- Welcome to AntiPolygraph.org Message Board.
A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by polytek
- Sep 12, 2008, 09:09 AMQuote from: pigface on Sep 11, 2008, 01:32 PMI don't know Cliff, how are things in South Africa?
I give up Bob, how are they ?
Posted by pailryder
- Sep 11, 2008, 01:32 PMI don't know Cliff, how are things in South Africa?
Posted by polytek
- Sep 11, 2008, 07:54 AMQuote from: pigface on Sep 10, 2008, 05:45 PMbsce711
Thank you for your service to our country.
Pailryder,
Thank you for your appreciation of servicemen.
Now, who's gonna suck up to me ?
Posted by T.M. Cullen
- Sep 10, 2008, 06:06 PMQuoteQuit being a baby. EVERYONE goes through a poly at Ft Meade...and the military is not for everyone, but suck it up...you signed the paper and all of the citizens we protect are paying for you to work everyday and get a college education. The poly they give at NSA is NOT a lifestyle. They just wanna make sure you don't want to give info to anyone or try to sabotage any part of NSA mission. RELAX,and get your crap together.
SSgt, USAF
Ft Meade MD
I used to think the same thing.
You'd change your tune if you failed the test despite telling the truth. And, as a consequence, lost your access, and worst yet, your colleagues at the fort started thinking (erroneously) that you were some kind of spy or something. Then there is your family, friends, neighbors...etc. All in the name of fake science and bureaucratic efficiency.
Most important is the fact that the intel community relies far to much on the test, mainly for bureaucratic reasons. As a result, they put our national security at risk.
Check out the following story concerning the Kunia RSOC (my last duty station):
http://www.infosecnews.org/pipermail/isn/2007-December/015670.html
The people involved must have managed to pass their polygraphs. In fact, some of the biggest spies and criminals in history have passed polygraphs. While honest, trustworthy people are routinely branded as being just the opposite. Other than that, it's a pretty good test.
Like George said, most military folks detailed at NSA pass their polygraphs, and most people actually think the test to be accurate. It is one of those cases where you have to come up "false positive" to really appreciate the truth.
T.M. Cullen
CTI1 USN(ret)
P.S. Never criticize a person until you've "walked a mile in his shoes".
That way, when you do criticize him, you'll be a mile away from him, and YOU'LL HAVE HIS SHOES!!!!!
Posted by pailryder
- Sep 10, 2008, 05:45 PMbsce711
Thank you for your service to our country.
Thank you for your service to our country.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Sep 10, 2008, 01:23 PMQuote from: pigface on Sep 10, 2008, 12:58 PMQuit being a baby. EVERYONE goes through a poly at Ft Meade...and the military is not for everyone, but suck it up...you signed the paper and all of the citizens we protect are paying for you to work everyday and get a college education. The poly they give at NSA is NOT a lifestyle. They just wanna make sure you don't want to give info to anyone or try to sabotage any part of NSA mission. RELAX, and get your crap together.
SSgt, USAF
Ft Meade MD
bsce711,
You're right that everyone at Fort Meade goes through a polygraph. And I think that everyone seeking a position of public trust has an ethical obligation to answer relevant questions truthfully. Pigface's past drug use -- even if admitted -- is not likely to prevent him/her from holding the requisite TS/SCI security clearance, so long as it pre-dates his/her military service.
As you point out, military personnel detailed to NSA are subjected to counterintelligence-scope polygraph examinations rather than the "lifestyle" polygraphs that regular employees face. So pigface in all likelihood won't be polygraphed about his/her past drug use. In fact, virtually all military personnel who don't make damaging admissions pass their CI-scope polygraph examinations. Federal polygraph examiners know that the base rate for espionage is very low, so politically, they cannot afford to fail more than a small number of examinees on counterintelligence issues per year.
But it's worth keeping in mind that polygraph "testing" is junk science. Polygraphy has no scientific basis, is inherently biased against the truthful, and yet is easily thwarted through the use of simple countermeasures.
It is a national disgrace that our government pretends to assess the honesty and integrity of applicants and employees based on this fraudulent procedure. By way of example, see fed-up's recent post:
https://antipolygraph.org/forum/index.php?topic=4065.msg30856#msg30856
Posted by bsce711
- Sep 10, 2008, 12:58 PMQuit being a baby. EVERYONE goes through a poly at Ft Meade...and the military is not for everyone, but suck it up...you signed the paper and all of the citizens we protect are paying for you to work everyday and get a college education. The poly they give at NSA is NOT a lifestyle. They just wanna make sure you don't want to give info to anyone or try to sabotage any part of NSA mission. RELAX, and get your crap together.
SSgt, USAF
Ft Meade MD
SSgt, USAF
Ft Meade MD
Posted by Lethe
- Jul 15, 2008, 09:08 PMThe purpose of the polygraph, as any intelligent polygrapher with experience knows, is not primarily about detecting deception: it is to deter unwanted behavior and to prompt confessions. If it does those two things, why worry about whether or not it can detect deception with anything approaching reasonable accuracy?
Antis need to realize this. Often, we try to discuss accuracy rates with Polis and become bewildered at how unconcerned they are with both anecdotal examples of inaccurate results and statistical evidence of inaccuracy. But they don't really care about that. It'd be like trying to convince Picasso that Guernica isn't a very realistic looking painting--he doesn't care, it's a great piece of art. Likewise, most Polies don't care much about accuracy rates so long as they can deter bad behavior and elicit confessions.
Obviously, the Polygraph failed in your case to deter bad behavior (it's not very well employed to do so in society at large, nor can it be, since that would prompt to much debate on and investigation of the polygraph. It can only successfully deter behavior within an organization, a police department, government agency, or military branch). Whether or not it succeeds in eliciting a confession from you it up to you.
Antis need to realize this. Often, we try to discuss accuracy rates with Polis and become bewildered at how unconcerned they are with both anecdotal examples of inaccurate results and statistical evidence of inaccuracy. But they don't really care about that. It'd be like trying to convince Picasso that Guernica isn't a very realistic looking painting--he doesn't care, it's a great piece of art. Likewise, most Polies don't care much about accuracy rates so long as they can deter bad behavior and elicit confessions.
Obviously, the Polygraph failed in your case to deter bad behavior (it's not very well employed to do so in society at large, nor can it be, since that would prompt to much debate on and investigation of the polygraph. It can only successfully deter behavior within an organization, a police department, government agency, or military branch). Whether or not it succeeds in eliciting a confession from you it up to you.
Posted by T.M. Cullen
- Jul 13, 2008, 09:52 PMPigface,
Looks like they've got you already, since you are sounding like a scared rabbit! This is just what they want.
Do yourself a favor, read the following:
http://antipolygraph.org/lie-behind-the-lie-detector.pdf
I guarantee you will (hopefully) be less paranoid after reading the above by actually learning about the game they play on people.
BTW, I spent 20 years as a military linguist (Chinese) and took the polygraph at NSA in 1995 and 2000. So I have been through the process.
Bottom line, know right now that their machine can NOT detect if you are lying. As one noted psychologist has stated: ""There is no direct and unequivocal connection between lying and these physiological states of arousal...(referring to polygraph)". But they will try to convince you otherwise. Who you gonna believe, a 14 week wonder, or an eminent professor? A group of the country's top scientific researchers, upon the request of congress, concluded that the polygraph screening of employees should be stopped because it is so unreliable.
Also, know the difference between a "relevant" question and a "control" question. Make no admissions whatsoever regarding a relevant question, no matter how insignificant you think it is. No matter how hard they push, scream, yell, or jump up and down on their desk. Is just a "bluff" game.
TC
Looks like they've got you already, since you are sounding like a scared rabbit! This is just what they want.
Do yourself a favor, read the following:
http://antipolygraph.org/lie-behind-the-lie-detector.pdf
I guarantee you will (hopefully) be less paranoid after reading the above by actually learning about the game they play on people.
BTW, I spent 20 years as a military linguist (Chinese) and took the polygraph at NSA in 1995 and 2000. So I have been through the process.
Bottom line, know right now that their machine can NOT detect if you are lying. As one noted psychologist has stated: ""There is no direct and unequivocal connection between lying and these physiological states of arousal...(referring to polygraph)". But they will try to convince you otherwise. Who you gonna believe, a 14 week wonder, or an eminent professor? A group of the country's top scientific researchers, upon the request of congress, concluded that the polygraph screening of employees should be stopped because it is so unreliable.
Also, know the difference between a "relevant" question and a "control" question. Make no admissions whatsoever regarding a relevant question, no matter how insignificant you think it is. No matter how hard they push, scream, yell, or jump up and down on their desk. Is just a "bluff" game.
TC
Posted by pigface
- Jul 13, 2008, 07:18 PMI'm currently in the military for an intelligence job (don't want to be any more specific) but I am still in tech school. I have received the temporary TS-SCI clearance required to enter the school houses on base. My current orders say I am to be stationed at Ft. Mead Maryland, NSA HQ as my first duty station. And apparently to work at any NSA field site a polygraph test is required.
I am rather worried about the poly. I'm a good guy and I have nothing on my written record, but I do have a more shady past than the military knows about. Drugs in particular, more than the average person I imagine, more than I'd like to admit. I know the drugs question on the test will be a problem.
My question is this: What happens if I fail? Horrible things? Jail time?
In all honesty I'm not sure if I even want to be in the military now that I have had a taste of it. I hate myself for saying that, and hate myself even more for not being willing to fulfill my contract, but it's how I feel. I could "slip up" and fail a few tests and have the option to be re-classed or possibly get out completely(so I'm told). I really doubt I will fail any of the tests as I am doing quite well in the class, so I would need to purposefully do so.
Any information would be much appreciated. I don't currently have a date set for my poly, but I am still kind of freaking out about it.
I am rather worried about the poly. I'm a good guy and I have nothing on my written record, but I do have a more shady past than the military knows about. Drugs in particular, more than the average person I imagine, more than I'd like to admit. I know the drugs question on the test will be a problem.
My question is this: What happens if I fail? Horrible things? Jail time?
In all honesty I'm not sure if I even want to be in the military now that I have had a taste of it. I hate myself for saying that, and hate myself even more for not being willing to fulfill my contract, but it's how I feel. I could "slip up" and fail a few tests and have the option to be re-classed or possibly get out completely(so I'm told). I really doubt I will fail any of the tests as I am doing quite well in the class, so I would need to purposefully do so.
Any information would be much appreciated. I don't currently have a date set for my poly, but I am still kind of freaking out about it.