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[quote author=Lethe link=msg=25872 date=1191034628]
Paradiddle, you're trying to shift the topic to countermeasures.  Are you guys specifically trained to do that?  Or do you just do so because you are only trained to deal with questions based on countermeasures?

Anyway, I think you're still trying to have it both ways.  But I'm going to skip over much of what you've said because I think I can cut the gordian knot with a single challenge to you.  Now, let us recall the original question that this thread was designed to seek the answer to:

[list]Is an examinee who knows how a probable lie control question test works, all else being equal, less likely to produce accurate results when tested than an identical examinee who is ignorant of how the test works?[/list]
You keep answering "no, no, no" but then go on to say stuff which seems to contradict that denial.  But I will give you an excellent chance to demonstrate the truth of what you claim.  Responding to this opportunity won't even take much of your time, it will be quite simple.  All you need to do is this: give us a list of five of your best control questions.  If, as you claim, knowing what those questions are doesn't decrease accuracy, I see no reason for you to decline this request.  If there is some other reason why you can't share them (they're under copyright, perhaps?) then you are invited to share that reason with us.

As you said previously:

[quote author=Paradiddle link=topic=0.0 date=1190659416][It is incorrect that] an individual must lie (or be lying)on control questions in order for the CQT to be successful. Enough with this fable already. A subject need only have a greater orienting response to controls via nebulous doubts, uncertainty or any other striking response.[/quote]

It seems to me that if you know you're supposed to lie and that you will indeed be maneuvered until you finally relent and tell a lie, that it would be difficult to form an intent to deceive or to be sufficiently anxious about your answer.  Thus it seems important that the subject not know which questions are controls and which questions are relevant in order that his or her physiological reactions be as natural as possible.  Also, the length to which polygraphers go in order to trick their subjects about the control questions seems to belie the claim that knowing what they are wouldn't effect the test.

So, Paradiddle, what are some of the cool control questions that you use?

Or will you abandon this farce and simply admit that a subject who knows the control questions is less likely to produce an accurate chart, even without any countermeasures attempts?
[/quote]

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Topic summary

Posted by pailryder

- Oct 06, 2007, 07:10 AM

Lethe

I am sorry that I my answers have not been helpful. You come at this from an intellectual position with valid thoughtful questions and I can only offer answers based on my observations and experience. Some time ago, I decided to see how an open approach might effect my practice. The other examiners who post here will be horrified when they read this, but I fully discuss with my subjects the role of the CQ, how and why I developed the CQ, and how I expect it to use it to evaluate their response to the RQ. I no longer lie to my subjects and I have observed only positive effects from this change. I have not seen any evidence that this knowledge helps the guilty or hinders the truthful or adversly effects my ability to discriminate between the two. True knowledge, I think, seldom works that way. I know this is not what you want, but it is all that I have. I am not a reseacher, not a scientist, not a logician. Just a guy with a job that goes to the office each day and tries to treat others as I would have them treat me and mine if our roles were reversed.

Thank you for your question and for our discussion.

Posted by Lethe

- Oct 06, 2007, 01:24 AM

Quote from: Paradiddle on Oct 05, 2007, 11:51 PMI must ask. Lethe, why don't you just admit that you are George's alter-ego. Your posts are intentionally cold and inhuman, and George himself never seems to have comment---this being the only long-game thread he has not posted onto---and the diction and rythmic value of your "Lethe" literary style matches that of George's posts and also his sophomoric poetry.

Whether it is sophomoric or not I don't know, but I find George's playful verse to evince more talent than anything I could come up with. As for what you mean by my posts being "intentionally cold and inhuman" I don't know either. I don't see what would be added to my posts by imitating the insulting, juvenile style that other members of this forum take.

Now. Will you answer the actual questions about this thread? In this single thread alone you polygraphers have commented on or asked questions about my avatar, my screen name, my motivations, my background, why I want to know about the polygraph, my opinion of Drew Richardson, whether I interpret Genesis literally, what Richardson's qualifications are or aren't, whether gullible is in the dictionary or not, whether I am pailryder, whether I am George, and on the size of my erect penis. In short, you have talked about just about everything except what I started this thread to talk about: whether or not and how the polygraph works on a perfectly knowledgeable subject who knows how it works and can identify the control questions. And, somehow, Ludovico has it in him to insinuate that I am the one who doesn't want to have a good faith discussion.

Now, let's set that all aside. I don't want to talk about talking about the question that I raised. I want to have it answered.

Posted by Paradiddle

- Oct 05, 2007, 11:51 PM

I must ask. Lethe, why don't you just admit that you are George's alter-ego. Your posts are intentionally cold and inhuman, and George himself never seems to have comment---this being the only long-game thread he has not posted onto---and the diction and rythmic value of your "Lethe" literary style matches that of George's posts and also his sophomoric poetry.

Posted by Lethe

- Oct 05, 2007, 11:28 PM

Quote from: pailryder on Oct 05, 2007, 02:31 AMI forgot to answer your questions.

1. it does
2. I did

If you're talking to me, I'm not sure which questions this paltry answer is in response to. It certainly does nothing to explain how the polygraph can work on a knowledgeable person, which is, after all, the topic of this thread. Really, I don't know what makes you guys think you can get away with claiming that I don't want to have a serious discussion, if indeed that charge was leveled at me.

Maybe we need to back up a few steps and go through this more slowly. How about we start simple? Let's try this one: does the size or magnitude of the threat that the subject feels from either the control and/or the relevant questions have to be taken into account when setting up an exam, or is the magnitude of the threat irrelevant?

Here are some other questions that you could explore as you talk me through this and try to make your case, assuming you stick to your story:

We stand in readiness to receive the knowledge which you are able to impart to our ignorant minds. Remember, since you claim that knowing how the exam works doesn't effect its accuracy, you have no reason to not share the information with us. Also, if you are correct in that, sharing the information won't help rapists and pedophiles pass the exam. If you cry uncle and admit that knowing how the exam works significantly degrades its accuracy, I'd be happy to bring this thread to a close.

Posted by pailryder

- Oct 05, 2007, 03:07 AM

Just so everyone knows, Lethe and I are not confederates, and I'd be willing to take a polygraph test to prove it. Before you ask, no Ludovico, not from you.

Posted by pailryder

- Oct 05, 2007, 02:31 AM

I forgot to answer your questions.

1. it does
2. I did

Posted by pailryder

- Oct 05, 2007, 02:28 AM

No, no, go not to Lethe, neither twist
Wolf's-bane, tight-rooted, for its poisonous wine.

Keats Ode on Melancholy (1820) st. 1

Damn, maybe I'm not a polyex after all! Everyone knows they don't read poetry. As for the Rebel flag avatar, Hoddy Toddy, Ludovico. Hell boys, I've been a confederate all my life. If people on this board would stop treating the truth like toilet tissue, maybe, no sorry, ignore that. Discussion on this board will never rise above the level of clone on clone violence on Jim Rome's sports radio show.

But that gullible gag was funny.

Posted by Mysterymeat

- Oct 05, 2007, 12:42 AM

Lethe-Argic,

Where the HAALE are you coming from?? Your posts continue to deteriorate in intelligence! Speak to a topic or find another cause!

MM

Posted by Lethe

- Oct 05, 2007, 12:36 AM

Quote from: Ludovico on Oct 04, 2007, 08:31 PMYour confederate started to realize we are on to his gag.

And what, precisely, was his gag? He was simply responding to the questions that I was posing to him. I deny that he and I were in collusion, nor do I see what either of us would gain thereby.

But regardless of whether we were colluding or not, his responses were either accurate, inaccurate, or a combination of both accurate and inaccurate responses. If inaccurate, was he attempting to mislead me? Or were both he and I trying to mislead people? If the later, why would I not just create another account--it would be simple enough--and run both sides of the conversation? That would ensure consistency and that the point that I wanted to get across would prevail; involving a confederate would simply make carrying any plot into execution more difficult with no gain.

And if the information that he was giving was accurate, wherein lies the gag? Really, that is simply too much violence for even polygraphers to do to the truth, to call accurate answers to meaningful and important questions a gag. But the logic of the polygraph demands that, doesn't it? You must cover up the truth in order for the lie detector to work with any degree of accuracy. In your own minds, you are helping people by attacking those who are spreading the truth and, to be sure, there is some accuracy to these claims; ignorant people are more likely to produce accurate results than informed people. Polygraphers are perforce anti-education.

Posted by Ludovico

- Oct 04, 2007, 08:31 PM

Your confederate started to realize we are on to his gag.

Posted by Lethe

- Oct 04, 2007, 03:18 PM

Quote from: pailryder on Oct 04, 2007, 07:11 AMLethe

I have been advised not to twist Wolf's-bane, tight-rooted, for its poisonous wine. Any comment?

No, none. Except to wonder why you do not either (1) admit frankly that the polygraph doesn't work well on people who know how it works, thus the necessity of keeping such information from the masses or (2) explaining how the knowledgeable person will be sufficiently anxious about the control questions to produce a chart not significantly inferior in accuracy to that of an ignorant subject.

It seems that you are now goose stepping in line with the rest of your profession. What took you so long?

Posted by pailryder

- Oct 04, 2007, 07:11 AM

Lethe

I have been advised not to twist Wolf's-bane, tight-rooted, for its poisonous wine. Any comment?

Posted by Ludovico

- Oct 03, 2007, 08:45 PM

QuoteYeah, he may not be. For one, he's much more loquacious than you are and for a second thing he's not so much of a dick.

Abuse.

(where's a moderator when you need one.)

"confederate" is the planted audience member, who's in on the gag - the crying girl for Sangya, and PailRyder for you.

Posted by Lethe

- Oct 03, 2007, 08:36 PM

Quote from: Ludovico on Oct 03, 2007, 08:09 PM
QuoteNow, would you care to join the real conversation in this thread, or do you just enjoy throwing off the sorts of comments which we have come to expect of you? Do you maintain that the knowledgeable subject will produce charts just as accurate as the ignorant one? If so, please explain to us why the CQ will produce more anxiety in the innocent subject than the RQ.

No thanks, you're having a fine conversation with the confederate (whom I don't believe is a polygraph examiner - call me suspicious like that)

Yeah, he may not be. For one, he's much more loquacious than you are and for a second thing he's not so much of a dick.

Anyway, what, if anything, that he has said would you say is inaccurate or deficient? If everything that he has said is accurate a conversation with him suits my purposes just fine, since I want to learn about the polygraph, not just talk with people who are practicing polygraphers.

Anyway, is "confederate" a term used in polygraph circles to refer to folks who give up too much info on the polygraph? Or were you just using it of your own initiative? I'm guessing that the Confederate Naval Ensign was your own device.

Hmm. Maybe LieBabyCryBaby will come out of hiding now and pitch in here. After all, we still have zero sensical explanations for how the polygraph doesn't lose accuracy with a knowledgeable subject.

Posted by Ludovico

- Oct 03, 2007, 08:09 PM

QuoteNow, would you care to join the real conversation in this thread, or do you just enjoy throwing off the sorts of comments which we have come to expect of you? Do you maintain that the knowledgeable subject will produce charts just as accurate as the ignorant one? If so, please explain to us why the CQ will produce more anxiety in the innocent subject than the RQ.

No thanks, you're having a fine conversation with the confederate (whom I don't believe is a polygraph examiner - call me suspicious like that)