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A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by George W. Maschke
- May 21, 2006, 04:10 AMQuote from: allegedliar on May 21, 2006, 03:35 AM(1) does the FBI share a candidate's "not within acceptable parameters" results with CIA, DIA or NSA?
Yes.
Quote(2) What constitutes a "national records check?"
The proper term is "National Agency Check." You'll find it defined in the Security Policy Board's Investigative Standards for Background Investigations for Access to Classified Information:
Quote7. The National Agency Check. The National Agency Check is a part of all investigations and reinvestigations. It consists of a review of (a) investigative and criminal history files of the FBI, including a technical fingerprint search;
(b) OPM's Security/Suitability Investigations Index;
(c) DoD's Defense Clearance and Investigations Index; and
(d) such other national agencies (e.g., CIA, INS) as appropriate to the individual's background.
Posted by nolehce
- May 21, 2006, 03:35 AMQuote from: Fair Chance on May 21, 2006, 02:44 AMBeing found to be not within acceptable parameters would not be such a problem if it did not black mark you from future employment with other Federal Agencies
I have never heard a definitive answer to these two questions: (1) does the FBI share a candidate's "not within acceptable parameters" results with CIA, DIA or NSA? *and* (2) What constitutes a "national records check?"
God knows I'd never again want to work for the FBI after what I went through with their condescension and ineptitude. But I still feel patriotic and might want to serve at another agency someday, polygraph bulls-it notwithstanding.
I would just find it hard to believe that all these agencies that "couldn't connect the dots" pre-9/11 would be able to arrive at an awareness amongst themselves that a candidate for one agency had "failed" a polygraph at another agency.
Can anyone shed definitive light on (1) and (2) above?
Posted by Fair Chance
- May 21, 2006, 02:44 AMDear Breeze,
Your presentation of a 40 to 50 percent initial polygraph exam failure rate with almost a 100% retest failure on appeal says it all. Refusal to allow the process to be recorded avoids accountability.
Being found to be not within acceptable parameters would not be such a problem if it did not black mark you from future employment with other Federal Agencies and leave a cloud of suspicion that you are a security risk.
Too many applicants, too few positions. It is just the law of supply and demand.
I have expounded upon this many times in the past year. Just take a look at about fifty of my most recent post. It is out there to see.
Regards.
Your presentation of a 40 to 50 percent initial polygraph exam failure rate with almost a 100% retest failure on appeal says it all. Refusal to allow the process to be recorded avoids accountability.
Being found to be not within acceptable parameters would not be such a problem if it did not black mark you from future employment with other Federal Agencies and leave a cloud of suspicion that you are a security risk.
Too many applicants, too few positions. It is just the law of supply and demand.
I have expounded upon this many times in the past year. Just take a look at about fifty of my most recent post. It is out there to see.
Regards.
Posted by The_Breeze
- May 20, 2006, 11:52 AMFair Chance
Thanks for the personal clarification. Your balanced view has earned my respect and there is obvious truth in your posts, in contrast to the usual fodder on this site.
But, I was hoping you would give Mystery a realistic heads up about what he can expect, and his chances for success. I hear a little too much idealism in his posts which I fear is about ready to crash into the brick wall that you and I know too well of govt. ineptitude. You may of already done this however, and anyway its up to all of us to make our own way.
I was wondering, and feel free not to answer this, if you had any repercussions from the bureau ( I am making the assumption your now FBI) for posting here. It would of been pretty obvious who you were as I remember your candid past posts. I think that topic could be of great interest to the folks posting here, right or wrong. As we spoke a long time ago, I believe now more than ever that government uses the polygraph as a way to disqualify someone they find unexceptional rather than have to explain it with hard data. Of course this is just a theory, but what do you do with all these overqualified white males? easy; tell them they were not within acceptable limits on the polygraph! The "re-test" seems designed simply to reinforce the first, and to appease the applicant. When I hear 40-50% failure rates at various agencies, I know something else is afoot.
Thanks for the personal clarification. Your balanced view has earned my respect and there is obvious truth in your posts, in contrast to the usual fodder on this site.
But, I was hoping you would give Mystery a realistic heads up about what he can expect, and his chances for success. I hear a little too much idealism in his posts which I fear is about ready to crash into the brick wall that you and I know too well of govt. ineptitude. You may of already done this however, and anyway its up to all of us to make our own way.
I was wondering, and feel free not to answer this, if you had any repercussions from the bureau ( I am making the assumption your now FBI) for posting here. It would of been pretty obvious who you were as I remember your candid past posts. I think that topic could be of great interest to the folks posting here, right or wrong. As we spoke a long time ago, I believe now more than ever that government uses the polygraph as a way to disqualify someone they find unexceptional rather than have to explain it with hard data. Of course this is just a theory, but what do you do with all these overqualified white males? easy; tell them they were not within acceptable limits on the polygraph! The "re-test" seems designed simply to reinforce the first, and to appease the applicant. When I hear 40-50% failure rates at various agencies, I know something else is afoot.
Posted by Fair Chance
- May 20, 2006, 02:57 AMFor the record:
1. The Breeze comes here and post without vicious language which is far better than most of the pro-polygraph posters at this site.
2. The Breeze does not agree with usage of the polygraph for pre-employment screening.
3. The Breeze does agree that the recording of polygraph examination can benefit the examiner and examinee.
4. My limited expererience with polygraph usage in the FBI pre-screening process was horrible. I will keep an open mind and I am still waiting for some third party research (which is not based upon proponents or opponents) of the polygraph used in specific cases.
5. The Breeze at least gives this site a target for their darts. What more can we ask?
Regards.
1. The Breeze comes here and post without vicious language which is far better than most of the pro-polygraph posters at this site.
2. The Breeze does not agree with usage of the polygraph for pre-employment screening.
3. The Breeze does agree that the recording of polygraph examination can benefit the examiner and examinee.
4. My limited expererience with polygraph usage in the FBI pre-screening process was horrible. I will keep an open mind and I am still waiting for some third party research (which is not based upon proponents or opponents) of the polygraph used in specific cases.
5. The Breeze at least gives this site a target for their darts. What more can we ask?
Regards.
Posted by The_Breeze
- May 19, 2006, 10:08 PMMystery
I continue to be amused and charmed by your youth and sensitivity. I think I have been pretty even handed with you, and can certainly justify and explain anything I have said. If you think I am hurting polygraphers in some way by having a discussion of fairness or joking about your obvious youth and naivete' then good luck with the tooth fairy.
May I suggest, as someone who has truly been there and done that, that you develop a bit of a thicker skin and perhaps a sense of humor esp. if you want to work in law enforcement? The human circus is no place for the innocent.
And dont go maxing out moms credit card just yet on new FBI suits. since by your own admission you have tested for other agencies, and still seem to be available on the job market, there is something employers are hesitant about perhaps. They might be looking for some experience to go with that student loan of yours...just a thought. Im done with you, good luck in your chosen profession. You have picked wisely.
Fair Chance-how about some help for this guy?
I continue to be amused and charmed by your youth and sensitivity. I think I have been pretty even handed with you, and can certainly justify and explain anything I have said. If you think I am hurting polygraphers in some way by having a discussion of fairness or joking about your obvious youth and naivete' then good luck with the tooth fairy.
May I suggest, as someone who has truly been there and done that, that you develop a bit of a thicker skin and perhaps a sense of humor esp. if you want to work in law enforcement? The human circus is no place for the innocent.
And dont go maxing out moms credit card just yet on new FBI suits. since by your own admission you have tested for other agencies, and still seem to be available on the job market, there is something employers are hesitant about perhaps. They might be looking for some experience to go with that student loan of yours...just a thought. Im done with you, good luck in your chosen profession. You have picked wisely.
Fair Chance-how about some help for this guy?
Posted by DippityShurff
- May 19, 2006, 09:30 PMI took an SS poly in the 80's and "passed" it. I remember filling out a book that even asked if I had ever screwed an animal (being a GA boy, am glad they didn't ask about watermelons LOL). The book I filled out seemed to ask everything. I am quite certain that it has been changed since then
Good luck
Good luck
Posted by Mr. Mystery
- May 19, 2006, 06:33 PMI think your statements have made my point sufficiently. Please continue with your witty little remarks towards me. They do more to damage the public's perception of polygraphers than I could ever hope to.
I've failed one polygraph with the FBI. I have also passed others with different agencies. By the time I get around to a re-test with the FBI I'll probably have the background investigation wrapped up and be hired.
I've failed one polygraph with the FBI. I have also passed others with different agencies. By the time I get around to a re-test with the FBI I'll probably have the background investigation wrapped up and be hired.
Posted by The_Breeze
- May 19, 2006, 06:22 PMMysterious-
You are professionally accomplished, yet angry at the polygraph for some reason? I am glad you moved away from home, I would guess young to mid 20's, apartment, big car payment.
And I cant believe you take such exception to my obvious fairness statement. A Zebra gets its neck broken by a lion. Fair or unfair? A female co-ed gets raped on campus while walking to her sociology class, Fair?
My evil thoughts exposed to the world searching for a way to beat the polygraph after smoking dope last week? Man, do you sound naive. OK if it makes you feel better, and so the whole anti-polygraph world does not despise me I will now say "that life could possibly be considered unfair, under certain circumstances, depending on your perspective". I hope I have now gotten on your good side.
And finally, could you explain how a botched background is benign, while a polygraph error is sinister? for someone as accomplished as you, you sound like you have hatred for an inanimate object...clearly not healthy.
Based on my experience I would say there is far more room for human mischief in an oral board, background, file review, psychological, and final pre-hire interview than the polygraph.
What have you seen, away from this site? I am assuming you have simply failed a polygraph...anything else?
You are professionally accomplished, yet angry at the polygraph for some reason? I am glad you moved away from home, I would guess young to mid 20's, apartment, big car payment.
And I cant believe you take such exception to my obvious fairness statement. A Zebra gets its neck broken by a lion. Fair or unfair? A female co-ed gets raped on campus while walking to her sociology class, Fair?
My evil thoughts exposed to the world searching for a way to beat the polygraph after smoking dope last week? Man, do you sound naive. OK if it makes you feel better, and so the whole anti-polygraph world does not despise me I will now say "that life could possibly be considered unfair, under certain circumstances, depending on your perspective". I hope I have now gotten on your good side.
And finally, could you explain how a botched background is benign, while a polygraph error is sinister? for someone as accomplished as you, you sound like you have hatred for an inanimate object...clearly not healthy.
Based on my experience I would say there is far more room for human mischief in an oral board, background, file review, psychological, and final pre-hire interview than the polygraph.
What have you seen, away from this site? I am assuming you have simply failed a polygraph...anything else?
Posted by Mr. Mystery
- May 19, 2006, 12:32 PMI assure you I don't live in my parent's basement watching television. I've had plenty of life experience and consider myself to be quite professionally accomplished.
I hope you realize that this web-site is the first response returned by google when someone searches for "polygraph". I encourage you to keep up your "life is unfair" mantra for the whole world to see.
There is a difference between simple bad luck through botched background investigations or poor performance on an oral board, and a system that is well known to be innaccurate and tough on innocent examinees.
I hope you realize that this web-site is the first response returned by google when someone searches for "polygraph". I encourage you to keep up your "life is unfair" mantra for the whole world to see.
There is a difference between simple bad luck through botched background investigations or poor performance on an oral board, and a system that is well known to be innaccurate and tough on innocent examinees.
Posted by The_Breeze
- May 19, 2006, 11:55 AMFair Chance
I guess that means your polygraph odyssey was finally resolved to your satisfaction? your note suggests that you were successfull if not overjoyed. This is why I left federal service afterall and took a cut in pay which took a long time to recoup. I have never looked back. Best of luck to you regardless. We get a couple of SA's a year come back to local law so they can work again!
Mr. Jupiter. I do not have the stomach or time to research your experience, please indulge me in general terms if you want. And most of my comments are not directed specificially to you but rather through you. You might be as book smart as George or Drew with his 12 tests under his belt, but anything else will be for you to describe. A rare person can have special insights into any number of aspects of the applicant process, or even run a 5 minute mile. However this is not typical, and the "average" kid coming here to get smart on the polygraph will not immerse themselves. Perhaps your contempt is simply a combination of arrogance, inexperience and willingness to be a uncritical victims advocate?
And as I remember, Two Block ran heavy equipment or something in Alaska, and was quite an advocate of suing anything that moved funny. I did like his posts, but felt cheated when he did not get me a Caribou tag.
Mr. Mystery. Please re-read my last post carefully- especially the references to what I do. Being in the police environment is not the same as being Ed Gelb. Get it? I observe very qualified people doing any number of specialized things, from polygraph to blood splatter analysis. And my comments about life being unfair should not mean to any thinking person that I somehow advocate unfairness, it just is. Get out more, leave the mall or shut off the comedy channel and see if you can see my point. Of course in a fair world a LE officer would make more than an attorney, and I would finally hit the powerball!
I guess that means your polygraph odyssey was finally resolved to your satisfaction? your note suggests that you were successfull if not overjoyed. This is why I left federal service afterall and took a cut in pay which took a long time to recoup. I have never looked back. Best of luck to you regardless. We get a couple of SA's a year come back to local law so they can work again!
Mr. Jupiter. I do not have the stomach or time to research your experience, please indulge me in general terms if you want. And most of my comments are not directed specificially to you but rather through you. You might be as book smart as George or Drew with his 12 tests under his belt, but anything else will be for you to describe. A rare person can have special insights into any number of aspects of the applicant process, or even run a 5 minute mile. However this is not typical, and the "average" kid coming here to get smart on the polygraph will not immerse themselves. Perhaps your contempt is simply a combination of arrogance, inexperience and willingness to be a uncritical victims advocate?
And as I remember, Two Block ran heavy equipment or something in Alaska, and was quite an advocate of suing anything that moved funny. I did like his posts, but felt cheated when he did not get me a Caribou tag.
Mr. Mystery. Please re-read my last post carefully- especially the references to what I do. Being in the police environment is not the same as being Ed Gelb. Get it? I observe very qualified people doing any number of specialized things, from polygraph to blood splatter analysis. And my comments about life being unfair should not mean to any thinking person that I somehow advocate unfairness, it just is. Get out more, leave the mall or shut off the comedy channel and see if you can see my point. Of course in a fair world a LE officer would make more than an attorney, and I would finally hit the powerball!
Posted by Mr. Mystery
- May 19, 2006, 11:19 AMQuote from: The_Breeze on May 18, 2006, 11:38 PM
Life is filled with unfairness.
At last the true feeling of a polygrapher come out.
I'm quite sure you'd feel differently if you found yourself knocked out of a job based solely on the polygraph.
Posted by EosJupiter
- May 19, 2006, 05:44 AMQuote from: The_Breeze on May 18, 2006, 11:38 PMOk my planetary friend Ill come out of retirement briefly to rehash old arguements-
But first...
I remember a guy (I think) who used to post here years ago going by the mysterious psudonym "Beech Trees". He was arrogant, and quite full of himself which got my attention. Of course, all he knew about the polygraph was what he had read by people who had failed, or George's research, but I repeat myself.
What I liked about Mr.Trees was the way he would describe toying around with polygraphers, using a variety of sophisticated methods...stop me if this gets personal.
While the recently disappointed LAPD kids who had just failed were thrilled to have such a erudite champion, what I heard from this guys posts was an individual not getting accustomed to failure and lashing out at a tool. I am quite sure he was under employed (at least in his mind) and considered life quite unfair.
I guess my observation is that if someone is failing multiple tests, stop blaming a device and look deeper. Truly that which repeats is not due to chance.
Successfull applicants simple dont post here as a rule, and like I tell the folks on my department, its preferable to take advice from those with balance. This is not to say that no one has been cheated out of a viable career shot by the polygraph, indeed some of them post here, but I believe they are the exceptions and I will rely on my own experience, not the assertions that are so common on these pages. See my previous and believe it.
Applicants have also been cheated by sloppy backgrounds, incorrect urinalysis, false credentials of the competition, nepotism, gut feelings, personal prejudice, the MMPI (a whole topic here to explore) and Al Gore wanting to reinvent government! People may have been arrested by an officer fresh from a Reid and Assoc. class on nonverbal behavior...do I need to go on? See any hard science in the above mentioned?
Life is filled with unfairness. I saw a psychologist fail a gal once because she had been abused as a kid, with the rationale that she would not be able to handle a child abuse investigation! I doubt if there is a website set up to handle applicant abuse of that type, but I am not bored enough to look.
You made a comment about "torque". I feel nothing of the sort, as my livlihood in no way depends on the polygraph. If it disappeared tomorrow, I would barely notice as I have a traditional case load. My comments are based on long experience, close observation, and a general lack of hysteria on my part. I came to this site originally when my then Sheriff wanted me to make recommendations to him about availability of technology to support criminal investigations.
The reason I come back periodically is unknown and not rational. But then, I have been known to pet my neighbors 3 legged dog, and give money to crack whores pretending to need a bus ticket!
Breeze,
Again you base your assuptions that I am a novice. As TwoBlock can attest I am not. But history lessons are always good. It is my usual policy to not dispute LEO's as you have a tough job. One I would not even try. I don't have the patience to deal with people that you have to on the streets. I just have issues with the polygraph and its use for employment. Not for its use in criminal investigations. Keep putting the bad guys away is not a problem for me.
Regards ...
Posted by Fair Chance
- May 19, 2006, 01:02 AMDear Breeze,
Still here. I try and give as accurate advice as possible about the chances of getting into the FBI and what to expect when you get there. Like many things in life, the imagined "greener pasture" gets a harsh reality check when you have to actually stomach the grass and find out it is tasteless and dry. The mind tends to focus on the exciting facets of FBI work when most of it is just plain mundane and tedious (similar to most police work which is not at all like what the TV shows display).
Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.
Take care. I check the site out whenever I can get a chance.
Regards.
Still here. I try and give as accurate advice as possible about the chances of getting into the FBI and what to expect when you get there. Like many things in life, the imagined "greener pasture" gets a harsh reality check when you have to actually stomach the grass and find out it is tasteless and dry. The mind tends to focus on the exciting facets of FBI work when most of it is just plain mundane and tedious (similar to most police work which is not at all like what the TV shows display).
Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.
Take care. I check the site out whenever I can get a chance.
Regards.
Posted by The_Breeze
- May 18, 2006, 11:38 PMOk my planetary friend Ill come out of retirement briefly to rehash old arguements-
But first...
I remember a guy (I think) who used to post here years ago going by the mysterious psudonym "Beech Trees". He was arrogant, and quite full of himself which got my attention. Of course, all he knew about the polygraph was what he had read by people who had failed, or George's research, but I repeat myself.
What I liked about Mr.Trees was the way he would describe toying around with polygraphers, using a variety of sophisticated methods...stop me if this gets personal.
While the recently disappointed LAPD kids who had just failed were thrilled to have such a erudite champion, what I heard from this guys posts was an individual not getting accustomed to failure and lashing out at a tool. I am quite sure he was under employed (at least in his mind) and considered life quite unfair.
I guess my observation is that if someone is failing multiple tests, stop blaming a device and look deeper. Truly that which repeats is not due to chance.
Successfull applicants simple dont post here as a rule, and like I tell the folks on my department, its preferable to take advice from those with balance. This is not to say that no one has been cheated out of a viable career shot by the polygraph, indeed some of them post here, but I believe they are the exceptions and I will rely on my own experience, not the assertions that are so common on these pages. See my previous and believe it.
Applicants have also been cheated by sloppy backgrounds, incorrect urinalysis, false credentials of the competition, nepotism, gut feelings, personal prejudice, the MMPI (a whole topic here to explore) and Al Gore wanting to reinvent government! People may have been arrested by an officer fresh from a Reid and Assoc. class on nonverbal behavior...do I need to go on? See any hard science in the above mentioned?
Life is filled with unfairness. I saw a psychologist fail a gal once because she had been abused as a kid, with the rationale that she would not be able to handle a child abuse investigation! I doubt if there is a website set up to handle applicant abuse of that type, but I am not bored enough to look.
You made a comment about "torque". I feel nothing of the sort, as my livlihood in no way depends on the polygraph. If it disappeared tomorrow, I would barely notice as I have a traditional case load. My comments are based on long experience, close observation, and a general lack of hysteria on my part. I came to this site originally when my then Sheriff wanted me to make recommendations to him about availability of technology to support criminal investigations.
The reason I come back periodically is unknown and not rational. But then, I have been known to pet my neighbors 3 legged dog, and give money to crack whores pretending to need a bus ticket!
But first...
I remember a guy (I think) who used to post here years ago going by the mysterious psudonym "Beech Trees". He was arrogant, and quite full of himself which got my attention. Of course, all he knew about the polygraph was what he had read by people who had failed, or George's research, but I repeat myself.
What I liked about Mr.Trees was the way he would describe toying around with polygraphers, using a variety of sophisticated methods...stop me if this gets personal.
While the recently disappointed LAPD kids who had just failed were thrilled to have such a erudite champion, what I heard from this guys posts was an individual not getting accustomed to failure and lashing out at a tool. I am quite sure he was under employed (at least in his mind) and considered life quite unfair.
I guess my observation is that if someone is failing multiple tests, stop blaming a device and look deeper. Truly that which repeats is not due to chance.
Successfull applicants simple dont post here as a rule, and like I tell the folks on my department, its preferable to take advice from those with balance. This is not to say that no one has been cheated out of a viable career shot by the polygraph, indeed some of them post here, but I believe they are the exceptions and I will rely on my own experience, not the assertions that are so common on these pages. See my previous and believe it.
Applicants have also been cheated by sloppy backgrounds, incorrect urinalysis, false credentials of the competition, nepotism, gut feelings, personal prejudice, the MMPI (a whole topic here to explore) and Al Gore wanting to reinvent government! People may have been arrested by an officer fresh from a Reid and Assoc. class on nonverbal behavior...do I need to go on? See any hard science in the above mentioned?
Life is filled with unfairness. I saw a psychologist fail a gal once because she had been abused as a kid, with the rationale that she would not be able to handle a child abuse investigation! I doubt if there is a website set up to handle applicant abuse of that type, but I am not bored enough to look.
You made a comment about "torque". I feel nothing of the sort, as my livlihood in no way depends on the polygraph. If it disappeared tomorrow, I would barely notice as I have a traditional case load. My comments are based on long experience, close observation, and a general lack of hysteria on my part. I came to this site originally when my then Sheriff wanted me to make recommendations to him about availability of technology to support criminal investigations.
The reason I come back periodically is unknown and not rational. But then, I have been known to pet my neighbors 3 legged dog, and give money to crack whores pretending to need a bus ticket!