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A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Oct 02, 2008, 06:09 AMPinay,
I am saddened, but not surprised, by your unfortunate experience with the polygraph. Television shows such as Dr. Phil, Maury Povich, and Fox's Moment of Truth have disserved the viewing public by popularizing the notion that lie detector testing can provide resolution to questions over marital fidelity.
In fact, polygraph testing has no scientific basis and is inherently biased against the truthful. False positive results (when a truthful person is wrongly called deceptive) are quite common, and many relationships have been destroyed in part due to misplaced reliance on this pseudoscientific procedure. See, for example, the personal statement of Gary Smith (PDF) and the post, Wife left me after polygraph told I cheated.
For a thorough debunking of polygraphy that you can share with your husband, see The Lie Behind the Lie Detector:
https://antipolygraph.org/lie-behind-the-lie-detector.pdf
It's worth pointing out that had you in fact been an unfaithful spouse intent on fooling the lie detector, you could have readily learned how to do so. (It's explained in Chapter 4 of the book.)
Sadly, I must agree with T.M. Cullen's suggestion that you consult a good divorce attorney. If you don't know one in your area, Martindale's Lawyer Locator service, which allows one to search by location and area of expertise, may be helpful:
http://www.martindale.com
I am saddened, but not surprised, by your unfortunate experience with the polygraph. Television shows such as Dr. Phil, Maury Povich, and Fox's Moment of Truth have disserved the viewing public by popularizing the notion that lie detector testing can provide resolution to questions over marital fidelity.
In fact, polygraph testing has no scientific basis and is inherently biased against the truthful. False positive results (when a truthful person is wrongly called deceptive) are quite common, and many relationships have been destroyed in part due to misplaced reliance on this pseudoscientific procedure. See, for example, the personal statement of Gary Smith (PDF) and the post, Wife left me after polygraph told I cheated.
For a thorough debunking of polygraphy that you can share with your husband, see The Lie Behind the Lie Detector:
https://antipolygraph.org/lie-behind-the-lie-detector.pdf
It's worth pointing out that had you in fact been an unfaithful spouse intent on fooling the lie detector, you could have readily learned how to do so. (It's explained in Chapter 4 of the book.)
Sadly, I must agree with T.M. Cullen's suggestion that you consult a good divorce attorney. If you don't know one in your area, Martindale's Lawyer Locator service, which allows one to search by location and area of expertise, may be helpful:
http://www.martindale.com
Posted by T.M. Cullen
- Oct 02, 2008, 12:37 AMPinay,
Sounds like you need a good divorce attorney. If your husband is willing to let his marriage ride on the results of a polygraph test, he must not be very educated, or well informed.
The polygraph is NOT accurate or reliable. That is the consensus of the scientific community. There is ample information on this website to substantiate the above statement.
Good luck!
Sounds like you need a good divorce attorney. If your husband is willing to let his marriage ride on the results of a polygraph test, he must not be very educated, or well informed.
The polygraph is NOT accurate or reliable. That is the consensus of the scientific community. There is ample information on this website to substantiate the above statement.
Good luck!
Posted by pinay
- Oct 01, 2008, 10:57 PMi had this terrible experience about taking a lie detector test that really end -up my marriage with my husband. My husband is very paranoid and have this terrible jealousy issues. I worked two job and only had three to four of sleep eveyday. I did try everything to prove to my husband that what his thinking about me that i am a liar and a cheater is all wrong. I actually challenge him to do this lie detector test and I have all my confidence that i am not gonna fail..guess what? i failed the first time and the examiner told us that is very usual to the first time to fail due of emotional feeling..not only that when he evaluate the grade he did it manually and he said that his computer is not cooperating. We both unhappy aboout it, so the examiner encourage us to retest it again with no any charge..Honestly, i feel like i don't wanna go back there and do it again because i am worried that i might failed again..and knowing that my husband will make more believe about the computer result than me...well here we are and i am very nervous..we told to the examiner that me and my husband had a little talk and agreed for something before i get the re-test, and he made some correction regarding the questions that my husband wants to here again..the second time, i failed again and i know deep in my heart that i am being faithful to my husband from the beginning of our relationship until we got married. Now my husband is totally convince that i am a cheater because he relied on the polygraph result .I felt so much devastated..insult and humiliated plus the examiner insist that i am hiding something and i am the only one who knew about what the truth is..the last word i said to my husband..i wish there is a miracle happen to prove it to him that i am telling him the truth.. but i think our marriage is over and right now i felt so depress and cheated but i don't know what else to do. That night after we went to the test we have a huge argument where i end up calling a police are because my husband threatend me.. my husband told me to leave his house and don't come back anymore...this is a veryhurtful experience that i ever have in my life.. i wish all this examiner could be honest and truthful about the job that they've been doing, it's not the cost of what they earned that their betting, it's the cost of anyone's life and relationship that they've been destroying.
Posted by leah
- Sep 26, 2008, 12:06 PMThe FBI one...thank you for that information. I wrote a letter of protest, that hopefully will be included in that file. I also meant that I did the pot smoking 22 years ago, and just had the fbi polygraph in 2007. I have not used any illicit or illegal drug since then and that was the only one that I have ever done...so you know...
Thanks for your response. Maybe they will put that protest in the system.
I was so devasted when it happened...just because it is literally funny for that to be the reason for me, when he came back and said you had a questionable response on drugs, I started laughing thinking that's impossible, the ONLY thing that could have happened was that I was not comfortable with the amount of times I did it, I did NOT know the exact number, even tho' he told me to get comfortable with a number that I pulled out of my head (in otherwords lie) my mind would not get comfortable because in fact I did not know the number of times I had done it. It would like asking me how many times I blinked at 2:00 p.m. September 26, 1984??? I don't know exactly, but I can tell you I did it. I told my friends and family and they all thought I was joking and could not believe it....First of all because they all know that I don't lie, and most of all dont' do drugs, but unfortunately I was not....but I am a firm believer in what is meant to be will be meant to be....soooo
This website was literally a godsend because until I read this I felt ashamed and embarassed that that would have happened...at least its not just me.
Thanks for your response. Maybe they will put that protest in the system.
I was so devasted when it happened...just because it is literally funny for that to be the reason for me, when he came back and said you had a questionable response on drugs, I started laughing thinking that's impossible, the ONLY thing that could have happened was that I was not comfortable with the amount of times I did it, I did NOT know the exact number, even tho' he told me to get comfortable with a number that I pulled out of my head (in otherwords lie) my mind would not get comfortable because in fact I did not know the number of times I had done it. It would like asking me how many times I blinked at 2:00 p.m. September 26, 1984??? I don't know exactly, but I can tell you I did it. I told my friends and family and they all thought I was joking and could not believe it....First of all because they all know that I don't lie, and most of all dont' do drugs, but unfortunately I was not....but I am a firm believer in what is meant to be will be meant to be....soooo
This website was literally a godsend because until I read this I felt ashamed and embarassed that that would have happened...at least its not just me.
Quote from: PhilGainey on Sep 24, 2008, 12:53 AMLeah,
I'm not sure to which post in this thread you are replying, but assuming that your polygraph was with the FBI, you now have a permanent file on record. If you apply for any federal job that requires a National Agency Check, the fact that you have an FBI file will show up, and the file will no doubt be requested and reviewed. At that point your admitted past drug use and/or polygraph results may become an impediment.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Sep 24, 2008, 12:53 AMLeah,
I'm not sure to which post in this thread you are replying, but assuming that your polygraph was with the FBI, you now have a permanent file on record. If you apply for any federal job that requires a National Agency Check, the fact that you have an FBI file will show up, and the file will no doubt be requested and reviewed. At that point your admitted past drug use and/or polygraph results may become an impediment.
I'm not sure to which post in this thread you are replying, but assuming that your polygraph was with the FBI, you now have a permanent file on record. If you apply for any federal job that requires a National Agency Check, the fact that you have an FBI file will show up, and the file will no doubt be requested and reviewed. At that point your admitted past drug use and/or polygraph results may become an impediment.
Posted by Leah
- Sep 23, 2008, 03:48 PMOMG - the same exact thing happened to me. About Drugs. Now the only thing that happened was that I have smoked pot. NOW that was 22 years ago. Mind you. But they asked me how many times I did it? OTHER than that I would have been the perfect candidate for the position they were looking for. I felt like such a fool. I had told everyone that I had this job. I was so excited. As a single mom, it was nice to FINALLY get my foot in the door for the federal government to help me make more money and be able to support my family.
I have the concern about being blackballed for any further federal jobs? DOES that happen.
I have the concern about being blackballed for any further federal jobs? DOES that happen.
Posted by polytechnic
- Jul 15, 2008, 10:20 AMQuote from: 0E0503440 on Jul 10, 2008, 01:32 PMTC asked if I would permit my client to get things off his chest at a poly -- in a single word -- NO.
98% of the time, I advise clients to refuse polys. The other 2%, I will advise my client to take an "exculpatory poly" where the government agrees to drop the charges if my client passes. In that case, I advise my client of how polys work, the purpose of the control questions, and to not lie to the control question, regardless of how embarrasing or silly they may seem. Additionally, I insist on my presence at the poly. Finally, I prohibit any post poly interview. Only in that case will a poly possibly benefit my client.
Otherwise they are tools for confessions, nothing more.
Jag
Jag,
Your 2% clients would probably do a lot better if they actually lied to the Control Questions. The CQ is where the examinee has a chance to produce a strong reaction (tracing) to match or better that of the Relevant Questions. By owning up to the worst things you did earlier in life, you not only give the examiner ammo to shoot you with and paint you as a perp, but your admissions lead to weakened CQ reactions ( low scoring tracings) - so best advice is : Dont own up to any earlier in life misconduct - unless of course you're an ex-con with a history of convictions - then admit those only and nothing else.
Posted by T.M. Cullen
- Jul 10, 2008, 02:13 PMQuoteOtherwise they are tools for confessions, nothing more.
And in many cases, FALSE confessions!
TC
Posted by JAG
- Jul 10, 2008, 01:32 PMTC asked if I would permit my client to get things off his chest at a poly -- in a single word -- NO.
98% of the time, I advise clients to refuse polys. The other 2%, I will advise my client to take an "exculpatory poly" where the government agrees to drop the charges if my client passes. In that case, I advise my client of how polys work, the purpose of the control questions, and to not lie to the control question, regardless of how embarrasing or silly they may seem. Additionally, I insist on my presence at the poly. Finally, I prohibit any post poly interview. Only in that case will a poly possibly benefit my client.
Otherwise they are tools for confessions, nothing more.
Jag
98% of the time, I advise clients to refuse polys. The other 2%, I will advise my client to take an "exculpatory poly" where the government agrees to drop the charges if my client passes. In that case, I advise my client of how polys work, the purpose of the control questions, and to not lie to the control question, regardless of how embarrasing or silly they may seem. Additionally, I insist on my presence at the poly. Finally, I prohibit any post poly interview. Only in that case will a poly possibly benefit my client.
Otherwise they are tools for confessions, nothing more.
Jag
Posted by JAG
- Jul 10, 2008, 01:27 PMTC asked if I would permit my client to get things off his chest at a poly -- in a single word -- NO.
Posted by T.M. Cullen
- Jul 07, 2008, 10:55 PMQuoteIf there is enough of us to complain to our Senators and Congress, they may listen and may change the law to outlaw polygraph again
Letters to congress? LOL Most congress persons use such letters to wipe their asses with.
Politicians don't give a "hoot in hyanissport" about the polygraph!
Remember the NAS report was done at the REQUEST of congress, which they ended up ignoring.
They don't have to take it, why should they care?
What is needed is to EMBARRASS them about it, if and when some crisis emerges which exposes the ill effects the process is having on national security.
In this respect, winning over the media would be helpful.
TC
Posted by blackballed
- Jul 07, 2008, 05:01 PMDear NoLongerBelieve,
I understand your situation and I also share the same frustrating feelings as you do.
I am an applicant too for the FBI and Secret Service. I took the FBI polygraph twice and both times, they failed me, "the results not within parameters" both times the same message, but they never could accuse me of any wrongdoings in the letter of rejection.
After each polygraph interrogation, I felt my rights was violated and they still will not offer me a job, even a contract.
I am truly frustrated with the FBI. This is how you fight for your rights.
I've read the antipolygraph.org manual that explains what to do after you were told you failed.
Here is the link to the antipolygraph manual, look for the "Grievance Procedure".
https://antipolygraph.org/lie-behind-the-lie-detector.pdf
And you may also try writing to the following senators:
https://antipolygraph.org/get.shtml
I will be doing the same for myself.
We all must stick together and we must all complain. If there is enough of us to complain to our Senators and Congress, they may listen and may change the law to outlaw polygraph again
I understand your situation and I also share the same frustrating feelings as you do.
I am an applicant too for the FBI and Secret Service. I took the FBI polygraph twice and both times, they failed me, "the results not within parameters" both times the same message, but they never could accuse me of any wrongdoings in the letter of rejection.
After each polygraph interrogation, I felt my rights was violated and they still will not offer me a job, even a contract.
I am truly frustrated with the FBI. This is how you fight for your rights.
I've read the antipolygraph.org manual that explains what to do after you were told you failed.
Here is the link to the antipolygraph manual, look for the "Grievance Procedure".
https://antipolygraph.org/lie-behind-the-lie-detector.pdf
And you may also try writing to the following senators:
https://antipolygraph.org/get.shtml
I will be doing the same for myself.
We all must stick together and we must all complain. If there is enough of us to complain to our Senators and Congress, they may listen and may change the law to outlaw polygraph again
Posted by Fair Chance
- Jul 05, 2008, 10:53 PMDear Readers,
I have to reflect upon my polygraph experiences, life experiences, and over 24 years of Federal Employment (eight military, fifteen civil service).
T.M. Cullen sums it it up in a nutshell. The polygraph person has no idea what you are thinking. He has no idea who you are. He has no idea what you have done. He has no idea what you have gone through in life. The only thing he has to work with is what you tell him and what you have written on paper.
It is an interrogation technique, plain and simple. You must believe in it in order for the technique to work. Show no respect for the polygraph and they automatically dismiss you because they know that they can elicit no responses from you that get them a "gold star" and "another proven failure" notched on their evaluation. They kind of remind me of a used car salesman. They will do anything to get a car off the lot, say anything, stretch the truth into a lie as necessary to meet their "quota".
The polygraph examiner is not rewarded for passing a person as much as they are rewarded for finding a reason to fail a person. This in itself is a severe conflict of interest. This is a fact. Polygraph examiners in pre-screening exams are evaluated on the percentage that they can get "written collaboration" of an examinee's guilt.
As I have been told so many times, "a security clearance is a privilage, not a right". Since when has asking to be given a "Fair Chance" a privilage in this nation? An applicant does not look for special favors. All applicants deserve a fair and equal chance.
Regards.
I have to reflect upon my polygraph experiences, life experiences, and over 24 years of Federal Employment (eight military, fifteen civil service).
T.M. Cullen sums it it up in a nutshell. The polygraph person has no idea what you are thinking. He has no idea who you are. He has no idea what you have done. He has no idea what you have gone through in life. The only thing he has to work with is what you tell him and what you have written on paper.
It is an interrogation technique, plain and simple. You must believe in it in order for the technique to work. Show no respect for the polygraph and they automatically dismiss you because they know that they can elicit no responses from you that get them a "gold star" and "another proven failure" notched on their evaluation. They kind of remind me of a used car salesman. They will do anything to get a car off the lot, say anything, stretch the truth into a lie as necessary to meet their "quota".
The polygraph examiner is not rewarded for passing a person as much as they are rewarded for finding a reason to fail a person. This in itself is a severe conflict of interest. This is a fact. Polygraph examiners in pre-screening exams are evaluated on the percentage that they can get "written collaboration" of an examinee's guilt.
As I have been told so many times, "a security clearance is a privilage, not a right". Since when has asking to be given a "Fair Chance" a privilage in this nation? An applicant does not look for special favors. All applicants deserve a fair and equal chance.
Regards.
Posted by T.M. Cullen
- Jul 04, 2008, 05:53 PMQuoteI have been both a military prosecutor and defense counsel, and the only reason polygraphs are used is to get the subject to give a "post-polygraph" interview where they usually admit to the crime.
Like I've said before, the polygraph is NOT A TEST. It is an interrogation DISGUISED AS A TEST!
The purpose of a preemployment polygraph is to see what the polygrapher can "GET THE PERSON TO SAY". This is why the most common polygrapher refrain on this board (before we scared them all off with the facts) is that people have trouble on the test because they "don't get it all off their chest!".
Do you advise defense clients to "get it all off their chests" when they are being questioned? I doubt it.
Of course, polygraphers here have come up with some pretty creative reasons why lawyers should NOT BE ALLOWED TO BE PRESENT DURING A POLYGRAPH!
TC
Posted by Jag
- Jul 04, 2008, 10:04 AMFound this cite actually researching tourettes syndrome's affect on the accuracy of a polygraph -- I know, seems like a ridiculous issue.
At any rate, I wanted to remind you there is a reason why the military courts will not allow polygraphs in evidence. I have been both a military prosecutor and defense counsel, and the only reason polygraphs are used is to get the subject to give a "post-polygraph" interview where they usually admit to the crime. As defense counsel, I was frustrated that I could not introduce evidence of the failed polygraph as evidence of a false confession -- the answer to the question as to why an innocent man would confess to a crime he did not commit -- because nobody would believe him anyway and the Speical Agent told him that everyone would go easier on him if he confessed.
Oh well, that is a different issue than the employment polys. I have had individuals pass the polygraph, and then admit to the crime later (after finding DNA at the scene), and had folks fail the poly who had ROCK SOLID alibis.
For me, its all about the interview.
Jag
At any rate, I wanted to remind you there is a reason why the military courts will not allow polygraphs in evidence. I have been both a military prosecutor and defense counsel, and the only reason polygraphs are used is to get the subject to give a "post-polygraph" interview where they usually admit to the crime. As defense counsel, I was frustrated that I could not introduce evidence of the failed polygraph as evidence of a false confession -- the answer to the question as to why an innocent man would confess to a crime he did not commit -- because nobody would believe him anyway and the Speical Agent told him that everyone would go easier on him if he confessed.
Oh well, that is a different issue than the employment polys. I have had individuals pass the polygraph, and then admit to the crime later (after finding DNA at the scene), and had folks fail the poly who had ROCK SOLID alibis.
For me, its all about the interview.
Jag