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A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by bozoleclown
- Jul 25, 2006, 06:43 PMQuote from: retcopper on Jul 10, 2006, 10:39 AMcesium
Thank god you are a Canadian. I believe the people here in the USA are sensitive to handicapped people because of our hearts not becasue of any politial corectness garbasge. Maybe you folks up in Canada think that way about disadvantaged people but I can assure you that most of the folks south of you are more compassionate.
Totally distastesful and disgusting.
Holy cow! What kind of crap is that? I'm Canadian and I believe that we are generally much more respectful than maggots like you who go around making generalizations about everybody and anybody...
Sorry about the tough words but I'm...irked.
I have respect for everybody, including disabled people, and including Americans and people like you...
pfff...as if your nation had anything to do with it.
Posted by EosJupiter
- Jul 12, 2006, 02:53 PMQuote from: retcopper on Jul 12, 2006, 01:13 PMEos
No offense taken but I do not believe you can use cms effectively. It always comes back to this but at least we can agree to disagree.
Have a good day.
retcopper,
No offense intended. But the point still remains out there as to why DODPI and the feds are scrambling to find an alternative to the polygraph, with limited results by the way. And having applied the information from this site and other various sources, do know that CM's do work. But since your still one of the few polygraphers that post, you are entitled to your opinion. I for one will not dog you for it.
Regards ....
Posted by underlyingtruth
- Jul 12, 2006, 01:50 PMQuote from: retcopper on Jul 12, 2006, 01:13 PMEos
No offense taken but I do not believe you can use cms effectively. It always comes back to this but at least we can agree to disagree.
Fortunately, for us, your belief is irrelevant. CMs do work very effectively.
Are you willing to put your beliefs to the test?
Posted by retcopper
- Jul 12, 2006, 01:13 PMEos
No offense taken but I do not believe you can use cms effectively. It always comes back to this but at least we can agree to disagree.
Have a good day.
No offense taken but I do not believe you can use cms effectively. It always comes back to this but at least we can agree to disagree.
Have a good day.
Posted by EosJupiter
- Jul 11, 2006, 08:52 PMretcopper,
While your scenario in your view is true, the reality of it is that the response can be suppressed with knowlege and training. That is why you train people for combat or the polygraph with as much real life knowlege and support there is available. Until this website showed up, you polygraphers pretty much had a free shooting range as there was only limited knowlege available to the public. But I do not doubt that you would get the desired responses from someone who has no idea about the polygraph.
Regards ....
While your scenario in your view is true, the reality of it is that the response can be suppressed with knowlege and training. That is why you train people for combat or the polygraph with as much real life knowlege and support there is available. Until this website showed up, you polygraphers pretty much had a free shooting range as there was only limited knowlege available to the public. But I do not doubt that you would get the desired responses from someone who has no idea about the polygraph.
Regards ....
Posted by retcopper
- Jul 11, 2006, 11:14 AMBill
I agree with you, especially in combat situations, contact sports, etc. In those situations you employ physical measures and react quickly to the stimulus and you come away inscathed, injured or killed. In polygraphy pysc set does not allow you to do anything physical to meet the crisis thereby making the physiologial response more intense. This is far from a text book answer. Just my take to try to answer your question.
Have a good day.
I agree with you, especially in combat situations, contact sports, etc. In those situations you employ physical measures and react quickly to the stimulus and you come away inscathed, injured or killed. In polygraphy pysc set does not allow you to do anything physical to meet the crisis thereby making the physiologial response more intense. This is far from a text book answer. Just my take to try to answer your question.
Have a good day.
Posted by cesium_133
- Jul 11, 2006, 05:02 AMQuote from: retcopper on Jul 10, 2006, 10:39 AM
Thank God you are a Canadian. I believe the people here in the USA are sensitive to handicapped people because of our hearts not becasue of any political correctness garbage.
As an analogy to the poly and the way the interrogator works and assumes results, FC is highly instructive. It is another fraud, though perhaps not as insidious as the polygraph. The "examiner" (mom/dad) is deluding only themselves, at no cost to society, and so the myth damages far less...
However, in FC, as in the poly, the examiner seeks to justify his results by arbitrary, unsupported, and outlandish assumptions and techniques- which, as currently constructed, cannot be objectively tested through the scientific method. The parent or examiner makes an assertion, demonstrates his case ex parte, and then is resistant to anyone attempting to dissect the results or seek an alternative explanation.
The victims in FC, if you wish to call them that, are the poor kids who are gaining nothing and having their lives and time wasted on a fallacy. That time could be used in physical or proven mental therapy.
Incidentally, for retcopper the pro-polygraph guy and anyone else wondering, I have the utmost sympathy and compassion for autistic children and their families. I hope they find a treatment tomorrow for this awful affliction. I -do-, though, state facts and observations about their physical movements, grasp of reality, and state of mind. This is to drive home a point, and bluntly, not to insult them. I will not use euphemisms. "Mentally challenged" or "physically challenged" are not in my vocabulary. It's retarded and handicapped, and FC is a sham and another sad lie. It is a falsity, drawing in victims as does polygraphy.
http://www.disabilityhistory.org/images/devel/e_helped.gif
http://www.alaskacoinexchange.com/Stamps%2034/04c%20Employ%20Handicapped.jpg
Check them out. I include these to try to create an atmosphere, at least on this thread, free of pro-poly doublespeak
The victims in polygraphy, who are true victims, are society (who has to pay for a magician's trick), the agencies who get duped into believing that the poly really works, and the examinees who are falsely accused and/or browbeaten and/or denied job opportunities as a result of the polygraph's shortcomings. There have even been reports and posts on here of people getting in trouble with their parole officers over erroneous adverse results...
Spoken without apology...
Posted by cesium_133
- Jul 11, 2006, 04:33 AMQuote from: retcopper on Jul 10, 2006, 11:52 AM(above edited for syntax)
...The fight or flight response is well documented by the medical profession. It is nature's way of the body preparing for self preservation... This is just one way your body prepspares itself for an attack.
Or the body being reflexively defensive, upset, or appalled. Actually, this response can result from just about any negative stimulus. In a ploy (oops, poly) setting, such stimulus -could- be from a lie. It could also result from an abhorrent question (did you kill...), from a stimulating question (have you ever stolen/lied/had coitus with), or from any normative change. It could be from the polygrapher altering his monotone, or even from a random, completely unrelated thought that pops into the mind. This response is -not- exclusive to deception, which may or may not trigger a response.
QuoteIf there is no (psychological) set than the subject will be difficult to test.
No noticeable deviations from "at-rest" readings will indeed make it hard to test someone. If the polyman gets no or little reaction from the CQ's, he won't be able, by his own ludicrous rules, to render an opinion. Not that he could with any certainty, anyhow...
Posted by Bill Crider
- Jul 10, 2006, 05:12 PM"If there are no adverse consequnces of you getting caught in a lie there will be no "pyscological set"."
while this is true, my question is really more of--can there be a psychological set for reasons other than lying? Of course the answer is yes, as I have lived this experience, but your thoughts?
while this is true, my question is really more of--can there be a psychological set for reasons other than lying? Of course the answer is yes, as I have lived this experience, but your thoughts?
Posted by EosJupiter
- Jul 10, 2006, 05:02 PMQuote from: retcopper on Jul 10, 2006, 11:52 AMBill
Good question. The fight or flight response is well documented by the medical profession. It is nautres way of the body preparing for self preservaiton, i.e., when is this mode you will not bleeds as much as if you were not in such a state. This is just one way your body prepspares itself for an attack. Other pysiological changes also occur. When you were a child and told a lie to your parents you were afraid of the repercussions if you got caught. These same pysiological changes occur. If there are no adverse consequnces of you getting caught in a lie there will be no "pyscological set"." If there is no set than the subject will be difficult to test.
Hope I was clear.
Have a good day.
Retcopper,
You forgot to mention one thing about "Acute Stress Response" ie "Fight or Flight". The reaction can be minimalized or negated with proper training and knowlege. So relying on such a primative reaction really buys you nothing. Since fear is only an issue for the uninformed and naieve. Easily controlled for higher level life forms.
Regards ....
Posted by retcopper
- Jul 10, 2006, 11:52 AMBill
Good question. The fight or flight response is well documented by the medical profession. It is nautres way of the body preparing for self preservaiton, i.e., when is this mode you will not bleeds as much as if you were not in such a state. This is just one way your body prepspares itself for an attack. Other pysiological changes also occur. When you were a child and told a lie to your parents you were afraid of the repercussions if you got caught. These same pysiological changes occur. If there are no adverse consequnces of you getting caught in a lie there will be no "pyscological set"." If there is no set than the subject will be difficult to test.
Hope I was clear.
Have a good day.
Good question. The fight or flight response is well documented by the medical profession. It is nautres way of the body preparing for self preservaiton, i.e., when is this mode you will not bleeds as much as if you were not in such a state. This is just one way your body prepspares itself for an attack. Other pysiological changes also occur. When you were a child and told a lie to your parents you were afraid of the repercussions if you got caught. These same pysiological changes occur. If there are no adverse consequnces of you getting caught in a lie there will be no "pyscological set"." If there is no set than the subject will be difficult to test.
Hope I was clear.
Have a good day.
Posted by Bill Crider
- Jul 10, 2006, 11:36 AMretcopper-serious question...
Even opponents of polygraph will concede that the flight or fight response occurs and can be an indication of physiological changes caused by stress due to lying. My question is this.
How is the polygraph community so sure that the cause of the flight ot fight response is always lying such that they feel confident accusing people of it whenever their charts say so?
Even opponents of polygraph will concede that the flight or fight response occurs and can be an indication of physiological changes caused by stress due to lying. My question is this.
How is the polygraph community so sure that the cause of the flight ot fight response is always lying such that they feel confident accusing people of it whenever their charts say so?
Posted by retcopper
- Jul 10, 2006, 10:39 AMcesium
Thank god you are a Canadian. I believe the people here in the USA are sensitive to handicapped people because of our hearts not becasue of any politial corectness garbasge. Maybe you folks up in Canada think that way about disadvantaged people but I can assure you that most of the folks south of you are more compassionate.
Totally distastesful and disgusting.
Thank god you are a Canadian. I believe the people here in the USA are sensitive to handicapped people because of our hearts not becasue of any politial corectness garbasge. Maybe you folks up in Canada think that way about disadvantaged people but I can assure you that most of the folks south of you are more compassionate.
Totally distastesful and disgusting.
Posted by cesium_133
- Jul 08, 2006, 06:11 AMThe future of the poly is as unlikely to produce results as its entire past. It's a Ouija board... and that reminds me of another delusion with some interesting parallels:
About 7-8 years ago, I saw a segment on 60 Minutes about "facilitated communication". Basically, moms and dads of autistic (Rain Man, "my dad lets me drive slow on the driveway" types) children gave their kids a pencil, held their kids' hands, asked them questions, and then supposedly had their kids miraculously tap out on a piece of paper with all 26 letters on it the answer to the questions... questions in complexity similar to:
"Who signed the Declaration of Independence 3x larger than everyone else?"
These kids, who had never spoken in their lives, drooled, wailed like banshees, couldn't control their bodily functions, and usually sat in a corner shaking their heads like the poor cretins they were, all of a sudden started tapping out "John Hancock". I'm not kidding...
However, when the parent didn't know the answer to something the kid should have, even something easy (once, they showed a testee kid a red card and asked him what color the card was), the result came out "There are some things I don't know." Huh, what, wtf? Quid in nomine Dei Omnipotentis...?
Oooookay... now, use Occam's Razor... is it more likely that these kids became savants by the touch of a parent, or is it more likely their moms used their own muscles (unconsciously, or wilfully ignoring the fact) to cause the desired result, like a Ouija board?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facilitated_communication
My point: results can be maipulated in any "test" to the satisfaction of the administrator. Those parents, when confronted with overwhelming evidence about their sadly absurd thesis, would not budge from the contention that little cuckoo Mary or little half-sane Billy could, in fact, "talk". The parents also said they could help their kids "speak". Just like the polygraphers claim that they can take us and "help" us (no) by reading our minds (no again). Delusions of grandeur by the conmen...
BTW, if anyone reading this has a handicapped child, I am not dumping on them or you. I am just not PC, and I call 'em as I see 'em...
About 7-8 years ago, I saw a segment on 60 Minutes about "facilitated communication". Basically, moms and dads of autistic (Rain Man, "my dad lets me drive slow on the driveway" types) children gave their kids a pencil, held their kids' hands, asked them questions, and then supposedly had their kids miraculously tap out on a piece of paper with all 26 letters on it the answer to the questions... questions in complexity similar to:
"Who signed the Declaration of Independence 3x larger than everyone else?"
These kids, who had never spoken in their lives, drooled, wailed like banshees, couldn't control their bodily functions, and usually sat in a corner shaking their heads like the poor cretins they were, all of a sudden started tapping out "John Hancock". I'm not kidding...
However, when the parent didn't know the answer to something the kid should have, even something easy (once, they showed a testee kid a red card and asked him what color the card was), the result came out "There are some things I don't know." Huh, what, wtf? Quid in nomine Dei Omnipotentis...?
Oooookay... now, use Occam's Razor... is it more likely that these kids became savants by the touch of a parent, or is it more likely their moms used their own muscles (unconsciously, or wilfully ignoring the fact) to cause the desired result, like a Ouija board?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facilitated_communication
My point: results can be maipulated in any "test" to the satisfaction of the administrator. Those parents, when confronted with overwhelming evidence about their sadly absurd thesis, would not budge from the contention that little cuckoo Mary or little half-sane Billy could, in fact, "talk". The parents also said they could help their kids "speak". Just like the polygraphers claim that they can take us and "help" us (no) by reading our minds (no again). Delusions of grandeur by the conmen...
BTW, if anyone reading this has a handicapped child, I am not dumping on them or you. I am just not PC, and I call 'em as I see 'em...
Posted by migaveli
- Jun 26, 2006, 08:03 PMI heard this program on NPR and just wanted to share it with everyone. Feel free to add your two cents after listening:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5512022
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5512022