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A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by digithead
- Jun 18, 2006, 08:44 PMQuote from: nonombre on Jun 18, 2006, 11:50 AM
In the very few applicant cases that are not resolved (<8%), I do sometimes wonder if I registered a FP. BTW, the examples you give of, " Maybe it was because he was accused of stealing his grandfather's money when he was a child, when it was really his drug-using cousin." are not truly FP's, as they are issues that were on the applicants mind that he chose not to share with the examiner. A true "FP" occurs when there is absolutely no issue concerning the examinee on the relevant question and he/she still responds consistantly for some unknown reason.
The paragraph above is why I talk at lengh with each examinee. I am not "coercing" the examinee as "Underlying truth" has implied, but giving him/her a chance to talk about whatever is on their mind and may be causing a problem on the polygraph exam.
Wow, that's the closest I've seen one of you guys admit that your machine doesn't detect deception but only emotional response to a question. So how can you make the logical leap that the emotional response is from lying when an examinee is having "issues" with a question?
And less than 8% false positives too! What's your false negative rate? As I asked you before, you probably don't want to think about it, do you?
Posted by underlyingtruth
- Jun 18, 2006, 05:15 PMQuote from: nonombre on Jun 18, 2006, 11:50 AM
...The paragraph above is why I talk at lengh with each examinee. I am not "coercing" the examinee as "Underlying truth" has implied, but giving him/her a chance to talk about whatever is on their mind and may be causing a problem on the polygraph exam...
I have had 3 FPs, each of which I had nothing on my mind and no concerns that I would not "pass". I assumed that if I was telling the truth, I had nothing to worry about. HA! Each time, after being told I failed, I was berated and insulted and called uncooperative because I wouldn't make a "confession" concerning the questions.
Posted by FBI-Reject
- Jun 18, 2006, 01:02 PMI see a very big problem with false positives and the situation I described. It seems to me that honest people who have guilt complexes over the smallest things (me) are most at risk for "failing." Those who are less sensitive or more pathological will register less.
As I got into the test, I kept remembering little things that I knew were of no consequence, but that I felt would cause me to register. I began telling my examiner and he was getting irritated. He told me "your dying a death by a thousand cuts here." To me that was basically saying "shut up and lets get on with it." With that chilling effect, how was someone in my position supposed to bring up anything else after that?
He was arrogant, self-righteous, and rushed during the exam. I had done no research on the exam. My only sin was that I was too nervous for the exam and I began obsessing about all the little things (of no consequence to anyone but me) that I had done.
And as far as my drug example, I think in a lot of cases those reactions are so ingrained or subconcious that the person might not even realize that is why they are reacting.
As I got into the test, I kept remembering little things that I knew were of no consequence, but that I felt would cause me to register. I began telling my examiner and he was getting irritated. He told me "your dying a death by a thousand cuts here." To me that was basically saying "shut up and lets get on with it." With that chilling effect, how was someone in my position supposed to bring up anything else after that?
He was arrogant, self-righteous, and rushed during the exam. I had done no research on the exam. My only sin was that I was too nervous for the exam and I began obsessing about all the little things (of no consequence to anyone but me) that I had done.
And as far as my drug example, I think in a lot of cases those reactions are so ingrained or subconcious that the person might not even realize that is why they are reacting.
Posted by Drew Richardson
- Jun 18, 2006, 12:53 PMNonombre,
You write in part:
A polygraph examination is at best a screening exam. I would suggest a very poor one at that, but nevertheless a screening exam nonetheless. Giving a second polygraph exam or another 100 polygraph exams on the same issues or a subset of the issues is still nothing more than a screening exam(s). A confirmatory diagnostic exam would be one having the following characteristics: orthogonal and independent of the screening exam and one having demonstrated and verifiable increased specificity over the initial screening exam. An additional administered polygraph exam(s) fails on all counts and in no way eliminates the false positives which might be expected from a screening exam but largely eliminated with a properly administered and valid confirmatory exam. I realize that you are not alone within your community regarding this confusion about what is a confirmatory exam, but those in your purported research community should know better. Regards...
You write in part:
Quote...A "confirmatory" polygraph examination is then always run to determine if the examinee is then being truthful....
A polygraph examination is at best a screening exam. I would suggest a very poor one at that, but nevertheless a screening exam nonetheless. Giving a second polygraph exam or another 100 polygraph exams on the same issues or a subset of the issues is still nothing more than a screening exam(s). A confirmatory diagnostic exam would be one having the following characteristics: orthogonal and independent of the screening exam and one having demonstrated and verifiable increased specificity over the initial screening exam. An additional administered polygraph exam(s) fails on all counts and in no way eliminates the false positives which might be expected from a screening exam but largely eliminated with a properly administered and valid confirmatory exam. I realize that you are not alone within your community regarding this confusion about what is a confirmatory exam, but those in your purported research community should know better. Regards...
Posted by nonombre
- Jun 18, 2006, 11:50 AMQuote from: FBI-Reject on Jun 17, 2006, 09:54 PMVery well Nonombre ... but answer me this.
Do you ever go home at night an think, "well that seems like a decent applicant. Maybe he was registering a false positive on the drug abuse question. Maybe it was because he was accused of stealing his grandfather's money when he was a child, when it was really his drug-using cousin."
I don't think all polygraphers are evil, though I believe there are a disproportionate share with inflated egos and a god complex. How many consider the damage they might be doing to our government and to good people?
Since you and "Underlying truth" have asked basically the same question (only I believe you came across a bit more objectively) I will answer you both:
Police applicants/criminal suspects do not provide information in every case in which deception has been diagnosed on a polygraph examination. I will tell you (as many polygraph examiners will) that they do provide information in the vast (and I mean vast) majority of cases. A "confirmatory" polygraph examination is then always run to determine if the examinee is then being truthful.
In the very few applicant cases that are not resolved (<8%), I do sometimes wonder if I registered a FP. BTW, the examples you give of, " Maybe it was because he was accused of stealing his grandfather's money when he was a child, when it was really his drug-using cousin." are not truly FP's, as they are issues that were on the applicants mind that he chose not to share with the examiner. A true "FP" occurs when there is absolutely no issue concerning the examinee on the relevant question and he/she still responds consistantly for some unknown reason.
The paragraph above is why I talk at lengh with each examinee. I am not "coercing" the examinee as "Underlying truth" has implied, but giving him/her a chance to talk about whatever is on their mind and may be causing a problem on the polygraph exam.
To get back to the FP, yes they do occur, that is why if you were to look at my earliest posts, you will see that I support the use of a graded pre-employment process that gives a certain number of points to each stages of the process (interview, written exam, physical, poly, etc), and the point system would be set up so that the applicant could "blow" any portion of the process and still concievably get the job. In this case the "water walking" applicant that many of the posters on this site claim to be, would have stilll gotten the job, even after flaming out on the polygraph exam.
My apologies for any spelling mistakes, my wife is calling me for breakfast and I hate cold eggs.
Regards,
Nonombre
Posted by polyfool
- Jun 17, 2006, 11:26 PMFBI-Reject,
You're in good company on this site as there are many of us who have been left with bad tastes in our mouths after the FBI polygraph experience. I know all too well how you feel. I too, am satisfied with the direction my life has taken since my horrible experience with an FBI polygraph examiner. However, there are reminders for me on a fairly often basis and it does sicken me that I was such a fool to have believed in this so-called test. As a matter of fact, just a couple of days ago I was telling someone how lucky he was to not make it through the FBI's initial testing. I strongly advised him not to re-take the test though he would have been a great agent. I enlightened him about the polygraph and how wacko the agency is to rely on it. He's also very honest and highly analytical--he would have likely done miserably on the poly. I wish I could have been so lucky not to get as far as I did.
FBI-Reject, try not to let it get to you. At least you have a place to vent here and others know exactly how you feel. That should be some comfort as well as the fact that you don't work for an agency foolish enough to rely on the results of one polygraph (an examiner's OPINION) to choose its employees.
You're in good company on this site as there are many of us who have been left with bad tastes in our mouths after the FBI polygraph experience. I know all too well how you feel. I too, am satisfied with the direction my life has taken since my horrible experience with an FBI polygraph examiner. However, there are reminders for me on a fairly often basis and it does sicken me that I was such a fool to have believed in this so-called test. As a matter of fact, just a couple of days ago I was telling someone how lucky he was to not make it through the FBI's initial testing. I strongly advised him not to re-take the test though he would have been a great agent. I enlightened him about the polygraph and how wacko the agency is to rely on it. He's also very honest and highly analytical--he would have likely done miserably on the poly. I wish I could have been so lucky not to get as far as I did.
FBI-Reject, try not to let it get to you. At least you have a place to vent here and others know exactly how you feel. That should be some comfort as well as the fact that you don't work for an agency foolish enough to rely on the results of one polygraph (an examiner's OPINION) to choose its employees.
Posted by underlyingtruth
- Jun 17, 2006, 10:42 PMI couldn't help but notice that each one of your scenarios involved somebody confessing and giving you the information you needed. I have no doubt that you are very good at manipulating people and coercing them to confess. If you think that the end justify the means, then you go right ahead and pat yourself on the back at the end of each day.
I also noticed that you didn't say anything about people that fail polygraphs and don't confess. No doubt, you just assume they are lying and uncooperative. Does it ever cross your mind that they are telling the truth and that you are ruining their lives with your fallible machine?
What have you done for society today? As I said, I think you and other operators like you live in a world of denial where you have convinced yourself that you are doing good and helping people. I think you are forced to believe this way in order to justify your actions and despite how many times you read or hear of a person's life being destroyed; you will choose to believe it is for the good of society.
Posted by FBI-Reject
- Jun 17, 2006, 09:54 PMVery well Nonombre ... but answer me this.
Do you ever go home at night an think, "well that seems like a decent applicant. Maybe he was registering a false positive on the drug abuse question. Maybe it was because he was accused of stealing his grandfather's money when he was a child, when it was really his drug-using cousin."
I don't think all polygraphers are evil, though I believe there are a disproportionate share with inflated egos and a god complex. How many consider the damage they might be doing to our government and to good people?
Do you ever go home at night an think, "well that seems like a decent applicant. Maybe he was registering a false positive on the drug abuse question. Maybe it was because he was accused of stealing his grandfather's money when he was a child, when it was really his drug-using cousin."
I don't think all polygraphers are evil, though I believe there are a disproportionate share with inflated egos and a god complex. How many consider the damage they might be doing to our government and to good people?
Posted by nonombre
- Jun 17, 2006, 02:14 PMQuote from: underlyingtruth on Jun 17, 2006, 02:32 AM
I really don't think they realize how much they affect peoples lifes; nobody could be that evil day after day. I think they live in a world of denial where they have convinced themselves that they are doing good and helping people.
Any comments from polygraphers? Any? Any?
Underlying Truth,
Sure, I would like to comment by repeating a post I made some time back...
Quote from: nonombre on Mar 07, 2006, 10:16 PM
Onesimus,
If you really want to know what polygraphers think when they go home at night, all you have to do is ask one...
Pick one of the choices below. All actually happened and are are each less than a month old...
"Boy am I tired. It took me over three hours to get that thief to confess to taking that T.V. Now I am afraid I have pulled every muscle in my back loading the recovered TV into the evidence van."
or
"Boy, I sure am glad I got such good NDI charts on that woman who was accused of selling drugs by her former employee. I guess I am even happier her former worker failed her polygraph and confessed to planting the drugs in the woman's car."
or
"Boy, I never believed that accused child molester would actually pass his polygraph exam. I really thought he was guilty. Who knew his daughter would involve a friend in a conspiracy to set him up because he made her break up with her dirtbag boyfriend. I guess the letter we later found in boyfriend's room will be good cooberation for dropping the sexual assault case against my examinee."
or
"Boy, am I glad that police applicant finally fessed-up to doing all that stupid stuff he learned on that anti-polygraph web site, cooperated, and FINALLY passed his polygraph exam. He is going to make a fine officer I believe. I am happy I gave him another chance. Really happy."
Yes Mr. Onesimus. Those are the sorts of things I think of as I drive home, dead tired from another day on the job as a police polygraph examiner...
What have you done for society today?
Regards,
Nonombre
Posted by underlyingtruth
- Jun 17, 2006, 02:32 AMQuote from: FBI-Reject on Jun 16, 2006, 11:50 PM
Do polygraphers and the FBI realize how much they traumatize their victims? What they did to me in a two-hour polygraph session will last for the rest of my life.
Meanwhile, my polygrapher probably went home that night, made a bowl of popcorn and watched "American Idol."
I really don't think they realize how much they affect peoples lifes; nobody could be that evil day after day. I think they live in a world of denial where they have convinced themselves that they are doing good and helping people.
Any comments from polygraphers? Any? Any?
Posted by Fair Chance
- Jun 17, 2006, 01:34 AMDear FBI-Reject,
It is a God awful feeling having someone who has no real knowledge of your life telling you that you are a worthless piece of sh__ after two hours of meeting you. I know you were falsely accused. Failing a polygraph pre-screening procedure would not bother a lying person or a person of no integrity.
This site is a life-saver for people falsely accused. I know it to be an infuriating situation. I do not feel your pain but I know what it feels like. I will never forget it either for the rest of my life. What an insult.
Regards.
It is a God awful feeling having someone who has no real knowledge of your life telling you that you are a worthless piece of sh__ after two hours of meeting you. I know you were falsely accused. Failing a polygraph pre-screening procedure would not bother a lying person or a person of no integrity.
This site is a life-saver for people falsely accused. I know it to be an infuriating situation. I do not feel your pain but I know what it feels like. I will never forget it either for the rest of my life. What an insult.
Regards.
Posted by FBI-Reject
- Jun 16, 2006, 11:50 PMJust when I think I am over my FBI trauma, the whole stupid experience flares up again. Three times in three days.
1. Two days ago I saw a recruiter with for my current company (private sector). He said -- "oh yeah, you're the one who worked for the FBI, right?" Through a gritted smile, I had to correct him and let him know it was another famous Government agency with a three-letter acronym.
2. Yesterday, I was waiting for the bus to take me downtown to my new job. Got to talking to a guy and told him about my educational background. He says "hey you ought to consider working for the FBI, they are always looking for people like you." Again with a gritted smile I tell him -- "well I worked in Government, but decided to go back to school and take my career in a new direction."
3. Today, on the bus, I was sitting next to a man who was telling another passenger about his job. Turns out, he does forensic accounting for the FBI. At the end of the ride, we are the only two passengers left in the back of the bus. I couldn't keep it in and I told him "I was offered a job with the FBI, but it was rescinded because I couldn't pass the polygraph." I let him know how poorly I felt I was treated and how disappointing the experience was.
Most of the time I feel good about myself, the direction of my life and career, and the accomplishments I've made in the 2 years since the FBI debacle. Sometimes though, it just all comes flooding back. That's when I hate the FBI for what they did to me emotionally.
Do polygraphers and the FBI realize how much they traumatize their victims? What they did to me in a two-hour polygraph session will last for the rest of my life.
Any dealing with that organization, even in passing, reminds me how they treated me like a piece of garbage not worth the paper my application was printed on.
Meanwhile, my polygrapher probably went home that night, made a bowl of popcorn and watched "American Idol."
Sorry -- I had to vent. But I feel better now.
1. Two days ago I saw a recruiter with for my current company (private sector). He said -- "oh yeah, you're the one who worked for the FBI, right?" Through a gritted smile, I had to correct him and let him know it was another famous Government agency with a three-letter acronym.
2. Yesterday, I was waiting for the bus to take me downtown to my new job. Got to talking to a guy and told him about my educational background. He says "hey you ought to consider working for the FBI, they are always looking for people like you." Again with a gritted smile I tell him -- "well I worked in Government, but decided to go back to school and take my career in a new direction."
3. Today, on the bus, I was sitting next to a man who was telling another passenger about his job. Turns out, he does forensic accounting for the FBI. At the end of the ride, we are the only two passengers left in the back of the bus. I couldn't keep it in and I told him "I was offered a job with the FBI, but it was rescinded because I couldn't pass the polygraph." I let him know how poorly I felt I was treated and how disappointing the experience was.
Most of the time I feel good about myself, the direction of my life and career, and the accomplishments I've made in the 2 years since the FBI debacle. Sometimes though, it just all comes flooding back. That's when I hate the FBI for what they did to me emotionally.
Do polygraphers and the FBI realize how much they traumatize their victims? What they did to me in a two-hour polygraph session will last for the rest of my life.
Any dealing with that organization, even in passing, reminds me how they treated me like a piece of garbage not worth the paper my application was printed on.
Meanwhile, my polygrapher probably went home that night, made a bowl of popcorn and watched "American Idol."
Sorry -- I had to vent. But I feel better now.