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A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by T.M. Cullen
- Sep 28, 2009, 03:54 AMI'll say it again.
The whole point of a polygraph is to get information out of you, not to see if you are telling the truth or not. It's a "fishing" expedition.
They try to convince you that the machine can see through you, and tell if you are telling the truth, or not. And it's not hard as most people come in predisposed to believe it, as polygraph accuracy is a prevalent "pop" cultural myth. Then, they tell you the machine has "examined your soul" and says you are lying. So talk boy, talk. Filthy little liar!
Solution:
1. Realize the machine can't tell if you are lying or not. Any false positive can tell you that. Unfornutately, only AFTER they've been conned.
2. Just laugh (internally), when the polygrapher says you are lying.
3. DO NOT "guess" why the holy instrument might be calling you a dirty little fibber. Do NOTHING, except reiterate that you answered the questions truthfully.
4. If asked why the machine is saying otherwise, answer "I have no idea, but I am being truthful".
5. If they try to bluff you by saying "Well, you're NOT getting this job then...blah blah blah". Reply, "Oh well, nothing I can do about that. But I am telling the truth and NOTHING is bothering me about my ANSWER to that question."
6. Persist no matter how many hours, or number of tests it takes. The key is to tell them NOTHING they can use to disqualify you from getting the job.
Of course, if you ARE lying on the test questions, then you are a dirty little liar and SHOULD NOT get the job! Otherwise, don't let some "asshole with a little training" steal a career away from you!
Pass this on to anybody you know who might have to take the polygraph in the future. Share you experience.
TC
The whole point of a polygraph is to get information out of you, not to see if you are telling the truth or not. It's a "fishing" expedition.
They try to convince you that the machine can see through you, and tell if you are telling the truth, or not. And it's not hard as most people come in predisposed to believe it, as polygraph accuracy is a prevalent "pop" cultural myth. Then, they tell you the machine has "examined your soul" and says you are lying. So talk boy, talk. Filthy little liar!
Solution:
1. Realize the machine can't tell if you are lying or not. Any false positive can tell you that. Unfornutately, only AFTER they've been conned.
2. Just laugh (internally), when the polygrapher says you are lying.
3. DO NOT "guess" why the holy instrument might be calling you a dirty little fibber. Do NOTHING, except reiterate that you answered the questions truthfully.
4. If asked why the machine is saying otherwise, answer "I have no idea, but I am being truthful".
5. If they try to bluff you by saying "Well, you're NOT getting this job then...blah blah blah". Reply, "Oh well, nothing I can do about that. But I am telling the truth and NOTHING is bothering me about my ANSWER to that question."
6. Persist no matter how many hours, or number of tests it takes. The key is to tell them NOTHING they can use to disqualify you from getting the job.
Of course, if you ARE lying on the test questions, then you are a dirty little liar and SHOULD NOT get the job! Otherwise, don't let some "asshole with a little training" steal a career away from you!
Pass this on to anybody you know who might have to take the polygraph in the future. Share you experience.
TC
Posted by PolyHater77
- Sep 27, 2009, 07:00 PMIs it possible to dispute what was said during a poly interview?
The more I think about things, the more I realize I just said a whole lot of stuff that frankly were guesses. The reason I say this is that I was asked to recall details from insignificant events that occurred 5+ years ago. I really couldn't remember the details, but I was making stuff up just to give the polygrapher an answer to the question. I didn't want to be called a liar anymore so I was giving answers to questions that I really didn't know the answer to. I know, that was really really dumb.
I couldn't even remember my polygrapher's name halfway through the interview, but yet I'm asked for details about insignificant events in my life that happened years ago. I could spend the next week thinking about it and I still wouldn't remember.
It just burns me that the stuff I said in the interview is considered "the facts" even though it's really a gross exaggeration of what the real facts are.
The more I think about things, the more I realize I just said a whole lot of stuff that frankly were guesses. The reason I say this is that I was asked to recall details from insignificant events that occurred 5+ years ago. I really couldn't remember the details, but I was making stuff up just to give the polygrapher an answer to the question. I didn't want to be called a liar anymore so I was giving answers to questions that I really didn't know the answer to. I know, that was really really dumb.
I couldn't even remember my polygrapher's name halfway through the interview, but yet I'm asked for details about insignificant events in my life that happened years ago. I could spend the next week thinking about it and I still wouldn't remember.
It just burns me that the stuff I said in the interview is considered "the facts" even though it's really a gross exaggeration of what the real facts are.
Posted by mrfire1701
- Sep 24, 2009, 07:02 AMI took my polygraph.. didn't admit to anything when they asked me about 2 questions that were bothering me. I found out that my poly was successful however the results were labeled as a (SPR) Specific Physiological Reaction..
any idea what this means and how it could effect my clearance?
any idea what this means and how it could effect my clearance?
Posted by T.M. Cullen
- Sep 23, 2009, 11:02 PMQuoteAs you suggest, polygraphers have bureaucratic and monetary incentives to inflate their confession rates. They are then not required to inform examinees of what they allegedly confessed to, nor to disclose tapes of these sessions. The lack of disclosure and transparency built into several layers of the process, in combination with direct and indirect rewards for obtaining confessions, creates a system of perverse incentives.
As you'd expect, polygraph operators have posted some pretty lame reasons here why they couldn't possibly provide copies of tape recorded polygraph interrogation sessions.
We all know the real reason, though. They wouldn't be able to get away with the shenanigans they get away with other wise. Then there are the one way mirrors. God only knows what depraved things they do behind those! Just kidding!
Posted by Katelyn Sack
- Sep 23, 2009, 02:34 PMYou don't even have to give them the rope to hang you, because there are no effective checks or balances on the "confessions" they log.
As you suggest, polygraphers have bureaucratic and monetary incentives to inflate their confession rates. They are then not required to inform examinees of what they allegedly confessed to, nor to disclose tapes of these sessions. The lack of disclosure and transparency built into several layers of the process, in combination with direct and indirect rewards for obtaining confessions, creates a system of perverse incentives.
These incentives are moreover not in opposition to, but in line with the purpose of the polygraph, CVSA, and like screening systems. False positives, false confessions, and falsified records are not the system gone awry -- they are the system functioning the only way it could possibly function while justifying its existence.
As you suggest, polygraphers have bureaucratic and monetary incentives to inflate their confession rates. They are then not required to inform examinees of what they allegedly confessed to, nor to disclose tapes of these sessions. The lack of disclosure and transparency built into several layers of the process, in combination with direct and indirect rewards for obtaining confessions, creates a system of perverse incentives.
These incentives are moreover not in opposition to, but in line with the purpose of the polygraph, CVSA, and like screening systems. False positives, false confessions, and falsified records are not the system gone awry -- they are the system functioning the only way it could possibly function while justifying its existence.
Posted by T.M. Cullen
- Sep 21, 2009, 10:35 PMMy point was, even if tou got the job, you'd be going through this every 5 years.
Interestingly enough, as a NSA employee, people there is a review board which adjudicates any adverse employee decisions by the agency. The relevant DOD review board directive specifically prohibits adverse employment action based SOLELY on a bad polygraph CHART. Any info volunteered by an employee DURING the polygraph CAN BE USED.
This explains why the probe, prod, deceive, cajole and engage in theatrics to get info during the polygraph. In fact, that is the actual GOAL of an NSA polygraph. If you react to questions and as a result have a "bad chart", they know they must get some sort of admission/info from the applicant/employee to have any "ammo" when going to the board. A bad chart alone ain't enuf! In effect, you have to give them the rope to hang you.
Advice: Don't fall for their tactics, and WATCH WHAT YOU SAY!!
Interestingly enough, as a NSA employee, people there is a review board which adjudicates any adverse employee decisions by the agency. The relevant DOD review board directive specifically prohibits adverse employment action based SOLELY on a bad polygraph CHART. Any info volunteered by an employee DURING the polygraph CAN BE USED.
This explains why the probe, prod, deceive, cajole and engage in theatrics to get info during the polygraph. In fact, that is the actual GOAL of an NSA polygraph. If you react to questions and as a result have a "bad chart", they know they must get some sort of admission/info from the applicant/employee to have any "ammo" when going to the board. A bad chart alone ain't enuf! In effect, you have to give them the rope to hang you.
Advice: Don't fall for their tactics, and WATCH WHAT YOU SAY!!
Posted by PolyHater77
- Sep 21, 2009, 09:24 PMI do realize that. However, unless they place most of the weight on the CI portion(which I had no problems with) I think at this point I'd be shocked if I get through the adjudication process. I was under the impression they are pretty strict about who they issue clearance to.
Posted by T.M. Cullen
- Sep 21, 2009, 08:36 PMWell, if you get the job, you'll have to go through it every five years? Did you realize that?
TC
TC
Posted by PolyHater77
- Sep 21, 2009, 06:32 PMWhat really bugged me was how deep they tend to probe when you admit to something. If you admit to doing something illegal, expect about 50 additional questions that by the time you're done with that line of questioning, you feel like some low life criminal, even if you're nothing close to the sort. If you tell them you shoplifted a candy bar, they'll make you feel like Bernie Madoff by the end of the test.
At one point I interrupted the polygrapher, because I felt that the questions were getting so incredibly detailed, that I was just putting myself into an unrecoverable situation. The response I then got was something along the lines of "we just want to make sure we cover all the bases so you don't feel any doubt during the exam". Of course I went along with it, and am utterly horrified that I did so.
The polygrapher almost tried to act like a friend who I should have my complete confidence in. I heard lots of things like "oh don't worry we hear a lot worse" and made it sound like the things I did were completely ok.
I just can't live with this amount of stress for too much longer. I'm getting very little sleep, barely eating, and constantly worrying. Never in my wildest dreams would I imagine being in this situation. I'm trying to convince myself that if law enforcement really wanted me, they would've gotten me on my way out the door, or at least within the first week after the test.
I just want to be able to breathe easy again, and I'm not sure if and when I'll be able to do that.
At one point I interrupted the polygrapher, because I felt that the questions were getting so incredibly detailed, that I was just putting myself into an unrecoverable situation. The response I then got was something along the lines of "we just want to make sure we cover all the bases so you don't feel any doubt during the exam". Of course I went along with it, and am utterly horrified that I did so.
The polygrapher almost tried to act like a friend who I should have my complete confidence in. I heard lots of things like "oh don't worry we hear a lot worse" and made it sound like the things I did were completely ok.
I just can't live with this amount of stress for too much longer. I'm getting very little sleep, barely eating, and constantly worrying. Never in my wildest dreams would I imagine being in this situation. I'm trying to convince myself that if law enforcement really wanted me, they would've gotten me on my way out the door, or at least within the first week after the test.
I just want to be able to breathe easy again, and I'm not sure if and when I'll be able to do that.
Posted by T.M. Cullen
- Sep 20, 2009, 10:21 PMIt's hard to say. Just learn from this, and drop any naivete you might have next time any law enforcement or security type wants to "talk with you".
I got a call about a year after my NSA from my friendly neigbhorhood FBI Special Agent. They wanted to talk with me about some issues that came out in during the poly. And, of course, I had to coax it out of them for about 5 minutes. I told them I'd call them the next day after I conferred with an attorney (Mark Zaid).
I called them back the next day and asked 1) Is this need to meet with me connected to an ongoing investigation of possible criminal activity. She said "no" (which i found out later via FOIA was a freaking lie), and 2) Is it legally mandatory that I meet with you. Again, she answered "no".
I then politely declined the "invitation" to meet. She asked why wouldn't I want to meet, to which I replied "why WOULD I?" We played cat and mouse for awhile and I never met with them. The matter was dropped as was their investigation.
Bottom Line: If you DO end up with a LE agency contacting you, DO NOT meet or have anything whatsoever to do with them, until you've conferred with a lawyer. A lawyer might end up telling you there is NO WAY they can prosecute you based on what was said in an employment polygraph. At the very least, there would be legal complications.
Unless of course, you meet with them and blab again like you did during the polygraph.
TC
P.S. Be sure to pass on you the "tricks" the polygraph interrogator used on you to anybody who might possibly end up taking a polygraph (i.e. spread the word)!
I got a call about a year after my NSA from my friendly neigbhorhood FBI Special Agent. They wanted to talk with me about some issues that came out in during the poly. And, of course, I had to coax it out of them for about 5 minutes. I told them I'd call them the next day after I conferred with an attorney (Mark Zaid).
I called them back the next day and asked 1) Is this need to meet with me connected to an ongoing investigation of possible criminal activity. She said "no" (which i found out later via FOIA was a freaking lie), and 2) Is it legally mandatory that I meet with you. Again, she answered "no".
I then politely declined the "invitation" to meet. She asked why wouldn't I want to meet, to which I replied "why WOULD I?" We played cat and mouse for awhile and I never met with them. The matter was dropped as was their investigation.
Bottom Line: If you DO end up with a LE agency contacting you, DO NOT meet or have anything whatsoever to do with them, until you've conferred with a lawyer. A lawyer might end up telling you there is NO WAY they can prosecute you based on what was said in an employment polygraph. At the very least, there would be legal complications.
Unless of course, you meet with them and blab again like you did during the polygraph.
TC
P.S. Be sure to pass on you the "tricks" the polygraph interrogator used on you to anybody who might possibly end up taking a polygraph (i.e. spread the word)!
Posted by PolyHater77
- Sep 20, 2009, 07:22 PMI really wish I had found this site before I took my NSA Poly test.
Anyway, I fell for probably every trick in the book, and began to spill my guts. Not only did I feel extremely ashamed during the test, but now I'm extremely worried, since some of the things I admitted to could possibly get me in trouble.
I'm paranoid beyond belief right now. I keep imagining the cops are going to come knock on my door at any minute. I'm not even worried about the job anymore, I'm worried about my life being over.
I know that the polygrapher kept saying that I shouldn't worry since my family or friends will never know and that I was protected by some privacy act. But I'm thinking they also have some obligation to report certain things to law enforcement that they coax out of people during these tests.
Am I just freaking out too much? Or does everything that's said in that room really stay in that room?
Anyway, I fell for probably every trick in the book, and began to spill my guts. Not only did I feel extremely ashamed during the test, but now I'm extremely worried, since some of the things I admitted to could possibly get me in trouble.
I'm paranoid beyond belief right now. I keep imagining the cops are going to come knock on my door at any minute. I'm not even worried about the job anymore, I'm worried about my life being over.
I know that the polygrapher kept saying that I shouldn't worry since my family or friends will never know and that I was protected by some privacy act. But I'm thinking they also have some obligation to report certain things to law enforcement that they coax out of people during these tests.
Am I just freaking out too much? Or does everything that's said in that room really stay in that room?