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Posted by TheKaisho
- Jan 10, 2008, 02:18 PMHey, Everyone,
After a brief interlude, I am back in action.
Have read the latest post on this thread and I have to say KUDOS to WJ! Furthermore, I do not care if he is a line cook at Denny's or a Secret Service Agent.
I look it at it this way, the government has its tools and now with contermeasures (which SanchoPanza and others of his ilk think do not work) we, the people of this great nation, have OUR tools.
We are now engaged in a cat-and-mouse game with the government that is supposed to be of us, by us and FOR us; but no longer is any of those things.
As it seems that the game is already rigged (which having experienced it first hand, I know it is) is it any surprise that people would figure out a way to beat the machine? If the polygraph gurus find a better science, people will try to find a way around that.
Also, I do not believe that anyone lying on a polygraph is more likely to lie when the chips are down than anyone else. Do I believe that they can? Sure. Anyone can lie....or at least, obfuscate the Truth somewhat.
But to believe that a person who would lie about their toiletting habits or what they do in the bedroom or the drugs they may or may not have experimented with as a young person would be any more likely to divulge a state secret is ludicrous and INANE.
Many times people have reminded me that past errors in their judgement are not necessarily good predictors of their future behavior. There are SCORES of people out here that have dings in their past and do not wish to ever re-visit those times. Life is a school of hard-knocks...character is built from adversity.
All a polygraph exam does in my book is open up old wounds, long healed and FORCE people to expose their weaknesses to a stranger who they feel will be making a value judgement upon them. whether they actually are or not, it is that perception.
How many times in our history has it happened that mere perception of reality has become reality, right or wrong.
Give me 12 people who have experienced some kind of trial or crisis of faith versus 12 people who have never lost anything because they have never risked anything, made a mistake or have lived their lives in some kind of protective bubble and I will show you 12 people that can be truly committed to a cause and dedicated to service because they know better than the latter group what it is like to LOSE something.
This is a maxim; second chances, deserved or not (but especially when they are not deserved) can keep people loyal beyond measure.
To say that someone would sell our nation down the river solely because they lied on a polygraph is a leap in logic I cannot make.
By the way....hmmmm. Because it stood up and absolutely BEGGED for some sort of repartee, I will say this about one of the posts.
Someone on here (I will let you all guess who, tongue-in-cheek) asked the question (way more than it had to have been asked) about why would a polygrapher care one way or another if a victim, errr, person, (yeah, person...that's the ticket, skillet!) would care if that person was being Deceptive or Truthful. In the latest thread, that very same person stated "It looks like the only person in this litle scenario that was dishonest was the first polygrapher who said he was lying."
Hmmmm...a polygrapher being dishonest? OMG! Now, if a polygrapher would not care one way or another about Truth or Deceit then why would she be dishonest? I mean, in the world of ALL ABSOLUTES, why would she lie? Curious.
Seems like the air is escaping from the polygraph hot air balloon. You know the one that floats very high? So high over human prejudices, errors and ethical breaches that the pilot does not see the polygraph as what it is, a voodoo science draped in a cloak of seeming legitamacy.
Apparently, I am not the only one anymore that can hear the air escaping.
Crash landing anyone?
After a brief interlude, I am back in action.
Have read the latest post on this thread and I have to say KUDOS to WJ! Furthermore, I do not care if he is a line cook at Denny's or a Secret Service Agent.
I look it at it this way, the government has its tools and now with contermeasures (which SanchoPanza and others of his ilk think do not work) we, the people of this great nation, have OUR tools.
We are now engaged in a cat-and-mouse game with the government that is supposed to be of us, by us and FOR us; but no longer is any of those things.
As it seems that the game is already rigged (which having experienced it first hand, I know it is) is it any surprise that people would figure out a way to beat the machine? If the polygraph gurus find a better science, people will try to find a way around that.
Also, I do not believe that anyone lying on a polygraph is more likely to lie when the chips are down than anyone else. Do I believe that they can? Sure. Anyone can lie....or at least, obfuscate the Truth somewhat.
But to believe that a person who would lie about their toiletting habits or what they do in the bedroom or the drugs they may or may not have experimented with as a young person would be any more likely to divulge a state secret is ludicrous and INANE.
Many times people have reminded me that past errors in their judgement are not necessarily good predictors of their future behavior. There are SCORES of people out here that have dings in their past and do not wish to ever re-visit those times. Life is a school of hard-knocks...character is built from adversity.
All a polygraph exam does in my book is open up old wounds, long healed and FORCE people to expose their weaknesses to a stranger who they feel will be making a value judgement upon them. whether they actually are or not, it is that perception.
How many times in our history has it happened that mere perception of reality has become reality, right or wrong.
Give me 12 people who have experienced some kind of trial or crisis of faith versus 12 people who have never lost anything because they have never risked anything, made a mistake or have lived their lives in some kind of protective bubble and I will show you 12 people that can be truly committed to a cause and dedicated to service because they know better than the latter group what it is like to LOSE something.
This is a maxim; second chances, deserved or not (but especially when they are not deserved) can keep people loyal beyond measure.
To say that someone would sell our nation down the river solely because they lied on a polygraph is a leap in logic I cannot make.
By the way....hmmmm. Because it stood up and absolutely BEGGED for some sort of repartee, I will say this about one of the posts.
Someone on here (I will let you all guess who, tongue-in-cheek) asked the question (way more than it had to have been asked) about why would a polygrapher care one way or another if a victim, errr, person, (yeah, person...that's the ticket, skillet!) would care if that person was being Deceptive or Truthful. In the latest thread, that very same person stated "It looks like the only person in this litle scenario that was dishonest was the first polygrapher who said he was lying."
Hmmmm...a polygrapher being dishonest? OMG! Now, if a polygrapher would not care one way or another about Truth or Deceit then why would she be dishonest? I mean, in the world of ALL ABSOLUTES, why would she lie? Curious.
Seems like the air is escaping from the polygraph hot air balloon. You know the one that floats very high? So high over human prejudices, errors and ethical breaches that the pilot does not see the polygraph as what it is, a voodoo science draped in a cloak of seeming legitamacy.
Apparently, I am not the only one anymore that can hear the air escaping.
Crash landing anyone?
Posted by Administrator
- Jan 06, 2008, 10:38 PMFurther posts to this message thread should substantively address the original topic. In particular, personal attacks are inappropriate and are not within keeping with AntiPolygraph.org's posting policy.
Posted by EJohnson
- Jan 06, 2008, 10:25 PMedited sarcastic post. Apologies administrator, nopoly becoming increasingly combative.
Posted by nopolycop
- Jan 06, 2008, 09:45 PMQuote from: WJ on Jan 06, 2008, 08:35 PMAll I'm going to say to you nopoly is that the reason I don't respond to your posts has nothing at all to do with them being to hot to handle. The reason stems from something a wise old friend of mine once told me.
"Never argue with an idiot, they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. "
Sancho Panza
Yes, I have heard that line. I rather like the line, "Never mud wrestle with a pig. You both end up filthy, and the pig enjoys it."
Regardless, I didn't think you answering a few penetrating questions was characterized as an argument. But, that's good for me, because it allows me the opportunity to simply comment on your innane answers to the child molesters and other sex offenders whom you do choose to cyber-associate with, without the need to waste my time with you. And frankly, I have no need to win any argument against you or any polygraphools, but instead after learn what I have learned here over the last few months, I simply post for the edification of those who are wondering why they didn't "pass" their polygraph test, despite telling the truth.
Posted by SanchoPanza
- Jan 06, 2008, 08:35 PMAll I'm going to say to you nopoly is that the reason I don't respond to your posts has nothing at all to do with them being to hot to handle. The reason stems from something a wise old friend of mine once told me.
"Never argue with an idiot, they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. "
Sancho Panza
P.S. Nopoly If ignorance is bliss, you must be multi-orgasmic
sp
"Never argue with an idiot, they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. "
Sancho Panza
P.S. Nopoly If ignorance is bliss, you must be multi-orgasmic
sp
Posted by nopolycop
- Jan 06, 2008, 03:03 PMQuote from: WJ on Jan 05, 2008, 06:56 PMSancho:
Since when is telling the truth and passing a polygraph dishonest event? Afterall, countermeasures don't work anyway, so what is the harm? The man told the truth on the first one and failed, (was told he was lying). The man told the truth on the second one and passed. It looks like the only person in this litle scenario that was dishonest was the first polygrapher who said he was lying.
What's wrong Sancho, no witty repartee? You said you are a carreer LE guy. You probably survived by avoiding the hot calls, (like you avoid my posts) and getting into internal affairs as soon as you could brown nose enough brass.
Posted by WJ
- Jan 06, 2008, 10:14 AMNo but if you used a polygraph on me and asked me that question I'd make you believe I was thanks to your voodoo. 8-)
Posted by EJohnson
- Jan 06, 2008, 06:59 AMQuoteOh man....I can't believe how much of a scam the polygraph is. Once you lose the fear it is worthless. I'll be honest that I was scared and nervous when I walked into that little room but quickly over came that fear when I did the "Stim" test. I used my CMs and the lady was like, "It is very clear that you are not a good liar". LOL....she even tried one of those question out of the blue designed to shock like, "what is 100 X 100 minus 50?". I used the CMs on that one and she feel for it.
Hook Line and Sinker!!!!!
Gravy-dipped, lard-fried, breaded and battered HORSE SHIT.
Be honest WJ. You are a line cook at Denny's.
Posted by WJ
- Jan 05, 2008, 06:56 PMOh man....I can't believe how much of a scam the polygraph is. Once you lose the fear it is worthless. I'll be honest that I was scared and nervous when I walked into that little room but quickly over came that fear when I did the "Stim" test. I used my CMs and the lady was like, "It is very clear that you are not a good liar". LOL....she even tried one of those question out of the blue designed to shock like, "what is 100 X 100 minus 50?". I used the CMs on that one and she feel for it.
Hook Line and Sinker!!!!!
Hook Line and Sinker!!!!!
Posted by nopolycop
- Jan 05, 2008, 06:56 PMSancho:
Since when is telling the truth and passing a polygraph dishonest event? Afterall, countermeasures don't work anyway, so what is the harm? The man told the truth on the first one and failed, (was told he was lying). The man told the truth on the second one and passed. It looks like the only person in this litle scenario that was dishonest was the first polygrapher who said he was lying.
Since when is telling the truth and passing a polygraph dishonest event? Afterall, countermeasures don't work anyway, so what is the harm? The man told the truth on the first one and failed, (was told he was lying). The man told the truth on the second one and passed. It looks like the only person in this litle scenario that was dishonest was the first polygrapher who said he was lying.
Posted by WJ
- Jan 05, 2008, 06:37 PMQuote from: WJ on Jan 05, 2008, 06:26 PMI presume that if you are not absolutely lying about passing your polygraph that the citizens of your country can count on you to continue to lie and cheat for the remainder of your career.
I guess since your polygraph fell between this oath,
"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."
and this Oath
(I SWEAR) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter, So Help Me God.
that you think you should get by on a technicality. Unless of course, you still hold a reserve commission. But then maybe you had your fingers crossed behind your back for the first one so it doesn't count.
If you have done what you say you have done I hope they weed your traitorous behind out in training before somebody makes the mistake of trusting you with something important.
Of course this is just one man's opinion.
Sancho Panza
Well actually I failed my first one, told I was lying when I was not. I took it into my own hands to ensure that I passed since the polygraph is nothing but voodoo. This machine is horrible and can no more tell if someone is lying than I can read the future by feeling the bumps on your head. The only thing I lied about is when they asked me if I'd ever taken a poly before. So let me get this correct. The machine and subjective results tell me I'm being deceptive when I'm not but say I'm not being deceptive, after using CMs, when I am.
Posted by SanchoPanza
- Jan 05, 2008, 06:26 PMI presume that if you are not absolutely lying about passing your polygraph that the citizens of your country can count on you to continue to lie and cheat for the remainder of your career.
I guess since your polygraph fell between this oath,
"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."
and this Oath
(I SWEAR) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter, So Help Me God.
that you think you should get by on a technicality. Unless of course, you still hold a reserve commission. But then maybe you had your fingers crossed behind your back for the first one so it doesn't count.
If you have done what you say you have done I hope they weed your traitorous behind out in training before somebody makes the mistake of trusting you with something important.
Of course this is just one man's opinion.
Sancho Panza
I guess since your polygraph fell between this oath,
"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."
and this Oath
(I SWEAR) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter, So Help Me God.
that you think you should get by on a technicality. Unless of course, you still hold a reserve commission. But then maybe you had your fingers crossed behind your back for the first one so it doesn't count.
If you have done what you say you have done I hope they weed your traitorous behind out in training before somebody makes the mistake of trusting you with something important.
Of course this is just one man's opinion.
Sancho Panza
Posted by WJ
- Jan 05, 2008, 05:22 PMI had a pre-employment polygraph, my 2nd one (failed 1st passed 2nd after use of CMs) not too long ago and passed using counter measures. To be honest I was pretty nervous but I did has I was instructed and they fell for it. That polygraph was a joke and the polygrapher was a jerk. I did not feel bad at all sticking it to them.
First off I purchased two manuals off the internet. One was from Doug Williams and the other was from passapolygraph.com. Both used the same techniques but one stressed that you should only show a reaction on one control question per group of questions. The only time the polygrapher might or might not have suspected counter-measures was once when he told me to stop thinking about my breathing. I used the "pucker", breathing control and mental counter-measures at first, then just the pucker and mental CMs and finally just the mental CMs.
At the end of the test during the interrogation phase they tried pushing about one question, one in which might be very general. The "Have you omitted or falsified any portion of your application forms?" question was pushed and pushed but I stayed the course. She tried everything like trying to be my friend, etc, etc. I thought I failed to be honest but weeks later I was told that I passed and was moving on to the next phase. I talked to a friend of mine that was in one of the other federal agencies and he told me that they will sometimes push that "falsified/ Omitted" question if they see a truthful chart but believe the person might have something to hide. That test is a joke and I can't believe governments still use it.
First off I purchased two manuals off the internet. One was from Doug Williams and the other was from passapolygraph.com. Both used the same techniques but one stressed that you should only show a reaction on one control question per group of questions. The only time the polygrapher might or might not have suspected counter-measures was once when he told me to stop thinking about my breathing. I used the "pucker", breathing control and mental counter-measures at first, then just the pucker and mental CMs and finally just the mental CMs.
At the end of the test during the interrogation phase they tried pushing about one question, one in which might be very general. The "Have you omitted or falsified any portion of your application forms?" question was pushed and pushed but I stayed the course. She tried everything like trying to be my friend, etc, etc. I thought I failed to be honest but weeks later I was told that I passed and was moving on to the next phase. I talked to a friend of mine that was in one of the other federal agencies and he told me that they will sometimes push that "falsified/ Omitted" question if they see a truthful chart but believe the person might have something to hide.
That test is a joke and I can't believe governments still use it.