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A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by TheDevilYouKnow
- Apr 05, 2007, 03:43 AMThanks so much for answering. As I said, I don't want to think this woman had it in for me just because I wasn't being buddy buddy with her and not answering her (fairly personal) questions before the test but, that is my general feeling and I don't like it. I'm going to do my research on this who polygraph stuff and at the very least, try to clear my name. I didn't admit anything to her afterwards because as I said, I was honest. Hopefully, this will work out. I still have a pretty good feeling about it so, I'm glad I got some feedback. Thank you for providing links for more info and taking the time to read the short novel I wrote.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Apr 05, 2007, 02:40 AMRegarding the overinflated pressure cuff, this is a common complaint associated with polygraph "testing," and it is not only women who have complained about it. Your polygrapher's suggestion that it wouldn't have bothered you had you not looked at your hand is absurd.
While it is normal for polygraphers to change the order in which questions are asked, it is not normal to change the way the questions are read. They are supposed to be read in a consistent monotone. By hesitating on the last word of a question, the polygrapher is likely to prompt a physiological reaction as the examinee anticipates the end of the question. This is the sort of behavior that one might expect of a polygrapher deliberately trying to rig an exam.
Yes, she was highly unprofessional. But polygraphy is an ethically dubious "profession" to begin with. It has no scientific basis and depends on the examiner lying to and otherwise deceiving the person being "tested" (and on the examinee's ignorance and fear). For thorough debunking of polygraphy, see The Lie Behind the Lie Detector (1 mb PDF).
You would fail those as well if the polygraph reliably yielded logically consistent results. But the truth of the matter is that polygraphy is flimflam. It is no more surprising that a polygraph would yield such inconsistent results than it is that a Magic 8-Ball might.
Unfortunately, many employers do indeed ascribe to polygraphy a validity that it simply does not possess and proceed to make hiring decisions based upon their deluded belief in the lie detector.
Based on the post-test interrogation that you received, it seems likely that you did indeed "fail" the "test." However, sometimes polygraphers will bluff an examinee who hasn't failed just to see if they can get an admission. If you are informed that you did indeed fail the polygraph, you should contest the results in writing. While a "re-test" may or may not be granted, you don't want the polygrapher's un-rebutted accusation of deception to be the last thing in your applicant file (especially as this file might be shared with other agencies with which you might apply in the future).
Quote from: TheDevilYouKnow on Apr 04, 2007, 05:46 AM
The last batch wasn't bad. The cuff wasn't a vice grip anymore but, I think my previous behavior (hand twitching) really ticked her off. I focused on the wall in front of me like it owed me money and didn't move a muscle because I didn't want her to think I was trying to trick her or the test. She kept changing the way she read the questions and would hesitate on the last word, wait a second or two and then finish the sentence. Kinda odd but, I figured that's the way some examiners change things up....
While it is normal for polygraphers to change the order in which questions are asked, it is not normal to change the way the questions are read. They are supposed to be read in a consistent monotone. By hesitating on the last word of a question, the polygrapher is likely to prompt a physiological reaction as the examinee anticipates the end of the question. This is the sort of behavior that one might expect of a polygrapher deliberately trying to rig an exam.
QuoteMy question is, was this woman highly unprofessional or is it me?
Yes, she was highly unprofessional. But polygraphy is an ethically dubious "profession" to begin with. It has no scientific basis and depends on the examiner lying to and otherwise deceiving the person being "tested" (and on the examinee's ignorance and fear). For thorough debunking of polygraphy, see The Lie Behind the Lie Detector (1 mb PDF).
Quote...I don't get why I passed certain questions like "Are you purposely withholding information from me?" and "Have you ever taken belongings that didn't belong to you"? Wouldn't I fail those as well if I was lying about taking drugs and stealing?
You would fail those as well if the polygraph reliably yielded logically consistent results. But the truth of the matter is that polygraphy is flimflam. It is no more surprising that a polygraph would yield such inconsistent results than it is that a Magic 8-Ball might.
QuoteAm I pretty much doomed or should I call someone there and try to get another test on my own without that broad telling them what they should do? I am inclined to defend myself because I didn't do anything wrong and I didn't lie. If I lied, I'd take my knocks and just deal with it. I'd deserve it if I lied and did the drugs and stole. I know for a fact that saints don't work at that jail (do a Google search of Harris County Jail and you'll see what I mean). Do employers put alot of stock into these test and if so, is there a point in trying to take this test over again? I have excellent personal references, loads of experience, never been fired and I've never been arrested. My record is pretty clean especially compared to others who have applied for the same job. I couldn't care less what people think about me personally but, I am concerned over what people think about me professionally. Is this one damn test going to screw up my chances? Any thoughts or ideas are quite welcome!
Unfortunately, many employers do indeed ascribe to polygraphy a validity that it simply does not possess and proceed to make hiring decisions based upon their deluded belief in the lie detector.
Based on the post-test interrogation that you received, it seems likely that you did indeed "fail" the "test." However, sometimes polygraphers will bluff an examinee who hasn't failed just to see if they can get an admission. If you are informed that you did indeed fail the polygraph, you should contest the results in writing. While a "re-test" may or may not be granted, you don't want the polygrapher's un-rebutted accusation of deception to be the last thing in your applicant file (especially as this file might be shared with other agencies with which you might apply in the future).
Posted by TheDevilYouKnow
- Apr 04, 2007, 05:46 AMHey. I found this site and decided to ask for a bit of feedback on a polygraph I took today. I'm applying for a position at a county jail. I had serious misgivings about taking a polygraph since I've read up on them a bit but, since I want this job, I bit the bullet and took the test. Unfortunately, I failed...bummer. :-/ I can acceptable failure and I'll even admit when I'm caught in a lie but, I didn't lie on the two (out of 25) questions I was asked. Here's the back story (hold on, it's a long one!).
My examiner was 30 minutes late to the exam. Fine, whatever. We're all late at some time. No biggie. Then, as soon as I walk in the door, she starts asking me about my race. I'm biracial (black & white) but I can pass for Hispanic. My last name sounds Spanish and she asked me about it. That's fine, some people are intrigued by that. I have no idea why but, she kept asking me what race I classified myself as. Since I choose both (all PC crap aside), she got irritated and told me I couldn't choose both, pick one. Blah blah blah, long story short, I told her to put down 'black'. I wanted to get off that stupid topic because it is irrelevant to me and I rarely even answer that question on forms because, there's no point.
So, pre-interview. She asks me about drug use. I admitted to trying pot twice about 10 years ago (I was 19 then). Haven't touched it or any other drug since. Same with stealing. I stole makeup and cassette singles (THAT is how long ago it was!) when I was about 12. She wrote it all down and I initialed it. Then she straps me to the machine. While she's doing that, she keeps asking me about my former job at a prison. I told her it was no big deal and I left the job because of the drama. In reality, I got tired of all the dirty officers who brought contraband in to inmates and had relations with them. It's more common than you think and it's hard as hell to work around if you're not corrupt. I didn't elaborate because, hell, I didn't want to! I wanted to take the test and go home already. This sort of irritated her but, whatever.
So, the test begins. At first, the cuff around my left arm was fine. As the test progressed, it started getting increasingly tighter. I have a pretty high threshold for pain and I'm not one to complain about being uncomfortable for a short period of time. I'm really not that touchy. Out of the corner of my eye, I see my arm turning purple! Not pink or red. Purple. By then, my arm and hand are numb and tingly and my hand starts twitching. I can't control it no matter how hard I try. After the first run of questions, she stops the test and tells me (and I'm quoting her verbatim) "I see you moving your lips and blinking rapidly. That shows me you are trying to manipulate the results and your are lying to me when you said you wouldn't. I do believe I need to mark you down as being uncooperative because you're trying to fool me." That totally freaked me out because I didn't want a potential employer to think I can't take a simple test or I'm hiding something. Of course, I told her that was NOT the case and that the cuff was pretty tight. She looked at my hand and rolled her eyes and said, "It's always the women that complain about their hand. Never the guys. That's why I told you to look straight ahead and not at your hand. Didn't you understand that?". Yes, of course I understand simple instructions and if I moved my mouth or blinked rapidly, it wasn't on purpose. She told me that was "nonsense" and that everyone can control their facial ticks and that no one's hand hurts enough for it to twitch uncontrollably. Whatever. I apologized (for what, I don't know) and geared up for round 2 & 3.
The last batch wasn't bad. The cuff wasn't a vice grip anymore but, I think my previous behavior (hand twitching) really ticked her off. I focused on the wall in front of me like it owed me money and didn't move a muscle because I didn't want her to think I was trying to trick her or the test. She kept changing the way she read the questions and would hesitate on the last word, wait a second or two and then finish the sentence. Kinda odd but, I figured that's the way some examiners change things up. After the test, she yanked the finger things off me (no idea what they're called...sorry) and the other straps and doodads told me to go sit outside.
Great. It's done. I told the truth (like an idiot), racked my brain for all the bad things I've ever done and was ready for the results. I come back and she tells me that out of 25 questions, I failed 2 thus, failing the entire test. I failed the questions about drug use and stealing. I was a bit shocked because I was completely honest about everything. Embarrassingly so. She then told me "Well you obviously "forgot" (yep, she used air quotes) about all the drugs you've consumed and what you stole. I guess you should look back on your life and really think about what you've done." Huh? I told her I was honest and I didn't leave one damn thing out. She then told me "I'm sure whatever you forgot to tell me will come back to you soon enough. By then, it might be too late. Maybe you should ask your mom all the bad things you did when you were a kid so that can jog your memory." (For the record, I did and my mom vividly remembers me stealing because she caught me which is why I stopped) I was trying not to be rude or go off on her because this is a person who can tell the people who might hire me that I'm a big old drug addicted thief so, I tried to remain composed. I asked her if this meant I couldn't be considered for employment. She was pretty evasive (payback for earlier I suppose) and just told me that it's up to the powers that be if I can retake the test based on what SHE tells them. I asked her if it was common for people to fail the test if they're being honest and she said "Yeah, but I don't think you're in that boat". Ok, another smart ass comment that I let slide. I thanked her and went to my car and lost my mind. Nothing like driving & crying to make you look psycho to other drivers.
My question is, was this woman highly unprofessional or is it me? I've never taken a polygraph before and I sure as hell don't know how to fool one. I can never pull that kind of crap off so, I just try to tell the truth and do the right thing. In the long run, it's easier, or so I thought. As I said, I worked for the state of Texas for 5 years. I got drug tested randomly and I never failed one during those 5 years. I also dropped the sticky fingers habit before I even entered high school. I don't "forget" to pay for things or just assume something at the store is mine until I pay for it. I don't get why I passed certain questions like "Are you purposely withholding information from me?" and "Have you ever taken belongings that didn't belong to you"? Wouldn't I fail those as well if I was lying about taking drugs and stealing?
I don't want to be conspiracy theory girl and think everyone is out to get me or even entertain the thought that someone made up their mind about me based on a five minute conversation but, I'm seriously not understanding what went wrong here.
I'm not sure what the policy is regarding the failing of polygraph tests are concerning this job. The application doesn't say if you fail, you can't ever reapply but, I know this can't look good. The examiner had no information to tell me about what would happen after this other than "It all depends on what I tell them and how they would like to proceed".
Am I pretty much doomed or should I call someone there and try to get another test on my own without that broad telling them what they should do? I am inclined to defend myself because I didn't do anything wrong and I didn't lie. If I lied, I'd take my knocks and just deal with it. I'd deserve it if I lied and did the drugs and stole. I know for a fact that saints don't work at that jail (do a Google search of Harris County Jail and you'll see what I mean). Do employers put alot of stock into these test and if so, is there a point in trying to take this test over again? I have excellent personal references, loads of experience, never been fired and I've never been arrested. My record is pretty clean especially compared to others who have applied for the same job. I couldn't care less what people think about me personally but, I am concerned over what people think about me professionally. Is this one damn test going to screw up my chances? Any thoughts or ideas are quite welcome!
My examiner was 30 minutes late to the exam. Fine, whatever. We're all late at some time. No biggie. Then, as soon as I walk in the door, she starts asking me about my race. I'm biracial (black & white) but I can pass for Hispanic. My last name sounds Spanish and she asked me about it. That's fine, some people are intrigued by that. I have no idea why but, she kept asking me what race I classified myself as. Since I choose both (all PC crap aside), she got irritated and told me I couldn't choose both, pick one. Blah blah blah, long story short, I told her to put down 'black'. I wanted to get off that stupid topic because it is irrelevant to me and I rarely even answer that question on forms because, there's no point.
So, pre-interview. She asks me about drug use. I admitted to trying pot twice about 10 years ago (I was 19 then). Haven't touched it or any other drug since. Same with stealing. I stole makeup and cassette singles (THAT is how long ago it was!) when I was about 12. She wrote it all down and I initialed it. Then she straps me to the machine. While she's doing that, she keeps asking me about my former job at a prison. I told her it was no big deal and I left the job because of the drama. In reality, I got tired of all the dirty officers who brought contraband in to inmates and had relations with them. It's more common than you think and it's hard as hell to work around if you're not corrupt. I didn't elaborate because, hell, I didn't want to! I wanted to take the test and go home already. This sort of irritated her but, whatever.
So, the test begins. At first, the cuff around my left arm was fine. As the test progressed, it started getting increasingly tighter. I have a pretty high threshold for pain and I'm not one to complain about being uncomfortable for a short period of time. I'm really not that touchy. Out of the corner of my eye, I see my arm turning purple! Not pink or red. Purple. By then, my arm and hand are numb and tingly and my hand starts twitching. I can't control it no matter how hard I try. After the first run of questions, she stops the test and tells me (and I'm quoting her verbatim) "I see you moving your lips and blinking rapidly. That shows me you are trying to manipulate the results and your are lying to me when you said you wouldn't. I do believe I need to mark you down as being uncooperative because you're trying to fool me." That totally freaked me out because I didn't want a potential employer to think I can't take a simple test or I'm hiding something. Of course, I told her that was NOT the case and that the cuff was pretty tight. She looked at my hand and rolled her eyes and said, "It's always the women that complain about their hand. Never the guys. That's why I told you to look straight ahead and not at your hand. Didn't you understand that?". Yes, of course I understand simple instructions and if I moved my mouth or blinked rapidly, it wasn't on purpose. She told me that was "nonsense" and that everyone can control their facial ticks and that no one's hand hurts enough for it to twitch uncontrollably. Whatever. I apologized (for what, I don't know) and geared up for round 2 & 3.
The last batch wasn't bad. The cuff wasn't a vice grip anymore but, I think my previous behavior (hand twitching) really ticked her off. I focused on the wall in front of me like it owed me money and didn't move a muscle because I didn't want her to think I was trying to trick her or the test. She kept changing the way she read the questions and would hesitate on the last word, wait a second or two and then finish the sentence. Kinda odd but, I figured that's the way some examiners change things up. After the test, she yanked the finger things off me (no idea what they're called...sorry) and the other straps and doodads told me to go sit outside.
Great. It's done. I told the truth (like an idiot), racked my brain for all the bad things I've ever done and was ready for the results. I come back and she tells me that out of 25 questions, I failed 2 thus, failing the entire test. I failed the questions about drug use and stealing. I was a bit shocked because I was completely honest about everything. Embarrassingly so. She then told me "Well you obviously "forgot" (yep, she used air quotes) about all the drugs you've consumed and what you stole. I guess you should look back on your life and really think about what you've done." Huh? I told her I was honest and I didn't leave one damn thing out. She then told me "I'm sure whatever you forgot to tell me will come back to you soon enough. By then, it might be too late. Maybe you should ask your mom all the bad things you did when you were a kid so that can jog your memory." (For the record, I did and my mom vividly remembers me stealing because she caught me which is why I stopped) I was trying not to be rude or go off on her because this is a person who can tell the people who might hire me that I'm a big old drug addicted thief so, I tried to remain composed. I asked her if this meant I couldn't be considered for employment. She was pretty evasive (payback for earlier I suppose) and just told me that it's up to the powers that be if I can retake the test based on what SHE tells them. I asked her if it was common for people to fail the test if they're being honest and she said "Yeah, but I don't think you're in that boat". Ok, another smart ass comment that I let slide. I thanked her and went to my car and lost my mind. Nothing like driving & crying to make you look psycho to other drivers.
My question is, was this woman highly unprofessional or is it me? I've never taken a polygraph before and I sure as hell don't know how to fool one. I can never pull that kind of crap off so, I just try to tell the truth and do the right thing. In the long run, it's easier, or so I thought. As I said, I worked for the state of Texas for 5 years. I got drug tested randomly and I never failed one during those 5 years. I also dropped the sticky fingers habit before I even entered high school. I don't "forget" to pay for things or just assume something at the store is mine until I pay for it. I don't get why I passed certain questions like "Are you purposely withholding information from me?" and "Have you ever taken belongings that didn't belong to you"? Wouldn't I fail those as well if I was lying about taking drugs and stealing?
I don't want to be conspiracy theory girl and think everyone is out to get me or even entertain the thought that someone made up their mind about me based on a five minute conversation but, I'm seriously not understanding what went wrong here.
I'm not sure what the policy is regarding the failing of polygraph tests are concerning this job. The application doesn't say if you fail, you can't ever reapply but, I know this can't look good. The examiner had no information to tell me about what would happen after this other than "It all depends on what I tell them and how they would like to proceed".
Am I pretty much doomed or should I call someone there and try to get another test on my own without that broad telling them what they should do? I am inclined to defend myself because I didn't do anything wrong and I didn't lie. If I lied, I'd take my knocks and just deal with it. I'd deserve it if I lied and did the drugs and stole. I know for a fact that saints don't work at that jail (do a Google search of Harris County Jail and you'll see what I mean). Do employers put alot of stock into these test and if so, is there a point in trying to take this test over again? I have excellent personal references, loads of experience, never been fired and I've never been arrested. My record is pretty clean especially compared to others who have applied for the same job. I couldn't care less what people think about me personally but, I am concerned over what people think about me professionally. Is this one damn test going to screw up my chances? Any thoughts or ideas are quite welcome!