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A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by landers
- Sep 11, 2009, 09:43 AM"if you fail and have to retake and then pass, where is the validity in that???"
Very good statement, showing that the machine is a total fraud. It makes you wonder why they don't re give the test over and over again when someone passes it in order to try to fail them. If the machine can give false negatives, surely it can also give false positives.
Also, remember that almost every sane person knows how to answer correctly every question thrown at them. I have had to take several pre-employment psychological test. I have never forgotten the wisdom in the statement: I KNOW the correct way to answer every question.
Do you ever get depressed? NO
Have you ever stolen anything from a company you worked for? NO
Have you ever taken drugs? NO (true in my case)
Do you go to church regularly? YES (you are an atheists)
Do you have a tendency to give up some times? NO
Do you like animals? YES (you kicked your dog that morning)
Very good statement, showing that the machine is a total fraud. It makes you wonder why they don't re give the test over and over again when someone passes it in order to try to fail them. If the machine can give false negatives, surely it can also give false positives.
Also, remember that almost every sane person knows how to answer correctly every question thrown at them. I have had to take several pre-employment psychological test. I have never forgotten the wisdom in the statement: I KNOW the correct way to answer every question.
Do you ever get depressed? NO
Have you ever stolen anything from a company you worked for? NO
Have you ever taken drugs? NO (true in my case)
Do you go to church regularly? YES (you are an atheists)
Do you have a tendency to give up some times? NO
Do you like animals? YES (you kicked your dog that morning)
Posted by freestate
- Sep 07, 2009, 09:27 AMQuote from: PhilGainey on Sep 02, 2009, 05:08 PMQuote1) Is this for a LE agency, or CIA/NSA/FBI?
TC
NSA
Posted by Fair Chance
- Sep 03, 2009, 11:11 PMThese posts represent words to live by, words to be employed by, and words to refuse employment by. As any good fisherman knows, you can only hook a fish if you can get it to open its mouth and swallow the bait. You can entice the fish with all of your finesse, knowledge, and experience but it must open its mouth to swallow the bait. The polygraph is just another hook and reel combination. To an "examiner", the applicant is just another fish to be caught. It is sport and it is game. There is no science to it, just a sick, sad, sport which catches human beings at their most vulnerable moment: the desire to serve their country and get a job.
No regards, no emotions, and no regrets by the fishermen. It is just a job.
No regards, no emotions, and no regrets by the fishermen. It is just a job.
Posted by T.M. Cullen
- Sep 02, 2009, 05:08 PMQuote1) what is the chance of getting the same poly administrator again?
They usually give you a different examiner.
Quote2) Is the "retest" the same length and type of questions as the first go-around, or do they try to focus on the "suspect" areas?
My retest pretty much started over. Pre-test interview (watch what you say there too), data collection with questioning between readings. No post test theatrics.
Quote3) Any recommendations for remaining relaxed and calm - other than what is in the online book - for the retest?
The machine measures sudden CHANGES to your nervous system's sympathetic response when asked a question, regardless of what the person's baseline state of nervousness/calm. Don't try to go "Zen". Just stay alert in anticipation of the next question. IOW, don't doze off or day dream between questions. Don't even worry about it.
The more convinced your relative is that the machine is NOT measuring truthfulness/deception, and that "reactions" don't mean a thing, the better off he/she will be. One friend I have said he just sat there and though how ridiculous the whole thing was!
If I was interrogating you, and told you that my "spirit guide" was in the room, and could communicate to me whether you were lying or not, would you feel intimidated? What if I had a parrot in the room and I claimed I could talk to it and figure out whether you were lying. Would you be scared? Think along those terms. The whole process relies on the test subject being INTIMIDATED by the machine. Don't be.
Is this for a LE agency, or CIA/NSA/FBI?
TC
Posted by freestate
- Sep 02, 2009, 08:17 AMQuote from: PhilGainey on Sep 01, 2009, 10:40 PMQuoteJust remember, don't trust them if they offer you a retest. Don't be belligerent either, just trust them or buy their line that they are there "to help you get through this...."
Study TLBTLD, and thoroughly learn and understand what employment screening polygraphs are all about. Kind of like studying up on car salesman "tricks and tactics" before visiting a car lot.
Good luck,
TC
P.S. I have this FBI SA's report on file obtained through a FOIA request.
Thanks, TC - good to know. Any thoughts on the 3 questions I asked in my previous post - like to get your (and others opinion).
Posted by T.M. Cullen
- Sep 01, 2009, 10:40 PMQuoteSeveral coworkers of said relative have failed and re-taken - sometimes 2 or 3 times - and then passed. So I really don't know what to make of this whole thing - if you fail and have to retake and then pass, where is the validity in that???
Good question. Short answer is that the polygraph is not scientifically valid. It actually an interrogation DISGUISED as a scientific test.
Once a person totally understands that, a lot of things start to "make sense". Why the examiner seemed to "twist my answers", or "kept asking the same question over and over", or "seemed to be trying to make me unsure of my answer"...etc. These are all interrogation techniques. Not a problem. If you are applying for "sensitive" job, they have an obligation to interrogate you. Just realize that THIS is what they are doing. They are INTERROGATING you not TESTING you.
Just don't play their game. Stick to your answers. Don't be talkative. Don't speculate on why your blood pressure, breathing or other autonomic function fluctuated when asked a certain question. Just answer that question truthfully and stick to it.
Try not to answer open ended questions, like "tell me about your trip to Mexico"...etc. Ask them to be more specific. Say "what do you mean?", or "what would you like to know about my trip to mexico?"
At the NSA and CIA, really good applicants, and employees (taking a periodic "update" poly) are sometimes tested and tested and tested until they pass. It's a game! Long time employees who are used to it, know to just "hang in there" and just don't "give'm any rope". They just sit through it and think about baseball, their upcoming vacation trip, what a joke the whole thing is...etc.
In my case (NSA), the hiring committee and security (poly folks) got into a "pissing contest" over my hiring. I don't blame the poly folks, as I got so pissed I ripped off the straps and used some, uh, colorful nautical terms, to let them know what I thought of their so-called test. I think I even mentioned the false negatives of "Aldrich Ames" and used the word "bogus"(not recommended
So, I'm pretty sure I made some "enemies" in their office that day.Anyway, to my surprise, six months later, I got a call from HR offering me a retest! But is was just to make the hiring committee happy. They had no intention of passing me. I had disparaged their profession and offended their god. I had ripped off the "sacred straps" and blasphemed against the "holy box" .
So they were just going through the motions, and trying to dig up some "dirt" they could take gleefully back to the hiring board. So bet it!I must have really pissed them off, because they reported me to the FBI, who investigated me for poss espionage and found absolutely NOTHING! The SA I talked with was even apologetic about it.
Just remember, don't trust them if they offer you a retest. Don't be belligerent either, just trust them or buy their line that they are there "to help you get through this...."
Study TLBTLD, and thoroughly learn and understand what employment screening polygraphs are all about. Kind of like studying up on car salesman "tricks and tactics" before visiting a car lot.
Good luck,
TC
P.S. I have this FBI SA's report on file obtained through a FOIA request.
Posted by freestate
- Sep 01, 2009, 06:46 PMQuote from: George_Maschke on Aug 19, 2009, 12:40 AMBased on your description, it's not clear whether your relative passed or failed. In any event, before any possible "re-test," your relative will want to inform him- or herself about polygraphy. A good place to start is with AntiPolygraph.org's free book, The Lie Behind the Lie Detector, which may be downloaded as a 1 mb PDF file here:
https://antipolygraph.org/lie-behind-the-lie-detector.pdf
OK, so about 2, 2 1/2 weeks later, said relative is told today that s/he failed the poly. S/he had an inkling, I guess, right after it was administered b/c the examiner said that it "didn't look good" to her, but that she didn't make the final determination.
So. . .. s/he may have a re-poly. I have informed said relative of the book here that you posted and said relative has printed it out and is studying it (has been, actually).
A few quick questions -
1) what is the chance of getting the same poly administrator again?
2) Is the "retest" the same length and type of questions as the first go-around, or do they try to focus on the "suspect" areas?
3) Any recommendations for remaining relaxed and calm - other than what is in the online book - for the retest?
Several coworkers of said relative have failed and re-taken - sometimes 2 or 3 times - and then passed. So I really don't know what to make of this whole thing - if you fail and have to retake and then pass, where is the validity in that???
Any other suggestions from anyone regarding retesting would be appreciated!
Posted by freestate
- Aug 19, 2009, 02:12 PMQuote from: George_Maschke on Aug 19, 2009, 12:40 AMBased on your description, it's not clear whether your relative passed or failed. In any event, before any possible "re-test," your relative will want to inform him- or herself about polygraphy. A good place to start is with AntiPolygraph.org's free book, The Lie Behind the Lie Detector, which may be downloaded as a 1 mb PDF file here:
https://antipolygraph.org/lie-behind-the-lie-detector.pdf
Thanks for this information - there have been so many in his/her office that have been polyed, failed, and then had re-dos that I thought I would ask my initial posting.
Do you have any idea how long it takes AFTER the polygraph is done to find out if one has passed or failed it - what is the next step (who has the adjuctive determination authority here?). is it weeks, months? the relative has already completed and passed the BI check.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Aug 19, 2009, 12:40 AMBased on your description, it's not clear whether your relative passed or failed. In any event, before any possible "re-test," your relative will want to inform him- or herself about polygraphy. A good place to start is with AntiPolygraph.org's free book, The Lie Behind the Lie Detector, which may be downloaded as a 1 mb PDF file here:
https://antipolygraph.org/lie-behind-the-lie-detector.pdf
https://antipolygraph.org/lie-behind-the-lie-detector.pdf
Posted by freestate
- Aug 18, 2009, 06:55 PMA relative took a poly and was told - at the end, when still strapped up but the machine was not recording - that there was some sort of "spike" regarding a question about drugs. Then conversation then turned to the administrator asking if there was "anything that he/she needed to know??" "What could possibly explain that?"
if said relative fails and gets a re-do, how should he/she approach questions, but particularly the drug topic as it is bound to come up again, that produce a "spike."
From what I understand from said relative, all was "very good, looked great - except for this one topic here. . ." (i.e., the drug issue). From what I've read on this forum and others, drugs are one of the favorite topics-du-jour during polys. Also a fun game is trying to get people to 'confess" to things that don't exist by saying things like, "wow, that's interesting. . . maybe you could help me out by explaining THIS. . . ."
So. . . if all was so great, could this spike cause said relative to be denied? Said relative has already had BI and the poly was the next step to getting a TSC.
Thanks!
if said relative fails and gets a re-do, how should he/she approach questions, but particularly the drug topic as it is bound to come up again, that produce a "spike."
From what I understand from said relative, all was "very good, looked great - except for this one topic here. . ." (i.e., the drug issue). From what I've read on this forum and others, drugs are one of the favorite topics-du-jour during polys. Also a fun game is trying to get people to 'confess" to things that don't exist by saying things like, "wow, that's interesting. . . maybe you could help me out by explaining THIS. . . ."
So. . . if all was so great, could this spike cause said relative to be denied? Said relative has already had BI and the poly was the next step to getting a TSC.
Thanks!