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Topic summary

Posted by nopolycop
 - Dec 17, 2007, 11:55 AM
Have a nice holiday, non...
Posted by nonombre
 - Dec 16, 2007, 09:06 PM
Quote from: armysgt1965 on Dec 16, 2007, 04:10 PMFair enough.  Assuming you agree to contiue to chat about this, a follow up question if you don't ind.

In your experience, has there been any discussion or other concern regarding the possibility of a negligent retention lawsuit?  For example, an officer from Dept. A applies to Dept. B, and fails the poly.  Since he is still employed by Dept. A, but the failed poly is now part of his total employment history, what happens if officer does something to place Dept. A in legal jeopardy, and it is found out that the officer had failed the poly for Dept. B?

Good question.  I have not run into the scenario you describe but would be interesting to consider and further discuss.  However, I am on my out of town (Christmas with the family).  May be gone for a bit.  My regards to all.

Nonombre
Posted by nopolycop
 - Dec 16, 2007, 04:10 PM
Fair enough.  Assuming you agree to contiue to chat about this, a follow up question if you don't ind.

In your experience, has there been any discussion or other concern regarding the possibility of a negligent retention lawsuit?  For example, an officer from Dept. A applies to Dept. B, and fails the poly.  Since he is still employed by Dept. A, but the failed poly is now part of his total employment history, what happens if officer does something to place Dept. A in legal jeopardy, and it is found out that the officer had failed the poly for Dept. B?
Posted by nonombre
 - Dec 16, 2007, 03:01 PM
Quote from: armysgt1965 on Dec 16, 2007, 02:37 PM
Quote from: armysgt1965 on Dec 16, 2007, 02:17 PM

Believe it or not, the error rate is a fact I have always wrestled with.  However, based on the information I have provided, most do agree we NEED the polygraph exam as part of the selection process, because without it, we are truly "flying blind" when hiring people into positions of trust.

A long time ago, when I was a much more curtious poster on this web-site ::), I discussed at some length a suggestion in which the various phases of the hiring process would be "graded" on a numerical scale and that no one part of the process (including polygraph) would be a "show stopper."  Instead, the overall score would have to meet a certain cut-off for the officer to continue in the process.

That would help to mitigate (though not eliminate) risk to the community, while allowing for the subjectivity and error rates of EACH of the parts of the process to be taken into consideration.

The candidate makes the grade, he/she is hired, period.

Just my thoughts...

Nonombre :-?
Posted by nopolycop
 - Dec 16, 2007, 02:37 PM
Quote from: armysgt1965 on Dec 16, 2007, 02:17 PM

Again, thank you for your candid comments, and I fully understand the need to remain anonymous, as I share the same concerns.

Regarding the above quoted material, how do you reconcile the 15% error rate on screening exams, with the harm to a lateral entry applicant who "fails" the poly, but none-the-less told the truth?


Posted by nonombre
 - Dec 16, 2007, 02:17 PM
Quote from: armysgt1965 on Dec 16, 2007, 01:01 PMNon:

Your candid disclosure of polygraph effectiveness is refreshing.  More of this is needed in the polygraph community.  

Assuming that you polygraph lateral entry applicants too, can you give an estimate on how many lateral entry applicants have committed crimes or other indiscretions in their former or current job?  And, how do you deal with those?

Are lateral applicants treated differently regarding the poly than entry level applicants?

NoPoly4Me,

Unfortunately laterals do sometimes fail the polygraph examination and as a result, derogatory (sometimes serious) information is disclosed.

I would give you specific examples, but I am afraid that would help pinpoint my identity for some who would be looking.  I can tell you that we have in some cases opened criminal investigations as the result of lateral entry polygraph exams and have even referred the investigation to other jurisdictions.

This deeply saddens me.

I will reveal one thing I have never discussed on this site.  When I polygraph an officer currently employed by another department, before the examination, I virtually BEG him/her to walk out of the room if there is even a remote chance the polygraph examination is going to cause any "problems."

Most don't leave the room and in fact do just fine on the exam.  Some do not do well and as I have stated, the information revealed has in some cases been unhealthy to the officer's current career.

When that happens it is NOT a joyful day for anyone, not the examinee, not the examiner, not the examinee's current chief, not anyone.

Regards,

Nonombre
Posted by armysgt
 - Dec 16, 2007, 02:08 PM
Nonombre,

  Thanks for responding.  I didn't realize the B.I. had such a low percentage rate.  I am not against using the polygraph for screening LE applicants.  
Posted by nopolycop
 - Dec 16, 2007, 01:01 PM
Non:

Your candid disclosure of polygraph effectiveness is refreshing.  More of this is needed in the polygraph community.  

Assuming that you polygraph lateral entry applicants too, can you give an estimate on how many lateral entry applicants have committed crimes or other indiscretions in their former or current job?  And, how do you deal with those?

Are lateral applicants treated differently regarding the poly than entry level applicants?
Posted by nonombre
 - Dec 16, 2007, 12:08 PM
Quote from: armysgt1965 on Dec 16, 2007, 10:50 AMWhy do Law Enforcement agency re-lie so much on the poly and not the back ground?  It seems to me that they are losing a lot of good people on a machine that is maybe 87% to 93% effective.  Now I understand why so many departments are not meeting there hiring quotas.  I believe a good back ground will reveal more than a machine with a low percentage rate.

Excellent question,

As a former background investigator and current polygraph examiner I feel fairly qualified to answer your question.

First of all, you actually give a little more credit to screening polygraph then the research supports.  It is specific issue polygraph testing with consistant accuracy statistics in the mid 90s.  Screening more consistently averages in the mid 80s.  Now that would seem to make your question even more relevent except for one small point:

Anybody who has ever conducted or has been a consumer of background investigations understands the false negative rate (the rate in which disqualifying behavior was NOT revealed) is EXTREMELY high (somewhere in the 85% to 95% range).  That means disqualifying behavior is not revealed 85-95% on the time!  That makes background investigations only 5% to 15% accurate.  In comparison, screening polygraph averages 85% accuracy.  Now do you see why pre-employment polygraph testing is so prevelent?

How can background investigations be so inaccurate?  Well, the posters on this site would have you believe that background investigators are lazy and incompetent and therefore rely on the poylgraph to do their jobs for them.  Nothing could be further from the truth.

The reality is that unless some record is found that implicates the applicant in wrong doing of some kind (like an arrest record), or an ex-spouse/significant other, angry neighbor provides derogatory information, usually nothing but GLOWING reports come in on the candidate.  

After all, how motivated would you be to crap all over your brother, sister, mother, or close army buddy when the background investigator knocks on your door?  Besides, most people do not advertise that they have committed or are are currently involved in perpetrating felonous behavior.  The polygraph goes right to the source of the information, the candidate him/herself.  Most folks cannot successfully lie to themselves (People with that skill set generally go into politics).

Thanks again for your question and good luck in your future endevours.

Nonombre 8-)
Posted by armysgt
 - Dec 16, 2007, 10:50 AM
Why do Law Enforcement agency re-lie so much on the poly and not the back ground?  It seems to me that they are losing a lot of good people on a machine that is maybe 87% to 93% effective.  Now I understand why so many departments are not meeting there hiring quotas.  I believe a good back ground will reveal more than a machine with a low percentage rate.