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Posted by InnocentWithPTSD
- Aug 07, 2007, 09:02 AMQuote from: nonombre on Aug 04, 2007, 04:09 PMQuote from: EosJupiter on Aug 04, 2007, 01:56 AMQuote from: george-e on Aug 03, 2007, 06:13 PMGeorge,
I agree completely. By the way, have you heard of anybody get hired even after their polygraph results indicate the use of CM's?
george-e,
After reading your initial post, I believe you most likely passed. But you were not suppose to pass. Hence the Countermeasures charge. Now they want another crack at you, so they can eliminate you without having any issues of recourse by you. The LAPD like many City/State/Federal Government Agencies use the polygraph to skirt the EEO rules and laws. They use it to eliminate those they deem not fit or matching a model they feel makes a good LAPD officer. Go back in and pass it again. Give them no excuse not to hire you. Do the exact same thing you did before. If you had success elsewhere you, can do it again. They can't detect mental countermeasures no matter how much they claim they can.
Good Luck and Regards ....
Eos...
Your posting is so full of horse manure that I simply cannot stand by and allow this self deception to continue.
#1. George-e attempted countermeasures, and was caught. LAPD even TOLD him he was caught. Perhaps he was not caught by the first department, but he was clearly caught by LAPD.
#2. I know this simple fact goes against the mantra you all like to sing, but facts are facts...
#3. HOW DARE YOU accuse LAPD of using polygraph or anything else as a means to "skirt the EEO rules and laws." of that they "use it to eliminate those they deem not fit or matching a model they feel makes a good LAPD officer" What B.S. Can you PROVE THAT??!!! Go ahead prove it. Show me one single case where LAPD or any other police department was caught using polygraph in this manner. Don't even try, because you can't. You and George and the others on this site constantly make these grandeose statements and treat them as if they are facts and the worst part is some people are actually gullible enough to believe you.
nonombre:
Of course no one can proove it. How could we? Use a polygraph?
Our government is using illegal search and seizure, in violation of the 4th Ammendment of our Constitution whenever a polygraph machine is attached to a citizen's person.
Lloyd Ploense
Posted by 1904
- Aug 07, 2007, 05:22 AMQuote from: nonombre on Aug 04, 2007, 04:09 PMQuote from: EosJupiter on Aug 04, 2007, 01:56 AMQuote from: george-e on Aug 03, 2007, 06:13 PMGeorge,
#1. George-e attempted countermeasures, and was caught. LAPD even TOLD him he was caught. Perhaps he was not caught by the first department, but he was clearly caught by LAPD.
#2. I know this simple fact goes against the mantra you all like to sing, but facts are facts...
Ombre,
The problem starts with polygraphy. Why do we have to tell the subject to sit still and breathe normally?
what is normal breathing in a stressed situation. Generally, these are ordinary folk, trying to get on with
their lives. They will be stressed in the p/g situation. Their breathing will be somewhat erratic.
The very fact that a subject has to be told to breathe normally is where the BS starts.
I have seen subjects 'trying to breathe normally' and often it was quite amusing. It's such BS and you
know it too.
Just have the cogones to admit it.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Aug 05, 2007, 06:41 AMQuote from: george-e on Aug 03, 2007, 06:13 PMGeorge,
I agree completely. By the way, have you heard of anybody get hired even after their polygraph results indicate the use of CM's?
Within the past year I heard from one LAPD applicant who was accused of using countermeasures but was given a re-test and continued in the hiring process. I did not hear back from the applicant whether (s)he was ultimately hired.
Posted by EosJupiter
- Aug 05, 2007, 01:31 AMNonombre,
To get this response I must have really struck a nerve, I wonder what your F3 responses would have been had you been hooked up. Most likely deemed deceptive of course. Now to dissect your posts. You always give me such great and wonderful things to work with.
He was accused of using countermeasures, not proved and not shaken. And asked to come back for a retest. In your own words, a candidate is never asked back if caught using countermeasures. Nice try but not substantiated. He beat the system and the system default is always the countermeasure charge.
A fact has proven truth and is reliable in its scope, and maintains its value time and again. Something the polygraph cannot do !! You polygraphers may have changed your questioning techniques to remove control/relevant techniques to make it harder for the examinee to figure out what is happening and identify them. But the process and the interrogation techniques remain the same. Defeating the polygraph only requires disbelief, and practice at relaxing, and its the greatest fear you polygraphers have. Once the fear is gone, no adrenal reactions or F3 responses. I have now proven this many times in over the recent year with those I have tutored. Your R/I questions are of no consequence, as they are of the least reliable of the formats, if the polygraph had any reliability at all. Funny I never see any response when I post the 3 things you have to make your polygraph work. Remove the fear, give the examinee knowlege, and they relax. And no amount of pretest psychological prep work is going to change the result. And now that I have figured out the questioning changes, I will make sure that those I mentor are well prepared.
This was the easy question, lets see where to begin. Doe the Rampart scandal come to mind, racial profiling by LAPD, planting evidence to convict gang bangers, ( this really doesn't bother me), but it still wrong. Some of the guilty move to personnel after the scandal. Over a 70% denial rate by LAPD on hiring, especially to women and minorities. And lets see, the polygraph is a filter, pure and simple. And lets see if you don't pass the polygraph, you don't get hired. And I know you don't think that the 70% that is denied a job, all had hidden issues that disqualified them. It the perfect management tool to avoid lawsuits from job descrimination. And its also perfect to remove those that just don't fit the LAPD mold to be an officer. Certainly sounds like a filter to me, and because the determination is final. Wahlah, disqualified without anyway to fight it. And let me remind you of one of your notible polygraph experts, Roy Ortiz, recently demoted for changing polygraph results on candidates he deemed not fitting the LAPD model. How much more proof do you need. There is a link for the Roy Ortiz debacle here on the site:
Link: https://antipolygraph.org/forum/index.php?topic=3602.msg25018#msg25018
You can read all about it. I never post a comment or statement without having the firepower to back it up. But do continue to call on anything you feel I am wrong about. I think I have covered it all.
Regards 8-)
To get this response I must have really struck a nerve, I wonder what your F3 responses would have been had you been hooked up. Most likely deemed deceptive of course. Now to dissect your posts. You always give me such great and wonderful things to work with.
Quote#1. George-e attempted countermeasures, and was caught. LAPD even TOLD him he was caught. Perhaps he was not caught by the first department, but he was clearly caught by LAPD.
He was accused of using countermeasures, not proved and not shaken. And asked to come back for a retest. In your own words, a candidate is never asked back if caught using countermeasures. Nice try but not substantiated. He beat the system and the system default is always the countermeasure charge.
Quote#2. I know this simple fact goes against the mantra you all like to sing, but facts are facts...
A fact has proven truth and is reliable in its scope, and maintains its value time and again. Something the polygraph cannot do !! You polygraphers may have changed your questioning techniques to remove control/relevant techniques to make it harder for the examinee to figure out what is happening and identify them. But the process and the interrogation techniques remain the same. Defeating the polygraph only requires disbelief, and practice at relaxing, and its the greatest fear you polygraphers have. Once the fear is gone, no adrenal reactions or F3 responses. I have now proven this many times in over the recent year with those I have tutored. Your R/I questions are of no consequence, as they are of the least reliable of the formats, if the polygraph had any reliability at all. Funny I never see any response when I post the 3 things you have to make your polygraph work. Remove the fear, give the examinee knowlege, and they relax. And no amount of pretest psychological prep work is going to change the result. And now that I have figured out the questioning changes, I will make sure that those I mentor are well prepared.
Quote#3. HOW DARE YOU accuse LAPD of using polygraph or anything else as a means to "skirt the EEO rules and laws." of that they "use it to eliminate those they deem not fit or matching a model they feel makes a good LAPD officer" What B.S. Can you PROVE THAT??!!! Go ahead prove it. Show me one single case where LAPD or any other police department was caught using polygraph in this manner. Don't even try, because you can't. You and George and the others on this site constantly make these grandeose statements and treat them as if they are facts and the worst part is some people are actually gullible enough to believe you.
This was the easy question, lets see where to begin. Doe the Rampart scandal come to mind, racial profiling by LAPD, planting evidence to convict gang bangers, ( this really doesn't bother me), but it still wrong. Some of the guilty move to personnel after the scandal. Over a 70% denial rate by LAPD on hiring, especially to women and minorities. And lets see, the polygraph is a filter, pure and simple. And lets see if you don't pass the polygraph, you don't get hired. And I know you don't think that the 70% that is denied a job, all had hidden issues that disqualified them. It the perfect management tool to avoid lawsuits from job descrimination. And its also perfect to remove those that just don't fit the LAPD mold to be an officer. Certainly sounds like a filter to me, and because the determination is final. Wahlah, disqualified without anyway to fight it. And let me remind you of one of your notible polygraph experts, Roy Ortiz, recently demoted for changing polygraph results on candidates he deemed not fitting the LAPD model. How much more proof do you need. There is a link for the Roy Ortiz debacle here on the site:
Link: https://antipolygraph.org/forum/index.php?topic=3602.msg25018#msg25018
You can read all about it. I never post a comment or statement without having the firepower to back it up. But do continue to call on anything you feel I am wrong about. I think I have covered it all.
Regards 8-)
Posted by nonombre
- Aug 04, 2007, 04:09 PMQuote from: EosJupiter on Aug 04, 2007, 01:56 AMQuote from: george-e on Aug 03, 2007, 06:13 PMGeorge,
I agree completely. By the way, have you heard of anybody get hired even after their polygraph results indicate the use of CM's?
george-e,
After reading your initial post, I believe you most likely passed. But you were not suppose to pass. Hence the Countermeasures charge. Now they want another crack at you, so they can eliminate you without having any issues of recourse by you. The LAPD like many City/State/Federal Government Agencies use the polygraph to skirt the EEO rules and laws. They use it to eliminate those they deem not fit or matching a model they feel makes a good LAPD officer. Go back in and pass it again. Give them no excuse not to hire you. Do the exact same thing you did before. If you had success elsewhere you, can do it again. They can't detect mental countermeasures no matter how much they claim they can.
Good Luck and Regards ....
Eos...
Your posting is so full of horse manure that I simply cannot stand by and allow this self deception to continue.
#1. George-e attempted countermeasures, and was caught. LAPD even TOLD him he was caught. Perhaps he was not caught by the first department, but he was clearly caught by LAPD.
#2. I know this simple fact goes against the mantra you all like to sing, but facts are facts...
#3. HOW DARE YOU accuse LAPD of using polygraph or anything else as a means to "skirt the EEO rules and laws." of that they "use it to eliminate those they deem not fit or matching a model they feel makes a good LAPD officer" What B.S. Can you PROVE THAT??!!! Go ahead prove it. Show me one single case where LAPD or any other police department was caught using polygraph in this manner. Don't even try, because you can't. You and George and the others on this site constantly make these grandeose statements and treat them as if they are facts and the worst part is some people are actually gullible enough to believe you.
Posted by george-e
- Aug 04, 2007, 02:42 PMThanks for your thoughts guys...
I don't know why LAPD wouldn't consider me a good fit as an officer...I have my Bachelor's Degree, never been arrested, never tried drugs, and an overall clean background in every respect.
I just hope that if I am given another chance at taking the Poly, the examiner will not have pre-determined that i will fail the exam, based on the results of my last Poly. I guess I'll find out.
Any thoughts?
I don't know why LAPD wouldn't consider me a good fit as an officer...I have my Bachelor's Degree, never been arrested, never tried drugs, and an overall clean background in every respect.
I just hope that if I am given another chance at taking the Poly, the examiner will not have pre-determined that i will fail the exam, based on the results of my last Poly. I guess I'll find out.
Any thoughts?
Posted by EosJupiter
- Aug 04, 2007, 01:56 AMQuote from: george-e on Aug 03, 2007, 06:13 PMGeorge,
I agree completely. By the way, have you heard of anybody get hired even after their polygraph results indicate the use of CM's?
george-e,
After reading your initial post, I believe you most likely passed. But you were not suppose to pass. Hence the Countermeasures charge. Now they want another crack at you, so they can eliminate you without having any issues of recourse by you. The LAPD like many City/State/Federal Government Agencies use the polygraph to skirt the EEO rules and laws. They use it to eliminate those they deem not fit or matching a model they feel makes a good LAPD officer. Go back in and pass it again. Give them no excuse not to hire you. Do the exact same thing you did before. If you had success elsewhere you, can do it again. They can't detect mental countermeasures no matter how much they claim they can.
Good Luck and Regards ....
Posted by george-e
- Aug 03, 2007, 06:13 PMGeorge,
I agree completely. By the way, have you heard of anybody get hired even after their polygraph results indicate the use of CM's?
I agree completely. By the way, have you heard of anybody get hired even after their polygraph results indicate the use of CM's?
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Aug 03, 2007, 12:22 AMIf the LAPD were truly confident in its determinations that examinees have employed countermeasures, they wouldn't feel the need to badger them for admissions and they wouldn't offer them re-tests.
Posted by george-e
- Aug 02, 2007, 07:09 PMI am applying to a couple LE Departments, one of which is LAPD. I took a Poly with LAPD some time ago, and despite complete honesty on my part, I was DQ'ed for being "deceptive." I began doing research on polygraphy, and decided to re-apply with LAPD and another LE agency. I employed countermeasures on my poly with this other LE agency, and passed without a problem. I then showed up to my poly with LAPD, and employed the same countermeasures; the results weren't what I expected. At the end of the 3 test cycles, the examiner left the room. When the examiner returned, he claimed that my breathing was "clearly artificial." He began asking about which websites I had researched about countermeasures. He said that if I told him, he can "try to atleast get me a re-test." From my research, I knew that he was just fishing for a confession. I denied all claims of using CM's, and he said the results were going to be looked at byanother examiner and personnel should contact me.
I really thought the examiner might've been bluffing, but apparently not...I recently found out that my results indicated that I used CM's, and that I was probably gonna have to re-take the poly.
Has anybody experienced anything like this? If I am given a chance to take another poly, should I try using the CM's again? Does anybody know if examiners compare charts (my breathing during the last poly versus my breathing during my upcoming poly?)
I really thought the examiner might've been bluffing, but apparently not...I recently found out that my results indicated that I used CM's, and that I was probably gonna have to re-take the poly.
Has anybody experienced anything like this? If I am given a chance to take another poly, should I try using the CM's again? Does anybody know if examiners compare charts (my breathing during the last poly versus my breathing during my upcoming poly?)