapter 3 of TLBTLD, where both are explained.
Posted by freestate
 - Sep 29, 2009, 04:40 PM
[You can prevent such a pattern from occurring by simply producing responses to two differing groups of two relevant questions within the different chart presentation 

[/quote]

I guess I am a total idiot, but is there anyone out there than can explain the above statement regarding the R/I poly given at NSA?  I really searched this forum all day yesterday trying to find the answer so I wouldn't have to repost already responded-to information but there is nothing there (that I can find) that breaks this down for me.

Said relative is going to be going for 3rd poly and should have read TLBTLD previous to this, understood, but I think learned the lesson in not doing so! 

Can ANYONE (but I'd love to hear from anyone who took the NSA poly recently - like in 2008-09) just tell me to what specific type of questions (control, relevant, or irrelevant) is one supposed to use countermeasures on an Relevant/Irrelevant test

If I know the answer to that, then I think s/he has a shot!

THANKS FOR ANY HELP!
Posted by freestate
 - Sep 29, 2009, 04:35 PM
Quote from: freestatechica on Sep 29, 2009, 04:33 PM
Quote from: George_Maschke on Sep 29, 2009, 01:13 AMTo the best of my knowledge, yes, the NSA continues to use the relevant/irrelevant "test" as its primary polygraph screening technique.

If you do not understand the suggested countermeasure approach to the R/I technique, then do not attempt it. In any event, the behavioral countermeasures outlined in Chapter 4 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector may well be of greater assistance.

George,
I think I do understand it - from what I can summarize in TLBTLD (and I will ask said relative if they in fact direct one to answer falsely to questions). . . the R/I technique involves directed lie control questions.

So - and correct me if I'm wrong - the control questions (at least initially) will be obvious because they are going to be reviewed before the actual test.

I guess a better way of asking this is ---

since NSA is part of the Dept of Defense, this is going to be a directed-lie control question test correct?

Countermeasures should be employed

1) as soon as s/he is hooked up to the appratus (the breathing countermeasures)

and

2) countermeasures should be used during the directed-lie control questions (which I'm assuming is in the stim part of the pretest)


OR should it be just #1 and then countermeasures used during the the in-test phase when recognizing a control question.

Thanks for any help!
Posted by George W. Maschke
 - Sep 29, 2009, 01:13 AM
To the best of my knowledge, yes, the NSA continues to use the relevant/irrelevant "test" as its primary polygraph screening technique.

If you do not understand the suggested countermeasure approach to the R/I technique, then do not attempt it. In any event, the behavioral countermeasures outlined in Chapter 4 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector may well be of greater assistance.
Posted by freestate
 - Sep 28, 2009, 12:47 AM
I'm reviewing TLBTLD to study with said relative and I want to be clear on something -

Does NSA currently use the Rel/Irrel test or are they using the CQT now? 
IF they are using Rel/Irrel  - I'm confused as to the following  (regarding subjective interpretation and looking for patterns in responses - p. 151 under "Countermeasures and the R/I test) -

You can prevent such a pattern from occurring by simply producing responses to two differing groups of two relevant questions within the different chart presentation 

This reads like Greek to me right now - I thought the two differing groups were 1) relevant and 2) irrelevant  - outside of control questions - and I'm not sure what "two differing groups of two relevant questions" means. . .

Please help!  THANKS!