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A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by EosJupiter
- Aug 04, 2007, 01:44 AMQuote from: InnocentWithPTSD on Aug 03, 2007, 09:52 AMI am he Sir.
The attached file reveals why I feel strongly about the misuse of stress responses.
Lloyd Ploense
Lloyd,
After reading your attachment, I can understand your polygraph position. The upside of you being here is, their is not a polygrapher who can could even match you in discourse. Nor do I think any would even try. Some of the Phd polygraphers might, but I even doubt that too. You should contact a Dr. Alan Zelicoff, Link: http://www.zelicoff.com
You and he will have many great conversations, he is another great scientist and doctor that is strongly antipolygraph. He has some great papers on the subject too.
Welcome again and regards .....
Posted by InnocentWithPTSD
- Aug 03, 2007, 09:52 AMI am he Sir.
The attached file reveals why I feel strongly about the misuse of stress responses.
Lloyd Ploense
Attachment deleted at poster's request -- AntiPolygraph.org Administrator
The attached file reveals why I feel strongly about the misuse of stress responses.
Lloyd Ploense
Attachment deleted at poster's request -- AntiPolygraph.org Administrator
Posted by EosJupiter
- Aug 02, 2007, 06:18 PMQuote from: InnocentWithPTSD on Aug 02, 2007, 08:42 AM
I am not ashamed of my name, it is Lloyd Ploense and I have nothing to hide from anyone.
InnocentWithPTSD,
Are you the same Lloyd Ploense that did the research work on "Spectroscopic promoted alkene isomerizations".
A very interesting read, and if it is, some great work.
Another trained mind joins the fight.
Best Regards ....
Posted by Kalex
- Aug 02, 2007, 11:57 AMQuote from: Twoblock on Aug 02, 2007, 11:44 AMInnocentWithPTSD
Boy, you boggled his brain with that one. He may/may not get back to you in a month or two after he gets someone to explain, in detail, your post. He might even try to use it as a positive for polygraphy.
I agree. I read it 30 mins ago and I'm still laughing my ass off.
Never wake a sleeping giant.
Posted by Twoblock
- Aug 02, 2007, 11:44 AMInnocentWithPTSD
Boy, you boggled his brain with that one. He may/may not get back to you in a month or two after he gets someone to explain, in detail, your post. He might even try to use it as a positive for polygraphy.
Boy, you boggled his brain with that one. He may/may not get back to you in a month or two after he gets someone to explain, in detail, your post. He might even try to use it as a positive for polygraphy.
Posted by InnocentWithPTSD
- Aug 02, 2007, 08:42 AMHello nonombre:
I am not ashamed of my name, it is Lloyd Ploense and I have nothing to hide from anyone.
You seem to be infected with fervor for divination in an almost religious manner. Do you recall one Reverend Jim Jones?
As a scientist, I recognize that cold scientific instruments present many false positives and negatives. To utilize the results of such devices one must demonstrate reasonable correlation coefficients. Also, hypothesis testing must be performed where the statistical significance of the results are evaluated against standards, spikes and blanks.
In the case of mass spectroscopy, only a great fool would assert that detection of a peak at 28 AMU confirmed the presence of nitrogen. We know "cold scientific instruments" have both positive and negative interferences. Through what religion do you claim the capacity to interpret human stress responses as falsehood?
I am not ashamed of my name, it is Lloyd Ploense and I have nothing to hide from anyone.
You seem to be infected with fervor for divination in an almost religious manner. Do you recall one Reverend Jim Jones?
As a scientist, I recognize that cold scientific instruments present many false positives and negatives. To utilize the results of such devices one must demonstrate reasonable correlation coefficients. Also, hypothesis testing must be performed where the statistical significance of the results are evaluated against standards, spikes and blanks.
In the case of mass spectroscopy, only a great fool would assert that detection of a peak at 28 AMU confirmed the presence of nitrogen. We know "cold scientific instruments" have both positive and negative interferences. Through what religion do you claim the capacity to interpret human stress responses as falsehood?
Posted by Kalex
- Aug 01, 2007, 11:10 AMToday I met a polygraphist who told me that in his/her opinion, VSA is total BS, but that she/he was
going to acquire that technology as he/she discovered a huge, regular demand for that service.
Isn't that just so hypocritical of all us Lie-Detectors....?
We know/knew that we are/were dabbling with smoke and mirrors, yet we allowed nothing to stop us.
We justified what we did. We quoted the scientific research of our church, the APA.
We ruined lives, families and society. But we were unstoppable.
Maybe if we repent now, heaven will still let us into the room reserved for INC's.
going to acquire that technology as he/she discovered a huge, regular demand for that service.
Isn't that just so hypocritical of all us Lie-Detectors....?
We know/knew that we are/were dabbling with smoke and mirrors, yet we allowed nothing to stop us.
We justified what we did. We quoted the scientific research of our church, the APA.
We ruined lives, families and society. But we were unstoppable.
Maybe if we repent now, heaven will still let us into the room reserved for INC's.
Posted by EosJupiter
- Jul 27, 2007, 12:35 PMQuote from: Kalex on Jul 26, 2007, 11:01 AMQuote from: EosJupiter on Jul 23, 2007, 06:12 PMKalex,
When its possible post what you can. The biggest fear the polygraph industry hides is MASS non-acceptance or belief in their process and methods. They have spent 70 years building up this fassad, it will take time for the public to fully realize that they are being lied too. But once the mass majority of average citizens disbelieves and says so, the polygraph will cease to exit. Polygraphers fear an informed, intelligent, well read subject, that is not afraid to speak the truth and tell them what a crock their polygraph and process are. And so inclined audacious, skilled, and intelligent individuals armed with countermeasures, are even a bigger fear and threat. It all depends to what level your willing to take the struggle too. Using a lie to catch a liar is a fools errand.
The polygraph industry is always trying to find new venues to exercise the trade, an example are fishing tournaments and other types of events where they can sow suspicion and fear that a contestant might cheat. Cheaters, like liars, and other lower life forms always get caught, what they are selling is just a theory of quicker self gradification.
Regards ..
Hi EOS,
I have the names of 5 examiners who qualified 'there' over the years, but who were not actually able to go out and test anybody, without remediation from colleagues.
They were happy to dish the dirt to myself and others, but not keen to tackle the Instructors and maybe put their 'accreditation' on the line.
Ditto for some of 'The truth doctor' courses. Seems like the Marston syndrome was a festering sore all this time.
APA Accreditation is as worthless as the Phd's of some the leading lights in the DOD industry.
Sincerely,
KALEX,
Whether or not I judge the person as a "Doctor of Philosophy" or a Piled Higher and Deeper type, boils down to the level and quality of research produced. Not the volume of worthless research that seems to be prevelent and done by many of the DOD (self deemed) elite. DOE is also now suffering from this same affliction, many of the great minds and scientists are bailing and going elsewhere. Soon like DOD, the best and brightest will only be 40 watt bulbs. The only saving grace are our men/women in uniform who have to execute and produce, These folks are the true national assets. But again, the best and brightest leave, leaving mainly non-performers and ticket punchers, when we need combat commanders and combat leaders, who don't give a damn about political correctness or expediency.
Regards ....
Posted by Kalex
- Jul 26, 2007, 11:01 AMQuote from: EosJupiter on Jul 23, 2007, 06:12 PMKalex,
When its possible post what you can. The biggest fear the polygraph industry hides is MASS non-acceptance or belief in their process and methods. They have spent 70 years building up this fassad, it will take time for the public to fully realize that they are being lied too. But once the mass majority of average citizens disbelieves and says so, the polygraph will cease to exit. Polygraphers fear an informed, intelligent, well read subject, that is not afraid to speak the truth and tell them what a crock their polygraph and process are. And so inclined audacious, skilled, and intelligent individuals armed with countermeasures, are even a bigger fear and threat. It all depends to what level your willing to take the struggle too. Using a lie to catch a liar is a fools errand.
The polygraph industry is always trying to find new venues to exercise the trade, an example are fishing tournaments and other types of events where they can sow suspicion and fear that a contestant might cheat. Cheaters, like liars, and other lower life forms always get caught, what they are selling is just a theory of quicker self gradification.
Regards ..
Hi EOS,
I have the names of 5 examiners who qualified 'there' over the years, but who were not actually able to go out and test anybody, without remediation from colleagues.
They were happy to dish the dirt to myself and others, but not keen to tackle the Instructors and maybe put their 'accreditation' on the line.
Ditto for some of 'The truth doctor' courses. Seems like the Marston syndrome was a festering sore all this time.
APA Accreditation is as worthless as the Phd's of some the leading lights in the DOD industry.
Sincerely,
Posted by EosJupiter
- Jul 23, 2007, 06:12 PMKalex,
When its possible post what you can. The biggest fear the polygraph industry hides is MASS non-acceptance or belief in their process and methods. They have spent 70 years building up this fassad, it will take time for the public to fully realize that they are being lied too. But once the mass majority of average citizens disbelieves and says so, the polygraph will cease to exit. Polygraphers fear an informed, intelligent, well read subject, that is not afraid to speak the truth and tell them what a crock their polygraph and process are. And so inclined audacious, skilled, and intelligent individuals armed with countermeasures, are even a bigger fear and threat. It all depends to what level your willing to take the struggle too. Using a lie to catch a liar is a fools errand.
The polygraph industry is always trying to find new venues to exercise the trade, an example are fishing tournaments and other types of events where they can sow suspicion and fear that a contestant might cheat. Cheaters, like liars, and other lower life forms always get caught, what they are selling is just a theory of quicker self gradification.
Regards ..
When its possible post what you can. The biggest fear the polygraph industry hides is MASS non-acceptance or belief in their process and methods. They have spent 70 years building up this fassad, it will take time for the public to fully realize that they are being lied too. But once the mass majority of average citizens disbelieves and says so, the polygraph will cease to exit. Polygraphers fear an informed, intelligent, well read subject, that is not afraid to speak the truth and tell them what a crock their polygraph and process are. And so inclined audacious, skilled, and intelligent individuals armed with countermeasures, are even a bigger fear and threat. It all depends to what level your willing to take the struggle too. Using a lie to catch a liar is a fools errand.
The polygraph industry is always trying to find new venues to exercise the trade, an example are fishing tournaments and other types of events where they can sow suspicion and fear that a contestant might cheat. Cheaters, like liars, and other lower life forms always get caught, what they are selling is just a theory of quicker self gradification.
Regards ..
Posted by Kalex
- Jul 23, 2007, 10:02 AMDear EOS,
I spoke to the persons concerned. (note the use of persons instead of people)
They are scared to become embroiled and ultimately to have their identities known.
The American International bunch may find reasons to revoke training certiticates...
So unfortunately, that saga wont go much further for now ( later,,,, maybe )
The one that offered the choices (Results R' Us ) might be an easier one to finger
as the 3 have become 2 / and as you may well know, when the bones are bare,
the hyenas turn upon themselves.
I will keep you informed of new developments.
Rgds,
I spoke to the persons concerned. (note the use of persons instead of people)
They are scared to become embroiled and ultimately to have their identities known.
The American International bunch may find reasons to revoke training certiticates...
So unfortunately, that saga wont go much further for now ( later,,,, maybe )
The one that offered the choices (Results R' Us ) might be an easier one to finger
as the 3 have become 2 / and as you may well know, when the bones are bare,
the hyenas turn upon themselves.
I will keep you informed of new developments.
Rgds,
Posted by EosJupiter
- Jul 21, 2007, 06:23 PMQuote from: Kalex on Jul 21, 2007, 05:23 AMI found your reference to the American International School Of Polygraph to be an interesting choice. This week I met 2 persons that have qualified from that school and neither can score
charts properly or at all; neither can formulate proper Relevant Questions and neither can identify basic, overt countermeasures.
A third person, also having 'qualified' from that great institution, offered a client the choice
of rendering an NDI or DI - wichever the client would prefer.
Otherwise they're all in good shape and ready to wreck careers and lives.
Kalex,
If you have artifacts to post, then send them to George, he has various means to acquire them. It would be good to see them, and be disputed by our resident polygraphers. But on the same note, as is true of most "trade schools - ACICS accredited, don't you know !!", this includes DACA (formerly DODPI), and of course the highly and academically respected, American Polygraph Association (yes, this is satire), if your breathing and have money, guess what your in, no brains required. Just flash the cash and wahlah !!! Your a certified polygrapher, or any other one liners you care to add. So it really does not surprize me from your statements. Its not much of a leap from asking "Are the lights on in the room", (obvious irrelevent question), to "Would you like that supersized with fries". And I have more respect for the laters ability to get the order right. Thanks for a highly entertaining post, I haven't had the chance to do satire in a while.
Regards ....
Posted by Kalex
- Jul 21, 2007, 05:23 AMI found your reference to the American International School Of Polygraph to be an interesting choice. This week I met 2 persons that have qualified from that school and neither can score
charts properly or at all; neither can formulate proper Relevant Questions and neither can identify basic, overt countermeasures.
A third person, also having 'qualified' from that great institution, offered a client the choice
of rendering an NDI or DI - wichever the client would prefer.
Otherwise they're all in good shape and ready to wreck careers and lives.
charts properly or at all; neither can formulate proper Relevant Questions and neither can identify basic, overt countermeasures.
A third person, also having 'qualified' from that great institution, offered a client the choice
of rendering an NDI or DI - wichever the client would prefer.
Otherwise they're all in good shape and ready to wreck careers and lives.
Posted by Kalex
- Jul 21, 2007, 05:23 AMI found you reference to the American International School Of Polygraph to be an interesting choice. This week I met 2 persons that have qualified from that school and neither can score
charts properly or at all; neither can formulate proper Relevant Questions and neither can identify basic, overt countermeasures.
A third person, also having 'qualified' from that great institution, offered a client the choice
of rendering an NDI or DI - wichever the client would prefer.
Otherwise they're all in good shape and ready to wreck careers and lives.
charts properly or at all; neither can formulate proper Relevant Questions and neither can identify basic, overt countermeasures.
A third person, also having 'qualified' from that great institution, offered a client the choice
of rendering an NDI or DI - wichever the client would prefer.
Otherwise they're all in good shape and ready to wreck careers and lives.
Posted by EosJupiter
- Jul 19, 2007, 08:34 PMPalerider, polygraphers ... etc.
It does make it more difficult for you as the truth we post, your training academies provide. In reference:
American International Institute for Polygraph - Morrow, GA.
Link: http://www.polygraphschool.com/catalog.htm
about 3/4's of the way down the page.
So what part of being able to reduce the fear and anxiety which learning and becoming versed in the polygraph procedure isn't understood ? If you can't get the adrenal levels high enough it doesn't work. It will be inconclusive everytime. Knowlege is power and the more the examinee has, the less pressure you can apply. And I don't give a damn about how much experience you may have with Reids or Honts techniques. So my 3 rules above apply and have proven validation thanks to this polygraph school. Its way too easy when your adversaries provide you with the ammunition. And I know I got you cold !!!
Regards ....
It does make it more difficult for you as the truth we post, your training academies provide. In reference:
American International Institute for Polygraph - Morrow, GA.
Link: http://www.polygraphschool.com/catalog.htm
about 3/4's of the way down the page.
QuotePre and Post Test Interviews: Student understanding of and ability to conduct proper pretest interviews to psychologically prepare the examinee for testing; and, student understanding of and ability to conduct appropriate post test interviews to resolve polygraph issues.
So what part of being able to reduce the fear and anxiety which learning and becoming versed in the polygraph procedure isn't understood ? If you can't get the adrenal levels high enough it doesn't work. It will be inconclusive everytime. Knowlege is power and the more the examinee has, the less pressure you can apply. And I don't give a damn about how much experience you may have with Reids or Honts techniques. So my 3 rules above apply and have proven validation thanks to this polygraph school. Its way too easy when your adversaries provide you with the ammunition. And I know I got you cold !!!
Regards ....