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Posted by FBI-Reject
- Apr 03, 2006, 08:33 PMLet me clarify -- I did not fail the polygraph. It was inconclusive. I was ruled "unsuitable" for the FBI. My understanding is that suitibility varies from agency to agency.
In my opinion this is a matter of semantics, but I appealed the decision and received a letter from the FBI adjudication office specifically stating that I was not denied a clearance. I guess being "unsuitable" does not equal "denied" though it leads to the same result for that agency.
As for my current agency -- I told one person right after this happened. He did not escalate the matter and he said not to worry about what happened with the FBI. However, I have not been called back for a follow-up polygraph with my current agency, so I don't know what would happen when I am.
On a related note, I did not want leave my employability to chance, so I enrolled in graduate school and will soon earn my MBA. I will most likely leave the government for the private sector, as long as this bank offer comes through. I am tired have having to wonder what will happen with my current clearances and dealing with the games in general. That said, I have no issues with my current agency, with how I have been treated there, or my work there in general.
In my opinion this is a matter of semantics, but I appealed the decision and received a letter from the FBI adjudication office specifically stating that I was not denied a clearance. I guess being "unsuitable" does not equal "denied" though it leads to the same result for that agency.
As for my current agency -- I told one person right after this happened. He did not escalate the matter and he said not to worry about what happened with the FBI. However, I have not been called back for a follow-up polygraph with my current agency, so I don't know what would happen when I am.
On a related note, I did not want leave my employability to chance, so I enrolled in graduate school and will soon earn my MBA. I will most likely leave the government for the private sector, as long as this bank offer comes through. I am tired have having to wonder what will happen with my current clearances and dealing with the games in general. That said, I have no issues with my current agency, with how I have been treated there, or my work there in general.
Posted by John_Doe_Forever
- Apr 03, 2006, 07:11 PMFBI-Reject,
You said you failed the poly but still hold a clearance with another agency. My question is: If you hold a current clearance with DoD, and then fail a poly from one of the intel agencies (say, on a job interview), can they revoke your DoD clearance as well?
Anyone know?
You said you failed the poly but still hold a clearance with another agency. My question is: If you hold a current clearance with DoD, and then fail a poly from one of the intel agencies (say, on a job interview), can they revoke your DoD clearance as well?
Anyone know?
Posted by FBI-Reject
- Mar 29, 2006, 05:48 PMI should also say that I wrote a formal letter of protest and was called in for a second polygraph about 6 weeks later. During that polygraph, I told the examiner absolutely everything up front. I probably spent too much time disclosing absolutely everything, but I was not going to have the same situation happen again. I think he was irritated at how much I disclosed, but he was much more pleasant to deal with.
After it was done, he said that he did not see anything that would hold me back, but it would be reviewed. I left feeling like a huge weight was off my shoulders. However, about a month later I received the "unsuitable" letter, which was really quite a devastating blow.
The absolutely sleeziest part about the second polygraph was that the examiner then wrote in his report that I was "not a suitable polygraph candidate." This was despite his verbal assertion that he did not see anything that would hold me back. I mean let me get this straight, he can outright lie to candidates when its convenient for him, but yet he expects absolute honesty so he can verify veracity?
In both cases -- the first confrontational polygraph where I was accused of behavioral countermeasures, and the second, the results were listed as inconclusive.
After it was done, he said that he did not see anything that would hold me back, but it would be reviewed. I left feeling like a huge weight was off my shoulders. However, about a month later I received the "unsuitable" letter, which was really quite a devastating blow.
The absolutely sleeziest part about the second polygraph was that the examiner then wrote in his report that I was "not a suitable polygraph candidate." This was despite his verbal assertion that he did not see anything that would hold me back. I mean let me get this straight, he can outright lie to candidates when its convenient for him, but yet he expects absolute honesty so he can verify veracity?
In both cases -- the first confrontational polygraph where I was accused of behavioral countermeasures, and the second, the results were listed as inconclusive.
Posted by FBI-Reject
- Mar 29, 2006, 05:31 PMYes -- I got a copy of my report from the FOIA and he wrote behavioral countermeasures were suspected.
In the interest of full disclosure, let me provide all the details of what happened during the test. I must say that I am current government employee with a security clearance. I had passed a polygraph with another agency 4 years earlier, with no problem whatsoever. Thus, I had no reason to research countermeasures, but I had gained a healthy fear of the polygraph because of stories passed around among various employees with whom I worked.
I believe he accused me of using behavioral countermeasures because I had jotted down some of the minor things I wanted to talk about before the test. However, when I got to the test, he told me that it was going to ask very direct, specific questions and he only wanted to know information that pertained directly to those questions. He specifically said the test would be much shorter and more focused than my previous test with my other agency.
Because of his explanation, I didn't bring the things on that list up. However, when I felt myself being more and more anxious and having minor things come to my mind, I felt like I better bring up everything I could possibly think of up. He said, and I remember exactly, "your dying a death by a thousand cuts here." So I told him I had written down a few things that I want to clear my conscience of.
These were generally minor concerns like skipping out of work 5 minutes early or coming back from lunch 10 minutes late. The biggest concern that I had was that I had downloaded some music during the Napster days, but I had since deleted the files from my computer.
The agent literally went biserk and unhooked me from the machine, and began writing a statement for me to sign. It was written in the first person (as if I wrote it) and basically I would have signed a statement saying that I had hidden these things from the examiner because I feared repercussions.
I refused to sign it because that was not my intent at all -- I was simply following his instructions to answer his specific, focused questions and not worry about minutia.
After several minutes of back and forth, it became clear that there was no way he was going to continue the test, much to my shock. I had only been hooked up and gone through a few rounds of questions when the whole thing blew up. I finally wrote down my own version of what happened (similar to this post), got up and walked out.
Was I wrong not to talk about everything in the pretest interview? Absolutely. Did I do it because I wanted to hide something and cheat the system? No. I was simply naive about what the polygraph would be like.
I can scan you a copy of his report, but I want to redact my name from the documents, because I am currently employeed with another agency and I fear repercussions.
Honestly, I have read posts here for some time, but have not posted my story or opinions because of my current security clearance situation. However, because of my intense distaste for polygraphs after my FBI experience, and the fact that I have no idea what will happen with my current agency once I am called for a polygraph there, I have decided to search for private opportunities. If this private sector opportunity works out, then I won't worry about publically disclosing my information.
In the interest of full disclosure, let me provide all the details of what happened during the test. I must say that I am current government employee with a security clearance. I had passed a polygraph with another agency 4 years earlier, with no problem whatsoever. Thus, I had no reason to research countermeasures, but I had gained a healthy fear of the polygraph because of stories passed around among various employees with whom I worked.
I believe he accused me of using behavioral countermeasures because I had jotted down some of the minor things I wanted to talk about before the test. However, when I got to the test, he told me that it was going to ask very direct, specific questions and he only wanted to know information that pertained directly to those questions. He specifically said the test would be much shorter and more focused than my previous test with my other agency.
Because of his explanation, I didn't bring the things on that list up. However, when I felt myself being more and more anxious and having minor things come to my mind, I felt like I better bring up everything I could possibly think of up. He said, and I remember exactly, "your dying a death by a thousand cuts here." So I told him I had written down a few things that I want to clear my conscience of.
These were generally minor concerns like skipping out of work 5 minutes early or coming back from lunch 10 minutes late. The biggest concern that I had was that I had downloaded some music during the Napster days, but I had since deleted the files from my computer.
The agent literally went biserk and unhooked me from the machine, and began writing a statement for me to sign. It was written in the first person (as if I wrote it) and basically I would have signed a statement saying that I had hidden these things from the examiner because I feared repercussions.
I refused to sign it because that was not my intent at all -- I was simply following his instructions to answer his specific, focused questions and not worry about minutia.
After several minutes of back and forth, it became clear that there was no way he was going to continue the test, much to my shock. I had only been hooked up and gone through a few rounds of questions when the whole thing blew up. I finally wrote down my own version of what happened (similar to this post), got up and walked out.
Was I wrong not to talk about everything in the pretest interview? Absolutely. Did I do it because I wanted to hide something and cheat the system? No. I was simply naive about what the polygraph would be like.
I can scan you a copy of his report, but I want to redact my name from the documents, because I am currently employeed with another agency and I fear repercussions.
Honestly, I have read posts here for some time, but have not posted my story or opinions because of my current security clearance situation. However, because of my intense distaste for polygraphs after my FBI experience, and the fact that I have no idea what will happen with my current agency once I am called for a polygraph there, I have decided to search for private opportunities. If this private sector opportunity works out, then I won't worry about publically disclosing my information.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Mar 29, 2006, 03:57 PMFBI-Reject,
Yours is actually the first case that I've heard of wherein a person has been suspected of employing behavioral countermeasures. Did your polygrapher actually write that in his report? If so, might you be willing to e-mail me a scanned image of the report?
Yours is actually the first case that I've heard of wherein a person has been suspected of employing behavioral countermeasures. Did your polygrapher actually write that in his report? If so, might you be willing to e-mail me a scanned image of the report?
Posted by FBI-Reject
- Mar 29, 2006, 03:30 PMWhat? If those are really factors for "passing" a polygraph, the system really is quackery.
I have a conservative hair cut and dress conservatively. So does that mean because I'm myself I'm committing countermeasures? I guess the agents should instruct all people to dress like slobs, not shave for a week, and look at the floor and mumble when lying.
I have a conservative hair cut and dress conservatively. So does that mean because I'm myself I'm committing countermeasures? I guess the agents should instruct all people to dress like slobs, not shave for a week, and look at the floor and mumble when lying.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Mar 29, 2006, 03:25 PMQuote from: Mr. Mystery on Mar 29, 2006, 03:16 PM
Please forgive my lack of clarity. Are we talking physical or mental countermeasures?
Neither. Behavioral countermeasures include things such as having a conservative haircut and attire, maintaining appropriate eye contact, avoiding body language that interrogators believe to be indicative of deception, and so forth.
Posted by Mr. Mystery
- Mar 29, 2006, 03:16 PMQuote from: George W. Maschke on Mar 29, 2006, 03:13 PM
There is a section on behavioral countermeasures in Chapter 4 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector. They're basically techniques for "appearing" truthful, as opposed to manipulating the polygraph chart tracings.
Please forgive my lack of clarity. Are we talking physical or mental countermeasures?
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Mar 29, 2006, 03:13 PMQuote from: Mr. Mystery on Mar 29, 2006, 03:06 PM
Can any chime in on what a "behavioral countermeasure" is?
There is a section on behavioral countermeasures in Chapter 4 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector. They're basically techniques for "appearing" truthful, as opposed to manipulating the polygraph chart tracings.
Posted by Mr. Mystery
- Mar 29, 2006, 03:06 PMQuote from: FBI-Reject on Mar 29, 2006, 02:31 PM
One clarification, the result came back inconclusive, though the examiner wrote that he suspected behavioral countermeasures.
People like Freaked Out really detract from those with legitimate false positive grievances. I suppose by questioning the veracity of his posts I have now made myself a target. I'd better get out the tin foil hat to ward off mind control lasers.
Can anyone explain what "behavioral countermeasures" are?
Posted by Sergeant1107
- Mar 29, 2006, 02:41 PMFBI-Reject,
I wouldn't put too much faith in what "freaked-out" has posted.
Do you really think that anyone "caught" using CM's is subject to illegal wiretaps and clandestine surveillance for the rest of their life?
It would probably be best to have some boots handy to wade through his future posts.
I wouldn't put too much faith in what "freaked-out" has posted.
Do you really think that anyone "caught" using CM's is subject to illegal wiretaps and clandestine surveillance for the rest of their life?
It would probably be best to have some boots handy to wade through his future posts.
Posted by FBI-Reject
- Mar 29, 2006, 02:31 PMWell I hope our government isn't as orwellian as described. I have a hard time believing that on the basis of one accusation, that was spurrious and unproven, I could be barred for life from so many jobs.
One clarification, the result came back inconclusive, though the examiner wrote that he suspected behavioral countermeasures. I was called in for a second test. That was also inconclusive, though without the unpleasantries of the first test. That was when I got the "unsuitable" letter.
I naively entered the test believing it was infallible. I had never researched polygraphs and/or countermeasures. So how I could be accused of such was beyond me. My only explanation is that I feel "guilt" easily, and the more the interrogator probed the more inconsequential things came to my mind that I felt I should bring up. The polygrapher said that none of those things would have kept me from FBI employment but my "lack of candor" was disturbing.
I guess I shall see what happens after they pull my FBI records. I will post the results.
If it is indeed the case that I am barred from such employment for life, because of one polygrapher's rash, rude, and rushed judgement, I will do all in my power to fight such a corrupt system. That is just wrong to hurt permanently hurt innocent and good people like that.
One clarification, the result came back inconclusive, though the examiner wrote that he suspected behavioral countermeasures. I was called in for a second test. That was also inconclusive, though without the unpleasantries of the first test. That was when I got the "unsuitable" letter.
I naively entered the test believing it was infallible. I had never researched polygraphs and/or countermeasures. So how I could be accused of such was beyond me. My only explanation is that I feel "guilt" easily, and the more the interrogator probed the more inconsequential things came to my mind that I felt I should bring up. The polygrapher said that none of those things would have kept me from FBI employment but my "lack of candor" was disturbing.
I guess I shall see what happens after they pull my FBI records. I will post the results.
If it is indeed the case that I am barred from such employment for life, because of one polygrapher's rash, rude, and rushed judgement, I will do all in my power to fight such a corrupt system. That is just wrong to hurt permanently hurt innocent and good people like that.
Posted by NSAreject
- Mar 29, 2006, 01:57 PM freaked-out,
I thought there was a difference, between being
accused, and being "caught". Are you one who forgot
to, slip on your Nikes, and hitch a ride on the comet ?
I thought there was a difference, between being
accused, and being "caught". Are you one who forgot
to, slip on your Nikes, and hitch a ride on the comet ?
Posted by freaked-out
- Mar 29, 2006, 01:29 PMFBI-reject
Once you have been caught using countermeasures on an FBI applicant polygraph examination, your SSAN is "flagged" and you are denied access to sensitive government information or employment by any federally insured financial institution. This basically means that you cannot work for the federal government, a U.S. bank, or about 75% of jobs in the financial industry. But the more important consequence is that your telephone conversations and movements are being monitored and documented to ensure that you never have incidental access to such information. There is actually more to it than just that, but I don't want to make you paranoid.
Once you have been caught using countermeasures on an FBI applicant polygraph examination, your SSAN is "flagged" and you are denied access to sensitive government information or employment by any federally insured financial institution. This basically means that you cannot work for the federal government, a U.S. bank, or about 75% of jobs in the financial industry. But the more important consequence is that your telephone conversations and movements are being monitored and documented to ensure that you never have incidental access to such information. There is actually more to it than just that, but I don't want to make you paranoid.
Posted by FBI-Reject
- Mar 28, 2006, 08:58 PMI'm not sure if this is the right place to post this, but about 2 years ago, I was falsely accused of using countermeasures on my FBI polygraph. The results came back inconclusive, but nonetheless the FBI rescinded my COE on grounds that I was "unsuitable".
I can honestly say it was about the most traumatic experience of my life. To this day my blood boils whenever I think about what they put me through.
But that is behind me. Now I have been offered a position with a major financial institution. As part of the hiring process I will be fingerprinted and my FBI file will be checked.
I have absolutely no criminal record. In fact this particular bank's gain is the FBI's loss. However, I wonder if my polygraph results and "unsuitable" ruling will show up on this record check. It shouldn't matter for a civilian job like this, but I'd really rather not even have to explain anything. Anyone know?
I can honestly say it was about the most traumatic experience of my life. To this day my blood boils whenever I think about what they put me through.
But that is behind me. Now I have been offered a position with a major financial institution. As part of the hiring process I will be fingerprinted and my FBI file will be checked.
I have absolutely no criminal record. In fact this particular bank's gain is the FBI's loss. However, I wonder if my polygraph results and "unsuitable" ruling will show up on this record check. It shouldn't matter for a civilian job like this, but I'd really rather not even have to explain anything. Anyone know?