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A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by 1904
- May 25, 2007, 09:40 AMQuote from: palerider on May 23, 2007, 10:09 AMMy god! To all anti-folk, you have a psychic on this board. When I read the above post, I was waking up AND smelling the coffee.
I think I'll go to the office and run some polygraph tests.
Yo Surfer Boy - I sat in an Advanced class with 34 other p/g examiners.
Not one of them could identify CM's on charts presented by the
Instructor.
Go Figure and make it a big cup.
Posted by palerider
- May 23, 2007, 10:09 AMMy god! To all anti-folk, you have a psychic on this board. When I read the above post, I was waking up AND smelling the coffee. 
I think I'll go to the office and run some polygraph tests.
I think I'll go to the office and run some polygraph tests.
Posted by 1904
- May 23, 2007, 08:36 AMTO: NONOMBRE & PALERIDER
I find it especially amusing that the two of you express such
profound belief in the accuracy of polygraph technology. (NB
not science). You probably believe in the Tooth Fairy, The Man
In The Moon and Santa.
But I guess that if you faced the universal truth that the polygraph
is unscientific, outdated, junked science - then you would have to
seek a new career path.
How sad that it is that daily you park yourselves behind a computer
screen and find amazement at the unreliable, unstable data being
fed to you by 18th Century technology. You probably also believe
that your p/g is fully digital, computerised technology. (no it aint -
Still converting analogue data via a cheap-n-nasty transducer )
You know, I know, most people with a bit of grey matter know, that
the p/g is a base technology that can be manipulated at will by
examiner and subject alike. P/G mnfrs prop up sales by churning
out so called CM sensors (ha ha ) with which examiners try to impress
hapless subjects. If you're all so good - then why do you have to use
CM add-ons?? Because basically you dunno shite from shinola...
CM's are not news. CM's are part and parcel of p/g technology.
CM's is just another name given to a subject induced response.
Then you Einsteins pretend that you can tell the difference between
organic arousal (what hapened to 'natural' response ?) and artificial
arousal - dream on.
Most p/g cannot identify the most commonly used CM's by chart
analysis alone. That's because most of them should have stuck to
their old jobs where they really shone - like writing out traffic
citations.
One day you'll wake up and smell the coffee.
I find it especially amusing that the two of you express such
profound belief in the accuracy of polygraph technology. (NB
not science). You probably believe in the Tooth Fairy, The Man
In The Moon and Santa.
But I guess that if you faced the universal truth that the polygraph
is unscientific, outdated, junked science - then you would have to
seek a new career path.
How sad that it is that daily you park yourselves behind a computer
screen and find amazement at the unreliable, unstable data being
fed to you by 18th Century technology. You probably also believe
that your p/g is fully digital, computerised technology. (no it aint -
Still converting analogue data via a cheap-n-nasty transducer )
You know, I know, most people with a bit of grey matter know, that
the p/g is a base technology that can be manipulated at will by
examiner and subject alike. P/G mnfrs prop up sales by churning
out so called CM sensors (ha ha ) with which examiners try to impress
hapless subjects. If you're all so good - then why do you have to use
CM add-ons?? Because basically you dunno shite from shinola...
CM's are not news. CM's are part and parcel of p/g technology.
CM's is just another name given to a subject induced response.
Then you Einsteins pretend that you can tell the difference between
organic arousal (what hapened to 'natural' response ?) and artificial
arousal - dream on.
Most p/g cannot identify the most commonly used CM's by chart
analysis alone. That's because most of them should have stuck to
their old jobs where they really shone - like writing out traffic
citations.
One day you'll wake up and smell the coffee.
Posted by palerider
- May 22, 2007, 06:16 PMI'm afraid I've once again mistakenly transmitted the wrong tone of my posts. When I write you here, I suppose I feel a little like a graffiti artist, spray painting insults on the side of a sleazy pawn shop. I'm not scared of any of you, I rather think of you all like special needs clients----clients that talk of performing psychokinesesis------just like James Bond. Of course, if James Bond caused inconclusive polygraph tests------wow, what a feat.
I was out of town and couldn't log on to the site properly---different lap top, and I noticed that the rules of the message board are very implicitly against insulting posters and profanity---all things I've engaged in here as I haven't taken the site seriously enough. When I post, I do not create a scientific treatise or thesis on polygraph---and consequently, I don't bother with spell check---or even attempt at APA writing format bla blah blah. It's a message board, not a rigid uptight forum----or so I though. I will admitt that I loved the torture article by George----it was perfectly executed, and I agree with his views 100% regarding the subject. I feel bad for taking some of the cheap shots here, and I suppose you all deserve more respect despite my thorough disagreement with your opinions. I've never been as angry as my tone, and I have never been scared. Don't flatter yourselves. Again, I apologize to all of the chubby, sexless, James Bond fans here.lol
I was out of town and couldn't log on to the site properly---different lap top, and I noticed that the rules of the message board are very implicitly against insulting posters and profanity---all things I've engaged in here as I haven't taken the site seriously enough. When I post, I do not create a scientific treatise or thesis on polygraph---and consequently, I don't bother with spell check---or even attempt at APA writing format bla blah blah. It's a message board, not a rigid uptight forum----or so I though. I will admitt that I loved the torture article by George----it was perfectly executed, and I agree with his views 100% regarding the subject. I feel bad for taking some of the cheap shots here, and I suppose you all deserve more respect despite my thorough disagreement with your opinions. I've never been as angry as my tone, and I have never been scared. Don't flatter yourselves. Again, I apologize to all of the chubby, sexless, James Bond fans here.lol
Posted by EosJupiter
- May 21, 2007, 01:13 AMpalerider,
Without even lifting a finger, your posts prove that your ability to handle intellect and audacity, is severly limited. Weak posts, weak thoughts,and weak proof, again the only thing you got is ad-hominem attacks. I state again I have no doubt about who the superior intellect would be in the polygraph room, and again the outcome!! But in fairness I will grant you that before I gleened my polygraph knowlege, I would have believed and trusted the polygrapher giving me the test, which was my first mistake. And never again !!! And I fully plan should it happen that I take one again, the complete honesty method will be used, and I will inform that polygrapher, just how much I know, what I truly believe, and just how far to stuff the polygraph. It will guarantee that I never take another. I am not afraid of losing a job especially with any company or organization so narrow minded to put its faith in the polygraph. This beats you without even having to use countermeasures. But the best part is that highly trained, educated people will always work. Its the organization that wanted you, that loses out. And its happening more and more as college students get the knowlege to make an informed decision not to work for companies or organizations that use the polygraph. I am getting too old to put up with this kind of BS in my life. And I will not !!!
As far as SF types, you wouldn't know a tabbed individual, or the owner of a trident, if he came out and slapped you. Which might just happen if you got the wrong person pissed off in the polygraph suite. I will take the 200 lbs remark as a compliment. And do digest this, I have and will continue to train people what a crock the polygraph is. And so far not a dissatisfied customer. The sooner we put you polygraphers out of business the better. Which is why I believe you are so bitter. This site is really hurting you.
Without even lifting a finger, your posts prove that your ability to handle intellect and audacity, is severly limited. Weak posts, weak thoughts,and weak proof, again the only thing you got is ad-hominem attacks. I state again I have no doubt about who the superior intellect would be in the polygraph room, and again the outcome!! But in fairness I will grant you that before I gleened my polygraph knowlege, I would have believed and trusted the polygrapher giving me the test, which was my first mistake. And never again !!! And I fully plan should it happen that I take one again, the complete honesty method will be used, and I will inform that polygrapher, just how much I know, what I truly believe, and just how far to stuff the polygraph. It will guarantee that I never take another. I am not afraid of losing a job especially with any company or organization so narrow minded to put its faith in the polygraph. This beats you without even having to use countermeasures. But the best part is that highly trained, educated people will always work. Its the organization that wanted you, that loses out. And its happening more and more as college students get the knowlege to make an informed decision not to work for companies or organizations that use the polygraph. I am getting too old to put up with this kind of BS in my life. And I will not !!!
As far as SF types, you wouldn't know a tabbed individual, or the owner of a trident, if he came out and slapped you. Which might just happen if you got the wrong person pissed off in the polygraph suite. I will take the 200 lbs remark as a compliment. And do digest this, I have and will continue to train people what a crock the polygraph is. And so far not a dissatisfied customer. The sooner we put you polygraphers out of business the better. Which is why I believe you are so bitter. This site is really hurting you.
Posted by digithead
- May 20, 2007, 04:21 PMQuote from: palerider on May 20, 2007, 10:18 AMI saw a tattered antipolygraph.org bumper sticker on the back of a pizza delivery car. No doubt another success story. I wonder if he was also former special forces----or maybe he was just digithead.
It's funny that you need to imagine me as some bitter pizza deliveryman unable to find work in his chosen field because I couldn't pass a polygraph. Do you often engage in revenge fantasies?
Once again, I have never taken a polygraph nor have I been harmed by the polygraph. I am a criminal justice researcher dismayed by the use of this pseudoscience in law enforcement...
Why do you engage in ad hominem and misdirection? Your continued reliance on logical fallacies is a clear indication of your utter desperation to disparage this site and its information because it is a direct threat to your livelihood. You cannot and you have not cited any research which undermines any of the countermeasure information contained in the peer-reviewed literature summarized by AntiPolygraph.org...
Posted by George W. Maschke
- May 20, 2007, 11:09 AMQuote from: palerider on May 20, 2007, 10:18 AMNoombre makes a good point. Posting my countermeasure charts will elicit one thing, and one thing only. George and the rest of the gang here on gilligans island will claim that the countermeasures are poor---and of course I would agree.
So post the charts and explain why the countermeasures are poor. I am prepared to change my views regarding the advisability of using polygraph countermeasures, and I know precisely what it would take to so persuade me: evidence. Thus far, the polygraph community has offered none. Why don't you be the first?
QuoteEos said: "And lets be honest here, a good chess player never reveals winning moves or strategies. "
I can't argue with you there----except that the site claims to offer winning strategies and yet only offers anonymous stories of success at the game.
Wrong. The countermeasure strategies described in Chapter 4 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector are not based on "anonymous stories of success at the game." They are based on the polygraph literature, again, with references that skeptical readers may check for themselves.
QuoteIf you are the Bobby Fisher of polygraph, than show us a real match through freedom of info act requests.
Specifically what files do you suggest that we request under the Freedom of Information Act?
QuoteIf George was able to acquire the DOD's new scoring criteria only months after internal release, than why can't George supply ---with his resources and turncoats----his own countermeasure charts (graphic success stories.) Isn't it ironic that you nay sayers are always making claims---such as getting your false negatives--and that you have offered not a shred of proof? Can't one of you guys offer your own successful countermeasures rather than imploring an examiner to offer unsuccessful ones? Essentially, this site serves as a "miracle diet"---only without a single picture of the before and after bikini pics. I'm afraid that Antipolygraph.org is no longer the little cult site---in that you have to provide your readership with the pudding. Posters like Eosjupiter claim to have lost 200lbs off the George M. site and I would just like to see a picture of such an outlandish claim ---rather than resorting to me having to post pics of your fat-assed, unsuccessful readership's failures---figuratively speaking. It's simple. This site claims to have a successful recipe to beat the test. Show your readership those successes-------successes made directly as a result of TLBTLD.
First, I must strongly disagree with your characterization of those who have provided information to AntiPolygraph.org as being "turncoats." Truth-telling in the public interest is patriotic.
As for why we don't post the polygraph charts of those who have successfully employed countermeasures: when a person does successfully employ polygraph countermeasures, the polygraph examiner doesn't know it. So how would we obtain the charts?!
QuoteI saw a tattered antipolygraph.org bumper sticker on the back of a pizza delivery car. No doubt another success story. I wonder if he was also former special forces----or maybe he was just digithead.
Sure you did... While our bumber stickers may fade with age, they are made of durable vinyl and not prone to tattering:
QuoteExcuse me while I test pediphiles, your #1 fans. What would your father think George?
It is frightening to think that a charlatan with a polygraph machine such as yourself who doesn't even know how to spell "pedophile" would be making decisions regarding such persons' compliance or non-compliance with the terms of their probation/parole.
Posted by Sergeant1107
- May 20, 2007, 10:57 AMQuote from: palerider on May 20, 2007, 10:18 AMIsn't it ironic that you nay sayers are always making claims---such as getting your false negatives--and that you have offered not a shred of proof?I think it is more ironic that you are decrying the lack of proof offered to show a false negative, when the only "proof" offered to show the three false positives I received was the incorrect opinion of the polygraph examiner.
Perhaps it is simply the limitation of the polygraph itself that, at the conclusion of a test, the only proof that a person passed or failed is the claims made by the examiner and the examinee.
I think that, given such a limitation, the utility of the polygraph is only reasonably used in an attempt to elicit a damaging admission. If at the end of the test there has been no damaging admission the utility of the polygraph has been fully expended.
I use an Intoxilyzer quite often at work in order to measure the blood alcohol content of people I arrest for DUI. If there was a web site which claimed wearing a blue shirt, or singing a song in your head, or biting the side of your tongue while blowing into the machine would permit you to pass even if you had just downed a liter of vodka I would probably get a laugh out of it, but I certainly wouldn't be upset by it. I cannot imagine addressing hideously rude ad hominem attacks at the owner of the web site because he makes available information that, in my opinion, doesn't work. The Intoxilyzer is a scientifically valid method of determining a person's blood alcohol content so fanciful theories of how to "beat" the test wouldn't bother me at all.
The anger directed at George and the comments made, sometimes irresponsibly referencing pedophiles and how George is allegedly "helping" them, indicate to me that the information George has collected and made available on this site is accurate and extremely damaging to the illusion of polygraph testing.
Just to remind everyone, George did not invent the information contained in TLBTLD, he merely amassed it through research. That means the information George makes available on this site was always freely available to anyone who wanted to take the time to find it.
Since the polygraph examiners who post on this site routinely write that countermeasures don't work, and the polygraph is, in fact, a highly accurate instrument for the detection of deception regardless of what the "anti" literature says, why do they spend so much time, energy, and bile vilifying a person who merely collected freely available information and published it in an e-book?
Posted by palerider
- May 20, 2007, 10:18 AMNoombre makes a good point. Posting my countermeasure charts will elicit one thing, and one thing only. George and the rest of the gang here on gilligans island will claim that the countermeasures are poor---and of course I would agree.
Eos said:"And lets be honest here, a good chess player never reveals winning moves or strategies. "
I can't argue with you there----except that the site claims to offer winning strategies and yet only offers anonymous stories of success at the game. If you are the Bobby Fisher of polygraph, than show us a real match through freedom of info act requests.
If George was able to acquire the DOD's new scoring criteria only months after internal release, than why can't George supply ---with his resources and turncoats----his own countermeasure charts (graphic success stories.) Isn't it ironic that you nay sayers are always making claims---such as getting your false negatives--and that you have offered not a shred of proof? Can't one of you guys offer your own successful countermeasures rather than imploring an examiner to offer unsuccessful ones? Essentially, this site serves as a "miracle diet"---only without a single picture of the before and after bikini pics. I'm afraid that Antipolygraph.org is no longer the little cult site---in that you have to provide your readership with the pudding. Posters like Eosjupiter claim to have lost 200lbs off the George M. site and I would just like to see a picture of such an outlandish claim ---rather than resorting to me having to post pics of your fat-assed, unsuccessful readership's failures---figuratively speaking. It's simple. This site claims to have a successful recipe to beat the test. Show your readership those successes-------successes made directly as a result of TLBTLD.
I saw a tattered antipolygraph.org bumper sticker on the back of a pizza delivery car. No doubt another success story. I wonder if he was also former special forces----or maybe he was just digithead.
Excuse me while I test pediphiles, your #1 visitors. I'll be looking for spam. What would your father think, George? My guess is that he would be proud of your work ethic, but disgraced over your chosen cause.
Eos said:"And lets be honest here, a good chess player never reveals winning moves or strategies. "
I can't argue with you there----except that the site claims to offer winning strategies and yet only offers anonymous stories of success at the game. If you are the Bobby Fisher of polygraph, than show us a real match through freedom of info act requests.
If George was able to acquire the DOD's new scoring criteria only months after internal release, than why can't George supply ---with his resources and turncoats----his own countermeasure charts (graphic success stories.) Isn't it ironic that you nay sayers are always making claims---such as getting your false negatives--and that you have offered not a shred of proof? Can't one of you guys offer your own successful countermeasures rather than imploring an examiner to offer unsuccessful ones? Essentially, this site serves as a "miracle diet"---only without a single picture of the before and after bikini pics. I'm afraid that Antipolygraph.org is no longer the little cult site---in that you have to provide your readership with the pudding. Posters like Eosjupiter claim to have lost 200lbs off the George M. site and I would just like to see a picture of such an outlandish claim ---rather than resorting to me having to post pics of your fat-assed, unsuccessful readership's failures---figuratively speaking. It's simple. This site claims to have a successful recipe to beat the test. Show your readership those successes-------successes made directly as a result of TLBTLD.
I saw a tattered antipolygraph.org bumper sticker on the back of a pizza delivery car. No doubt another success story. I wonder if he was also former special forces----or maybe he was just digithead.
Excuse me while I test pediphiles, your #1 visitors. I'll be looking for spam. What would your father think, George? My guess is that he would be proud of your work ethic, but disgraced over your chosen cause.
Posted by underlyingtruth
- May 19, 2007, 02:39 AMQuote
Palerider,
Be careful here, man. These guys would LOVE to get their hands on a set of charts that demonstrate how we separate out CM's from legitimate responses. George Maschke has been after that data for a long time to give him an opportunity to adjust his methods of attack...
Don't let these guys goad you. The outcome isn't worth it...
Regards,
Nonombre
We already know this, but thanks for confirming in writing that you are concerned about George's "methods of attack."
I'm sure that's not what you really meant to communicate...
You say the outcome isn't worth it... I'm curious, what would be the worst case senario?
Posted by George W. Maschke
- May 19, 2007, 12:20 AMQuote from: nonombre on May 18, 2007, 06:39 PMQuote from: George W. Maschke on May 17, 2007, 11:55 PMEosJupiter,
Files cannot be attached to individual users (through private messages), but only to public posts. Palerider expressed the wish that he could post some countermeasure charts. He can, and I have explained how.
There should be no issue here of "hiding strategies." Palerider has claimed elsewhere that identifying charts with countermeasures was "very much like distinguishing steak from spam."
Palerider,
Please posts the countermeasure charts you wanted to share, and explain how you tell "steak from spam." You might want to start a new message thread for this purpose.
Palerider,
Be careful here, man. These guys would LOVE to get their hands on a set of charts that demonstrate how we separate out CM's from legitimate responses. George Maschke has been after that data for a long time to give him an opportunity to adjust his methods of attack...
Don't let these guys goad you. The outcome isn't worth it...
Regards,
Nonombre
Nonombre,
There's little need to worry about Palerider revealing the secret countermeasure divining rituals of the polygraph community. Palerider was no doubt lying when he wrote that he wished he "could post some charts of countermeasures" and that identifying them is "like distinguishing steak from spam."
The polygraph community has no reliable method of countermeasure detection, so the first line of defense is to discourage their use in the first place. Hence Palerider's disinformational campaign on this message board.
If polygraphy were truly robust against countermeasures, it wouldn't matter whether subjects were knowledgeable about 1) polygraph procedure, 2) polygraph countermeasures, and 3) polygraph counter-countermeasures.
Posted by nonombre
- May 18, 2007, 06:39 PMQuote from: George W. Maschke on May 17, 2007, 11:55 PMEosJupiter,
Files cannot be attached to individual users (through private messages), but only to public posts. Palerider expressed the wish that he could post some countermeasure charts. He can, and I have explained how.
There should be no issue here of "hiding strategies." Palerider has claimed elsewhere that identifying charts with countermeasures was "very much like distinguishing steak from spam."
Palerider,
Please posts the countermeasure charts you wanted to share, and explain how you tell "steak from spam." You might want to start a new message thread for this purpose.
Palerider,
Be careful here, man. These guys would LOVE to get their hands on a set of charts that demonstrate how we separate out CM's from legitimate responses. George Maschke has been after that data for a long time to give him an opportunity to adjust his methods of attack...
Don't let these guys goad you. The outcome isn't worth it...
Regards,
Nonombre
Posted by George W. Maschke
- May 17, 2007, 11:55 PMEosJupiter,
Files cannot be attached to individual users (through private messages), but only to public posts. Palerider expressed the wish that he could post some countermeasure charts. He can, and I have explained how.
There should be no issue here of "hiding strategies." Palerider has claimed elsewhere that identifying charts with countermeasures was "very much like distinguishing steak from spam."
Palerider,
Please posts the countermeasure charts you wanted to share, and explain how you tell "steak from spam." You might want to start a new message thread for this purpose.
Files cannot be attached to individual users (through private messages), but only to public posts. Palerider expressed the wish that he could post some countermeasure charts. He can, and I have explained how.
There should be no issue here of "hiding strategies." Palerider has claimed elsewhere that identifying charts with countermeasures was "very much like distinguishing steak from spam."
Palerider,
Please posts the countermeasure charts you wanted to share, and explain how you tell "steak from spam." You might want to start a new message thread for this purpose.
Posted by EosJupiter
- May 17, 2007, 08:14 PMQuote from: palerider on May 17, 2007, 09:13 AMNo sour grapes here man. I'm calling your bluff. Like former privates who, at bars, tell women that they were in special forces, I believe that your prowess regarding polygraph domination is hooey. Send me a private message telling me under what circumstances you have been polygraphed and I'll give you client priv. Give me no identifiable info (name, state.) Impress me and I will give you props. I wish that I could post some charts of countermeasures. For chrissakes, a polygraph debate forum without actual field polygraph charts?! WTF?
This site is all talk---regarding the claims of countermeasure (false negatives) success. You are basically demanding of the polgraph community the equivelant of proving that bigfoot doesn't exist. The burden of proof lies on the lap of you, the advertiser. Do you guys sell antipolygraph.org dueche bags?
palerider,
Send your charts and what ever else you want, and attach them as George has said to either his or my ID. I always consider and give due diligence to real data. And being able to read both the 3 and 7 point scoring system helps too. Yes we can read the charts. Its not rocket surgery to do this. Again you are free to express your viewpoints, unlike your friends website over at the pro polygraph site. But you really need to work on your verbage and base your statements from a position of knowlege. These Ad-Hom attacks really make you look bad. And again its the examiner that has to prove they can catch the countermeasures. And lets be honest here, a good chess player never reveals winning moves or strategies.
Regards ...
Posted by George W. Maschke
- May 17, 2007, 09:46 AMQuote from: palerider on May 17, 2007, 09:13 AMI wish that I could post some charts of countermeasures.
You can. All you need to do is scan them, save them in JPEG, GIF, or PNG format, and attach them to a message board post.