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- Jun 11, 2007, 08:40 AMOff topic replies have been moved to This Thread
Posted by 1904
- Jun 05, 2007, 09:50 AMHi George,
Its nevertheless still fundamentally wrong and unreliable to assume that the subject has ever committed the same behaviour earlier in life.
Lets hypothesise that the subject is being tested for direct involvement in an airliner hijacking...the Examiner may not ask a CQ: B4 the age of X-5 did you ever take illegal control of an airplane...The only reliable CQ is prior in life lying to yr inner circle.
Despite your correct inference that p/g examiners try to BS the subject about baseline truth etc...
There is a distinct difference between Baseline Norm and Homeostasis. Baseline Norm is where the
mean tracings run after homeostasis has restored. The IRQ is utilised to allow homeostasis to restore the tracings to the subjects baseline norm (norm for the situation) - but they are not one and the same thing.
No wonder you didnt want to go and Rock n Roll with Doug ..whatsisname....Its a helluva long way to go
from Holland to Redneckville, merely to engage a deluded megalomaniac.
Sincere Regards,
1904
Its nevertheless still fundamentally wrong and unreliable to assume that the subject has ever committed the same behaviour earlier in life.
Lets hypothesise that the subject is being tested for direct involvement in an airliner hijacking...the Examiner may not ask a CQ: B4 the age of X-5 did you ever take illegal control of an airplane...The only reliable CQ is prior in life lying to yr inner circle.
Despite your correct inference that p/g examiners try to BS the subject about baseline truth etc...
There is a distinct difference between Baseline Norm and Homeostasis. Baseline Norm is where the
mean tracings run after homeostasis has restored. The IRQ is utilised to allow homeostasis to restore the tracings to the subjects baseline norm (norm for the situation) - but they are not one and the same thing.
No wonder you didnt want to go and Rock n Roll with Doug ..whatsisname....Its a helluva long way to go
from Holland to Redneckville, merely to engage a deluded megalomaniac.
Sincere Regards,
1904
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Jun 05, 2007, 06:01 AMQuote from: 1904 on Jun 04, 2007, 10:16 AMThen you said that the p/g measures BP. It doesnt measure blood pressure. The examiner doesn't take
any cognisance of pulse rate change (even if there was one) - The examiner looks for and scores the
increase in blood volume recorded between RQ's and CQ's. The rise and fall of the mean cardio tracing
is related to the change in blood volume. not blood pressure.
Good points. Indeed, it is not actually blood pressure in any absolute sense that is being measured, but rather relative changes in blood volume. While pulse rate is indeed reflected in the polygraph charts, and as late as 2004 changes therein were considered by federal polygraphers to be scorable reactions, under DoDPI/DACA's scoring rules published in October 2006 this is no longer so. See, DoDPI Changes Polygraph Chart Scoring Rules.
QuoteThen, the IRQ is not used to establish baseline norms. The IRQ is used to restore homeostasis in the examinee.
What is the difference between homeostasis and a baseline norm? My point in the interview was that polygraphers commonly (but falsely) introduce the irrelevant questions to examinees as providing a "baseline for truth," whereas, in fact, they are not scored at all.
QuoteCQ's: Any examiner who constructs a CQ base don the same type of issue/crime being tested in the
RQ, is an asshole. One may never assume that the examinee has done the same thing earlier in life.
Just by making that assumption and posing such question to the examinee skews the entire test, because
there is no scientifically validated 'same response' for all people to an incorrect inference.
The safest CQ is the assumed lie control. The only assumption we can eve rmake about anyone's past is
that they have lied to persons in their 'inner circle'.
In the Kircus case, we don't know what control questions were asked. However, it is not uncommon for polygraphers use behavior other than lying to one's inner circle as the motif for a control question, and it is common practice to use a control question that is somehow similar in nature to the relevant question. For example, if the relevant question were about a theft that happened this year, a probable-lie control question used might be, "Before 2007, did you ever take anything that did not belong to you?"
QuoteLastly, by 'deluded persons' I presume that you are referring to someone with a psychiatric condition.
In reality, such person would probably never appear before a p/g examiner because by the time they reach late teens they are institutionalised. I think you were thinking of sociopaths..? and anyway they
theoretically are good subject material because they fear consequences and loss of liberty/benefits
more than do 'normal' people.
In the context of the interview, when I spoke of a "deluded" person, I meant more properly a "delusional" person, that is, one with "a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact." I wasn't thinking of sociopaths.
Posted by 1904
- Jun 04, 2007, 10:16 AMQuote from: George W. Maschke on May 31, 2007, 02:10 PMThis morning, I was interviewed by Marc Moser and Sandy Clough ("The Sports Guys") on Denver AM radio station 950 ("The Fan"). The immediate occasion for the interview was the recent polygraph examination taken by Denver Broncos receiver David Kircus, who recently took a private polygraph examination regarding a fistfight over which he now faces felony assault charges. The interview may be downloaded as a 6.6 mb MP3 file here:
https://antipolygraph.org/audio/sportsradio-denver-am950-31-05-2007.mp3
Hi George,
I listened up to the point where Interviewer quoted Kircus as saying that DK said his career is on the line.
Some observations I made.
Firstly, George!!! you referred to the term 'Conductance' in same sentence as 'resistance'. I'm proud of you.
Then you said that the p/g measures BP. It doesnt measure blood pressure. The examiner doesn't take
any cognisance of pulse rate change (even if there was one) - The examiner looks for and scores the
increase in blood volume recorded between RQ's and CQ's. The rise and fall of the mean cardio tracing
is related to the change in blood volume. not blood pressure.
Then, the IRQ is not used to establish baseline norms. The IRQ is used to restore homeostasis in the examinee.
CQ's: Any examiner who constructs a CQ base don the same type of issue/crime being tested in the
RQ, is an asshole. One may never assume that the examinee has done the same thing earlier in life.
Just by making that assumption and posing such question to the examinee skews the entire test, because
there is no scientifically validated 'same response' for all people to an incorrect inference.
The safest CQ is the assumed lie control. The only assumption we can eve rmake about anyone's past is
that they have lied to persons in their 'inner circle'.
Lastly, by 'deluded persons' I presume that you are referring to someone with a psychiatric condition.
In reality, such person would probably never appear before a p/g examiner because by the time they reach late teens they are institutionalised. I think you were thinking of sociopaths..? and anyway they
theoretically are good subject material because they fear consequences and loss of liberty/benefits
more than do 'normal' people.
Otherwise, you were 100% correct.
Posted by Mr. Truth
- Jun 01, 2007, 06:13 AMSmall world, I was going to post some info about that situation. Shanahan (Denver Broncos coach) is apparently one of the gullible sheep who thinks the lie detector test is good enough to clear someone (or not, based on his statements in the local press). I wonder how he would feel if it had been a murder charge and the smoking gun was in the player's hand? Hey, he passed the lie detector test, so he must not have pulled the trigger. I posted a challenge on a local station's feedback forum offering to demonstrate how the polygraph can be beaten, and easily at that.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- May 31, 2007, 02:10 PMThis morning, I was interviewed by Marc Moser and Sandy Clough ("The Sports Guys") on Denver AM radio station 950 ("The Fan"). The immediate occasion for the interview was the recent polygraph examination taken by Denver Broncos receiver David Kircus, who recently took a private polygraph examination regarding a fistfight over which he now faces felony assault charges. The interview may be downloaded as a 6.6 mb MP3 file here:
https://antipolygraph.org/audio/sportsradio-denver-am950-31-05-2007.mp3
https://antipolygraph.org/audio/sportsradio-denver-am950-31-05-2007.mp3