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A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by fatbob
- Jun 08, 2009, 10:01 AMQuote from: PhilGainey on Mar 30, 2009, 05:56 PMThanks for the cited report.What about the people and lives that are harmed by the false positives?
Yes, it's all true. The ironic thing is, polygraphers have posted here regularly advising people to "just tell the truth". They admit that false positives happen (reluctantly) but claim (base mostly on the methane gas coming out their arses) that they are "rare", and mainly due to "bad operators". If only THEY had been the examiner, blah, blah, blah.
Did your polygraph operator make any claims as to accuracy of the polygraph? Did he get aggressive or accusatory with you?
TC
Posted by Crossroads21
- May 13, 2009, 09:08 AMMy spouse failed the poly on the same question. :-? I thought I was going to be the first one posting about the poly in regards to relationship testing, as mostly what I saw was in regards to employment. Thank you for sharing this with us. I may start a new thread and tell our story in relation to the poly. Reading your story though, has been a big eye opener.
The sad thing is, my spouse has admitted being unfaithful and busted for pornography addiction. Understand this is a very tough place for a female to be in, so please show Julie some grace alright? If she's ever been duped in a past relationship, your going out with that other female hit a wound in her life. We don't always create each others pain, but we certainly have a way of finding it.
Thanks,
Crossroads
The sad thing is, my spouse has admitted being unfaithful and busted for pornography addiction. Understand this is a very tough place for a female to be in, so please show Julie some grace alright? If she's ever been duped in a past relationship, your going out with that other female hit a wound in her life. We don't always create each others pain, but we certainly have a way of finding it.
Thanks,
Crossroads
Posted by T.M. Cullen
- Mar 31, 2009, 06:02 PMProblem is, they take whatever info you give them and distort it, and blow it out of proportion to justify the chart. This is why it is important to KNOW that a reaction does not necessarily mean deception, or that you are hiding something. And NOT to get into a guessing game with the polygrapher as to why you are reacting. It's just an interrogation technique designed to extract info out of you.
The NAS report concluded the polygraph has "utility", not "validity". IOW, it can be used to screw innocent but uninformed people. The purpose of this website is to inform the uninformed. And judging by the way polygraphers have squealed and ranted over this site, I'd say GM is going a pretty good job.
But the main point to remember is that the machine measures ANS reactions, which may or may not indicate deception. Polygrapher know that, but lie about it. You should take whatever they say with the same skepticism you would a used car deal trying to sell you a used car. Forget what you've seen on "Dr. Phil" or "NCIS".
TC
The NAS report concluded the polygraph has "utility", not "validity". IOW, it can be used to screw innocent but uninformed people. The purpose of this website is to inform the uninformed. And judging by the way polygraphers have squealed and ranted over this site, I'd say GM is going a pretty good job.
But the main point to remember is that the machine measures ANS reactions, which may or may not indicate deception. Polygrapher know that, but lie about it. You should take whatever they say with the same skepticism you would a used car deal trying to sell you a used car. Forget what you've seen on "Dr. Phil" or "NCIS".
TC
Posted by Jsne24
- Mar 31, 2009, 03:37 PMDo examiners get on here to proclaim that polygraphs are useful? The only use I can see out of using them is getting a confession prior to taking this so called "lie detector" test, based on fear of failing. And it is that reason that polygraphs will never be shut down in my uneducated opinion.
Posted by T.M. Cullen
- Mar 30, 2009, 09:45 PMQuoteDuring the interview he explained how polygraphs were about a 90% accuracy.
Did you ask him what he based that figure on? Doesn't matter, he would have just bullshitted you.
We just had a polygrapher post here that it was an over-generalization to say that polygraph operators claim the polygraph machine detects deception. He posted under numerous user names. He was eventually exposed. Went to his website and saw that he quite clearly makes that claim. Oh well.
Did the scheister you went to make you sign a bunch of disclaimers?
TC
Posted by Jsne24
- Mar 30, 2009, 06:38 PMDuring the interview he explained how polygraphs were about a 90% accuracy. After the test when he said "I'm sorry but I cannot clear you of this test" I said "you have got to be kidding me" Then he states "all I can do is call the charts like I see them" Looking down on me as if I am some liar!
He then proceeded to shake my hand and then offered my girlfriend a business card and said "call me if there is anything I can do for you." Hmmm kind of strange how he offered to help her, eh?
It was at this moment I had a mental image of me flying over the desk and choking this guy. It was only mental though... I acted kind, professional, and exited the office.
I also thought it was strange that he could deliver no explanation to me. It was more like I got your money, you test is over, and that's it. Excuse me, but I just gave you $300 cash (which I am aware it is under priced) 50 minutes ago and now this is the end of our meeting??
He then proceeded to shake my hand and then offered my girlfriend a business card and said "call me if there is anything I can do for you." Hmmm kind of strange how he offered to help her, eh?
It was at this moment I had a mental image of me flying over the desk and choking this guy. It was only mental though... I acted kind, professional, and exited the office.
I also thought it was strange that he could deliver no explanation to me. It was more like I got your money, you test is over, and that's it. Excuse me, but I just gave you $300 cash (which I am aware it is under priced) 50 minutes ago and now this is the end of our meeting??
Posted by T.M. Cullen
- Mar 30, 2009, 05:56 PMThanks for the cited report.
Yes, it's all true. The ironic thing is, polygraphers have posted here regularly advising people to "just tell the truth". They admit that false positives happen (reluctantly) but claim (base mostly on the methane gas coming out their arses) that they are "rare", and mainly due to "bad operators". If only THEY had been the examiner, blah, blah, blah.
Did your polygraph operator make any claims as to accuracy of the polygraph? Did he get aggressive or accusatory with you?
TC
Yes, it's all true. The ironic thing is, polygraphers have posted here regularly advising people to "just tell the truth". They admit that false positives happen (reluctantly) but claim (base mostly on the methane gas coming out their arses) that they are "rare", and mainly due to "bad operators". If only THEY had been the examiner, blah, blah, blah.
Did your polygraph operator make any claims as to accuracy of the polygraph? Did he get aggressive or accusatory with you?
TC
Posted by Jsne24
- Mar 30, 2009, 03:16 PMJust wanted to add to my previous post. My girlfriend actually found this article.. This directly relates to what I just stated. I felt entirely comfortable answering my "control question"
* False positives.
Just as the guilty can be deemed innocent, the innocent can be deemed guilty. It is quite common for studies to show that 40% to 50% of innocent examinees "fail" the polygraph test (Lykken 1998; NRC2003).
Ironically, the more truthful a person is, the more likely it is that they will fail the polygraph test. The reason being that they are very comfortable answering the control questions and so do not produce a marked physiological response to them. When they are questioned about a crime, for example, they can become very nervous about facing such questions and produce a physiological response that is more pronounced than they did to the unthreatening control questions: this may be interpreted as lying.
The problem of false positives/negatives is studied more commonly with regard to investigation of specific incidents rather than with screening; however, the problem is an inherent one with polygraph testing. This, for example, will impact on companies which use the polygraph to pre-screen potential employees: they could be rejecting the most honest and truthful candidates due to false positive testing; the very people they want.
It should be quite clear that more serious consequences are likely if polygraph testing were ever to be used in sex abuse cases or for the supervision of paedophiles as a public protection measure.
The rest of this article can be found here...
- http://www.ukskeptics.com/cms/lie-detectors-the-truth-about-the-polygraph/
* False positives.
Just as the guilty can be deemed innocent, the innocent can be deemed guilty. It is quite common for studies to show that 40% to 50% of innocent examinees "fail" the polygraph test (Lykken 1998; NRC2003).
Ironically, the more truthful a person is, the more likely it is that they will fail the polygraph test. The reason being that they are very comfortable answering the control questions and so do not produce a marked physiological response to them. When they are questioned about a crime, for example, they can become very nervous about facing such questions and produce a physiological response that is more pronounced than they did to the unthreatening control questions: this may be interpreted as lying.
The problem of false positives/negatives is studied more commonly with regard to investigation of specific incidents rather than with screening; however, the problem is an inherent one with polygraph testing. This, for example, will impact on companies which use the polygraph to pre-screen potential employees: they could be rejecting the most honest and truthful candidates due to false positive testing; the very people they want.
It should be quite clear that more serious consequences are likely if polygraph testing were ever to be used in sex abuse cases or for the supervision of paedophiles as a public protection measure.
The rest of this article can be found here...
- http://www.ukskeptics.com/cms/lie-detectors-the-truth-about-the-polygraph/
Posted by Jsne24
- Mar 30, 2009, 02:33 PMAs I stated earlier, this question felt tricky to me...
"Prior to 2009 have you lied to any family member or friend to deliberately hurt them?" NO
If someone were to ask me this and I could elaborate without only saying yes or no my answer would go like this..
"YES I have lied to people prior to 2009, but NO I have not lied to people prior to 2009 to deliberately hurt them"
I typically lie to NOT hurt someone or to avoid arguments...
I hope I am explaining this enough so you all understand what I mean. I do not feel like I lied to the examiner by answering NO... So does this mean he assumed my answer was a lie, when in fact it was not? The reason is because I do not feel like I have lied to deliberately hurt someone that's why I answered NO.
This is so confusing! Polygraphs are the devil in disguise!!!! Thanks for everyone sharing and continuing to share their input. I guess all i am trying to do is make sense of what just happened to me. I'm still waiting to wake up from a bad dream.
"Prior to 2009 have you lied to any family member or friend to deliberately hurt them?" NO
If someone were to ask me this and I could elaborate without only saying yes or no my answer would go like this..
"YES I have lied to people prior to 2009, but NO I have not lied to people prior to 2009 to deliberately hurt them"
I typically lie to NOT hurt someone or to avoid arguments...
I hope I am explaining this enough so you all understand what I mean. I do not feel like I lied to the examiner by answering NO... So does this mean he assumed my answer was a lie, when in fact it was not? The reason is because I do not feel like I have lied to deliberately hurt someone that's why I answered NO.
This is so confusing! Polygraphs are the devil in disguise!!!! Thanks for everyone sharing and continuing to share their input. I guess all i am trying to do is make sense of what just happened to me. I'm still waiting to wake up from a bad dream.
Posted by T.M. Cullen
- Mar 30, 2009, 04:51 AMQuote"Are the lights on in this room?" YES
----20 second pause
"Are you sitting in a chair?" YES
----20 second pause
As you probably already know, these are irrelevant questions.
Quote"Prior to 2009 have you lied to any family member or friend to deliberately hurt them?" NO (this one felt tricky to me. I have lied to people, but it was never to deliberately hurt them)
----20 second pause
This is a "control" question. The examiner actually wants you to lie on this question, so he can compare your reaction to this "lie" to you reaction to the relevant questions. It is to THIS type of question that one would employ a countermeasure, such as biting the side of your tongue, counting backwards in threes...etc.
Quote"Other than (partners name) have you had any sexual relations with any other women since July?" NO
----20 second pause
"Have you ever cheated on (partners name)?" NO
----20 second pause
These are obviously "relevant" questions. As ridiculous as it sounds, if you react to either of the above questions MORE than the "control" question, they assume you are lying!
Funny thing is, if you lied on the question they said you lied on, then, logically, you must have lied on the other.
TC
Posted by Jsne24
- Mar 29, 2009, 11:55 PMQuoteSo tell us more about your polygraph. The "test" itself. Could you tell us exactly how it went, to the best of your recollection?
I will try to explain this to the best of my ability.
Me and my partner showed up to the office to go forward with this test. The examiner interviewed us both together. He never separated us during the interview process. We both told him all we wanted to do was prove my loyalty since the time we have dated.
He stated some questions were relevant and some were irrelevant and went on about how this test will work...
On to the test... He asked my partner to step out of the room while he hooked me up to the polygraph. The questions sarted something like this.
"Are the lights on in this room?" YES
----20 second pause
"Are you sitting in a chair?" YES
----20 second pause
"Prior to 2009 have you lied to any family member or friend to deliberately hurt them?" NO (this one felt tricky to me. I have lied to people, but it was never to deliberately hurt them)
----20 second pause
"Other than (partners name) have you had any sexual relations with any other women since July?" NO
----20 second pause
"Have you ever cheated on (partners name)?" NO
----20 second pause
Now a 5 minute break while he did something on the computer....
Repeated all questions again as stated above. Then the results, he said "I'm sorry but I cant clear you of this test"
I showed strong reactions to this question "Other than (partners name) have you had any sexual experiences with any other women since July?"
All of the other questions I showed no reaction to at all... It's just crazy! I have never had any other relations with any woman in any way since me and my partner first became involved.
That's about all I can describe of the test to the best of my ability. I know the interview process untill the time the test was finished took exactly 50 minutes. I signed my papers at 5:05
pm and signed upon completion at 5:55 pm
Posted by T.M. Cullen
- Mar 29, 2009, 06:44 PMQuoteI'm confused about scheduling another polygraph. How else could I convince someone? But if I were to fail would this be the final nail in the coffin of my relationship??
Maybe the problem IS that you are focused on "convincing" someone of your innocence. But you are innocent until proven guilty. What evidence does your girlfriend that you had sex with another woman?
First step would be to educate your girlfriend about the truth behind the polygraph. For example, ask her, if she thinks the test is so conclusive, why is it not per se allowed as evidence in a court of law? Some people are failed by one polygrapher, yet passed by another. Why is that?
So tell us more about your polygraph. The "test" itself. Could you tell us exactly how it went, to the best of your recollection?
I would be very instructive.
TC
Posted by Jsne24
- Mar 28, 2009, 11:04 PMThanks for the responses! If you could only imagine my state of mind right now. I never in a million years thought I would have to take a polygraph. My stupid actions made this a reality... I never in a billion years thought a polygraph could falsely accuse me of something I didn't do. I walked into that place so confident, believing in the polygraph system (though my research was minimal)
I wish now I had done more research, but in the same sentence if one were to refuse a polygraph, unfortunately society would look at them with guilt. Even myself would have looked at them with guilt, if I ever saw a court case to where a suspected person declined a polygraph I automatically assumed their guilt. Just like the rest of society would. Until now...
I can say now the tables have turned, dramatically!!! I am still in a state of shock from what happened. The HUGE margaritas are causing a little ease on the situation, momentarily.
I'm confused about scheduling another polygraph. How else could I convince someone? But if I were to fail would this be the final nail in the coffin of my relationship??
All I can do now is educate myself on this BULLSHIT scam! It pains me to know there are thousands of people out there in the real world getting robbed of their relationships, jobs, place in life, and most of all their sanity. Reality to someone is what they believe in their mind and it is so unfortunate that a polygraph can persuade what someone believes.
There are a million things that feel bad, but none top the feeling of being falsely accused. I think that alone, in my opinion, is one of the worst experiences to go through.
I am not very educated about polygraphs, but I want to help! What can I do to get involved? I am willing to do anything!!! I would hate to see another human in my shoes go through what I just experienced.
Until then all I can do is research, research, research!!!
Thanks again!
Keep the responses coming!!
I wish now I had done more research, but in the same sentence if one were to refuse a polygraph, unfortunately society would look at them with guilt. Even myself would have looked at them with guilt, if I ever saw a court case to where a suspected person declined a polygraph I automatically assumed their guilt. Just like the rest of society would. Until now...
I can say now the tables have turned, dramatically!!! I am still in a state of shock from what happened. The HUGE margaritas are causing a little ease on the situation, momentarily.
I'm confused about scheduling another polygraph. How else could I convince someone? But if I were to fail would this be the final nail in the coffin of my relationship??
All I can do now is educate myself on this BULLSHIT scam! It pains me to know there are thousands of people out there in the real world getting robbed of their relationships, jobs, place in life, and most of all their sanity. Reality to someone is what they believe in their mind and it is so unfortunate that a polygraph can persuade what someone believes.
There are a million things that feel bad, but none top the feeling of being falsely accused. I think that alone, in my opinion, is one of the worst experiences to go through.
I am not very educated about polygraphs, but I want to help! What can I do to get involved? I am willing to do anything!!! I would hate to see another human in my shoes go through what I just experienced.
Until then all I can do is research, research, research!!!
Thanks again!
Keep the responses coming!!
Posted by T.M. Cullen
- Mar 28, 2009, 06:21 PMQuoteI am in the process of scheduling another test to hopefully overcome this issue. THIS HAS MADE MY LIFE A DISASTER!!!
Why schedule another sham test? So some other poly-scheister can make an easy $500?
People, myself included, have been led to believe in the popular myth of the "lie detector". We had to learn the truth behind the myth the hard way.
If your lady is not happy about the results of the polygraph test, tell her you are willing to set up an appointment with psychic Sylvia Browne!
It would be funny if it wasn't so tragic!
TC
P.S. Slowly, but surely, we are getting the word out.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Mar 28, 2009, 04:07 AMYou need to understand that polygraph "testing" has no scientific basis. It is a fraudulent procedure that depends not on science, but on trickery, as it entails the polygraph operator lying to and otherwise deceiving the person being "tested."
While the polygraph operator you hired will have told you that all questions must be answered truthfully, and that any hint of doubt or deception will be detected by his highly sensitive polygraph instrument, he will have secretly assumed that your answers to certain questions, called "control" questions, were less than truthful.
Your reactions to the question, "Since July have you had any sexual encounter with any other woman other than your partner?" will have been compared to your reactions to a question like, "Have you ever deliberately lied to someone who loved and trusted you?" You will have been steered into a denial regarding this latter question, perhaps with a warning that the kind of person who would lie to someone who loved and trusted them is the same kind of person who would cheat on a partner and then lie about it. If you made admissions to having lied, after a sermon about honesty, the question would have been rephrased to something like, "Other than what you told me, did you ever deliberately lie to someone who loved and trusted you?" Your denial at this point is still assumed to be a lie, or at best an answer about which you cannot be completely certain and which should cause a reaction.
If the relevant question about infidelity causes you to breath more erratically, to sweat more profusely, or causes your heart rate and blood pressure to change more so than does the "control" question about lying to someone who trusted you, then you fail. Conversely, if you show stronger reactions to the question about lying to someone who loved and trusted you, then you pass.
The procedure also includes irrelevant questions such as "Are the lights on in this room?" The polygrapher falsely explains that these questions provide a baseline for truth, as the true answer is obvious. (The polygrapher may have also falsely described these questions as "control" questions.) But in fact, such irrelevant questions are not scored, and they merely serve as "buffers" between pairs of relevant and "control" questions.
As I mentioned before, this simplistic procedure has no scientific basis, and to make matters worse, it's inherently biased against the truthful. Think about it: the more honestly one answers the control questions, and as a result feels less anxiety when answering them, the more likely one is to fail!
For a thorough debunking of polygraphy, and a more detailed explanation of polygraph procedure, see our e-book, The Lie Behind the Lie Detector (1 mb PDF).
I think that rather than throwing good money after bad for another séance with a polygraph chartgazer, you'd be better off educating yourself (and your girlfriend) about polygraphy. See the statement of Gary Smith for an example of the harm that misplaced faith in the pseudoscience of polygraphy has caused to couples' relationships:
https://antipolygraph.org/statements/statement-028.pdf
While the polygraph operator you hired will have told you that all questions must be answered truthfully, and that any hint of doubt or deception will be detected by his highly sensitive polygraph instrument, he will have secretly assumed that your answers to certain questions, called "control" questions, were less than truthful.
Your reactions to the question, "Since July have you had any sexual encounter with any other woman other than your partner?" will have been compared to your reactions to a question like, "Have you ever deliberately lied to someone who loved and trusted you?" You will have been steered into a denial regarding this latter question, perhaps with a warning that the kind of person who would lie to someone who loved and trusted them is the same kind of person who would cheat on a partner and then lie about it. If you made admissions to having lied, after a sermon about honesty, the question would have been rephrased to something like, "Other than what you told me, did you ever deliberately lie to someone who loved and trusted you?" Your denial at this point is still assumed to be a lie, or at best an answer about which you cannot be completely certain and which should cause a reaction.
If the relevant question about infidelity causes you to breath more erratically, to sweat more profusely, or causes your heart rate and blood pressure to change more so than does the "control" question about lying to someone who trusted you, then you fail. Conversely, if you show stronger reactions to the question about lying to someone who loved and trusted you, then you pass.
The procedure also includes irrelevant questions such as "Are the lights on in this room?" The polygrapher falsely explains that these questions provide a baseline for truth, as the true answer is obvious. (The polygrapher may have also falsely described these questions as "control" questions.) But in fact, such irrelevant questions are not scored, and they merely serve as "buffers" between pairs of relevant and "control" questions.
As I mentioned before, this simplistic procedure has no scientific basis, and to make matters worse, it's inherently biased against the truthful. Think about it: the more honestly one answers the control questions, and as a result feels less anxiety when answering them, the more likely one is to fail!
For a thorough debunking of polygraphy, and a more detailed explanation of polygraph procedure, see our e-book, The Lie Behind the Lie Detector (1 mb PDF).
I think that rather than throwing good money after bad for another séance with a polygraph chartgazer, you'd be better off educating yourself (and your girlfriend) about polygraphy. See the statement of Gary Smith for an example of the harm that misplaced faith in the pseudoscience of polygraphy has caused to couples' relationships:
https://antipolygraph.org/statements/statement-028.pdf