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A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by DNgoo
- Apr 17, 2002, 05:17 AMI'm sad for all the poor souls eg xpmachina who is seeking for info about poly on this site and the ignorants like Gino trying to play the wise guy. Gino's description about poly test shows that he's in the 1920s. God Bless xpmachina. Whatz his problem?
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?Posted by xpmachina
- Feb 27, 2002, 03:40 AMThank you George,
I have talked with some local lawyers, and the lawyers in Taiwan are not familiar with poly test knowledge. They don't know what control question is, they don't know revelant question either. I think before I submit the poly test, I shall follow your advices.
Since I am facing a probable-lie control questions, I think I have to do what you have always emphasized -- "Producing stronger responds on control questions than revelant questions", and I am still practicing the countermeasures of breathing and anal pucker. I still have one week to practice, wish me luck.
Please give me more advices, thank you everyone.
I have talked with some local lawyers, and the lawyers in Taiwan are not familiar with poly test knowledge. They don't know what control question is, they don't know revelant question either. I think before I submit the poly test, I shall follow your advices.
Since I am facing a probable-lie control questions, I think I have to do what you have always emphasized -- "Producing stronger responds on control questions than revelant questions", and I am still practicing the countermeasures of breathing and anal pucker. I still have one week to practice, wish me luck.
Please give me more advices, thank you everyone.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Feb 26, 2002, 09:10 PMxpmachina,
The polygraph instrument in the illustration appears to be a Stoelting computerized model. One of Stoelting's marketing gimmicks is a computerized chart scoring algorithm it has developed with polygraph data from the United States Secret Service. I doubt that any such scoring algorithm was developed based on the R/I technique.
I don't know if Taiwan's police force is exclusively using computerized Stoelting polygraph instruments, but if you see such a polygraph instrument, then I would not be surprised if you encounter a standard probable-lie "control" question "test" instead of a R/I "test," notwithstanding what the lawyers you consulted told you.
Note also that a Stoelting polygraph instrument may optionally have an "activity sensor" attached to it. This sensor is a strain guage that is placed underneath the front legs of the chair, and it could detect the shift in weight distribution that would accompany use the tack-in-the-shoe countermeasure:
The polygraph instrument in the illustration appears to be a Stoelting computerized model. One of Stoelting's marketing gimmicks is a computerized chart scoring algorithm it has developed with polygraph data from the United States Secret Service. I doubt that any such scoring algorithm was developed based on the R/I technique.
I don't know if Taiwan's police force is exclusively using computerized Stoelting polygraph instruments, but if you see such a polygraph instrument, then I would not be surprised if you encounter a standard probable-lie "control" question "test" instead of a R/I "test," notwithstanding what the lawyers you consulted told you.
Note also that a Stoelting polygraph instrument may optionally have an "activity sensor" attached to it. This sensor is a strain guage that is placed underneath the front legs of the chair, and it could detect the shift in weight distribution that would accompany use the tack-in-the-shoe countermeasure:
Posted by xpmachina
- Feb 26, 2002, 01:12 PMDear All,
Let me explain my situation before we have further discussion. I am in an Asian country(it's Taiwan) and I am facing a criminal case. In this country, poly test is very popular in investgating. My lawyer called it "the laziest way to get the truth". So even if i had not promised the DA to submit a poly test, I would still have to go throught it. So it's not I want to do this, I have to.
Till now, I have not been accused of any crimes, we are still in the investgating stage. And I will face my poly test next Monday as you've already known. You can see the picture of poly test in Taiwan at http://www.cib.gov.tw/cib40000/41160.asp
The descripitons of the picture are talking about the procedures of the poly test. There are
1. Using the materials they have collected from anything they have, like police reports, suspect's confession, spot exmaminations, witness reports, autopsy reports etc..
2. Before the poly test, there will be a pre-test interrogation.
3. From above, they make question sets.
4. Connect you with wires, and start the test. The readings are still blood pressure, pulse, breath and skin electric resistence.
5. Post-test interrogation.
This is the best way I can describe the poly test in Taiwan.
I am still practicing the countermeasures like breathing and anal pucker. I think what George said is right. I have to prevent certain pattern of the readins in regarding to revelant questions. So can anyone can give me more advices upon what I mentioned and the picture?
Thank you very much
Let me explain my situation before we have further discussion. I am in an Asian country(it's Taiwan) and I am facing a criminal case. In this country, poly test is very popular in investgating. My lawyer called it "the laziest way to get the truth". So even if i had not promised the DA to submit a poly test, I would still have to go throught it. So it's not I want to do this, I have to.
Till now, I have not been accused of any crimes, we are still in the investgating stage. And I will face my poly test next Monday as you've already known. You can see the picture of poly test in Taiwan at http://www.cib.gov.tw/cib40000/41160.asp
The descripitons of the picture are talking about the procedures of the poly test. There are
1. Using the materials they have collected from anything they have, like police reports, suspect's confession, spot exmaminations, witness reports, autopsy reports etc..
2. Before the poly test, there will be a pre-test interrogation.
3. From above, they make question sets.
4. Connect you with wires, and start the test. The readings are still blood pressure, pulse, breath and skin electric resistence.
5. Post-test interrogation.
This is the best way I can describe the poly test in Taiwan.
I am still practicing the countermeasures like breathing and anal pucker. I think what George said is right. I have to prevent certain pattern of the readins in regarding to revelant questions. So can anyone can give me more advices upon what I mentioned and the picture?
Thank you very much
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Feb 26, 2002, 06:40 AMQuote3. Strengthen my responds when I am asked for the irrelevant questions.
This could be useful if your polygrapher compares responses to relevant versus irrelevant questions in reaching his decision on whether you pass or fail. However, in the descriptions of the R/I technique that I've read, the irrelevant questions are not scored. Nonetheless, it is plausible that a polygrapher might (consciously or unconsciously) take into account the size of any reaction to an irrelevant question in determining how signficant a reaction to a relevant question is. If such were the case, then creating a response to an irrelevant question could be helpful in passing the "test."
Posted by xpmachina
- Feb 26, 2002, 05:38 AMI just give my best appreciation to anyone who helps me.
I have discussed with my lawyer about the "complete honesty" policy, and he said even if I tell the polygrapher I know all the tricks, he will absolutely connect me with the wires and put me on the test. The polygrapher will say "Let's see how much you know about the tricks and how they're gonna work". Because the poly test will be performed by police not DA, so the charts readings are very important to me.
I will follow the rules from "The Lie Behind Lie Detector", here is what I am gonna do.
1. Make NO admissions for any question.
2. Use countermeasures when I go through the "stim test", to make the polygrapher believe that I am a "screamer".
3. Strengthen my responds when I am asked for the irrelevant questions.
Is that the best way to do to beat the poly test? My lawyer told me that if I pass the poly test, I shall not be charged. So I must pass it, please help me.
Thank you very much
I have discussed with my lawyer about the "complete honesty" policy, and he said even if I tell the polygrapher I know all the tricks, he will absolutely connect me with the wires and put me on the test. The polygrapher will say "Let's see how much you know about the tricks and how they're gonna work". Because the poly test will be performed by police not DA, so the charts readings are very important to me.
I will follow the rules from "The Lie Behind Lie Detector", here is what I am gonna do.
1. Make NO admissions for any question.
2. Use countermeasures when I go through the "stim test", to make the polygrapher believe that I am a "screamer".
3. Strengthen my responds when I am asked for the irrelevant questions.
Is that the best way to do to beat the poly test? My lawyer told me that if I pass the poly test, I shall not be charged. So I must pass it, please help me.
Thank you very much
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Feb 26, 2002, 03:44 AMxpmachina,
The "complete honesty" approach simply means letting the authorities know that you fully understand that polygraph "testing" is a fraud and that the whole exercise is pointless from the beginning. There may be some legal advantage to doing this (with your lawyer there as a witness).
If the police really believe that you are guilty or otherwise involved, then you run a risk of "failing" the "test" no matter what the polygraph charts look like.
Because of variations in the Relevant/Irrlevant technique (and I am still skeptical as to whether this is indeed the technique that you will encounter), and my lack of familiarity with polygraph techniques as practiced in your country, I really don't feel confident in advising you in this regard.
One factor that seems to be fairly constant in the Relevant/Irrelevant technique as practiced in the United States is that the polygrapher looks for a "consistent, specific, and significant" reaction to a relevant question, no matter how the question is worded and no matter in what order the question is asked. As I mentioned above, such a pattern can be avoided by augmenting one's reactions to a different relevant question during each polygraph chart (which will probably consist of about 10 questions, but could conceivably go on for 15, 25, or even 40 -- even though to my knowledge no polygraph school in the U.S. officially endorses the use of such long question series).
Sometimes, a form of "control" question is asked during a R/I "test." For example, the Keeler Polygraph Institute in Chicago teaches that the "test" should begin with an announcement like, "The test is about to begin." Although this is a statement, not a question, it serves as a sort of "control question" to the extent that the polygrapher expects he might see a reaction to it. A similar announcement is made at the end, "The test is ended" (or words to that effect). Thus, it might be advantageous to someone facing the Keeler R/I technique to create a reaction to the announcement of the beginning and ending of the "test." If one's reactions to the announcements are greater than one's reactions to any of the relevant questions, the polygrapher may be more inclined to decide that the subject is truthful.
Another technique called the General Question Test once taught by the U.S. Department of Defense Polygraph Institute uses "disguised control" questions. The "test" outwardly appears to consist of only relevant and irrelevant questions, but before any true relevant questions are asked, the polygrapher asks something similar to, "Do you intend to answer all questions truthfully?" and at the end the polygrapher asks "Did you lie to me in any way here today?" Reactions to the relevant questions are compared to reactions to these "disguised control" questions. So here, it would be advantageous to aument one's reactions to the "disguised control" questions.
Another technique that is sometimes used is that if the polygrapher sees no reactions to any relevant or irrelevant questions in a series, he will add a surprise probable-lie "control" question to the end of the series, to see if it produces a reaction. If it does, the polygrapher will be more likely to conclude that the examinee was truthful.
I can't predict what variation of the R/I technique you might encounter, and I wouldn't be surprised if you were to be given a regular probable-lie "control" question "test" or even a Guilty Knowledge Test instead .
Again, however you decide to handle this, I suggest you consult with your lawyer.
The "complete honesty" approach simply means letting the authorities know that you fully understand that polygraph "testing" is a fraud and that the whole exercise is pointless from the beginning. There may be some legal advantage to doing this (with your lawyer there as a witness).
If the police really believe that you are guilty or otherwise involved, then you run a risk of "failing" the "test" no matter what the polygraph charts look like.
Because of variations in the Relevant/Irrlevant technique (and I am still skeptical as to whether this is indeed the technique that you will encounter), and my lack of familiarity with polygraph techniques as practiced in your country, I really don't feel confident in advising you in this regard.
One factor that seems to be fairly constant in the Relevant/Irrelevant technique as practiced in the United States is that the polygrapher looks for a "consistent, specific, and significant" reaction to a relevant question, no matter how the question is worded and no matter in what order the question is asked. As I mentioned above, such a pattern can be avoided by augmenting one's reactions to a different relevant question during each polygraph chart (which will probably consist of about 10 questions, but could conceivably go on for 15, 25, or even 40 -- even though to my knowledge no polygraph school in the U.S. officially endorses the use of such long question series).
Sometimes, a form of "control" question is asked during a R/I "test." For example, the Keeler Polygraph Institute in Chicago teaches that the "test" should begin with an announcement like, "The test is about to begin." Although this is a statement, not a question, it serves as a sort of "control question" to the extent that the polygrapher expects he might see a reaction to it. A similar announcement is made at the end, "The test is ended" (or words to that effect). Thus, it might be advantageous to someone facing the Keeler R/I technique to create a reaction to the announcement of the beginning and ending of the "test." If one's reactions to the announcements are greater than one's reactions to any of the relevant questions, the polygrapher may be more inclined to decide that the subject is truthful.
Another technique called the General Question Test once taught by the U.S. Department of Defense Polygraph Institute uses "disguised control" questions. The "test" outwardly appears to consist of only relevant and irrelevant questions, but before any true relevant questions are asked, the polygrapher asks something similar to, "Do you intend to answer all questions truthfully?" and at the end the polygrapher asks "Did you lie to me in any way here today?" Reactions to the relevant questions are compared to reactions to these "disguised control" questions. So here, it would be advantageous to aument one's reactions to the "disguised control" questions.
Another technique that is sometimes used is that if the polygrapher sees no reactions to any relevant or irrelevant questions in a series, he will add a surprise probable-lie "control" question to the end of the series, to see if it produces a reaction. If it does, the polygrapher will be more likely to conclude that the examinee was truthful.
I can't predict what variation of the R/I technique you might encounter, and I wouldn't be surprised if you were to be given a regular probable-lie "control" question "test" or even a Guilty Knowledge Test instead .
Again, however you decide to handle this, I suggest you consult with your lawyer.
Posted by G Scalabr
- Feb 26, 2002, 01:35 AMQuoteAfter discussing with my lawyer, he told me that the poly in this country is not so advanced, then if I can let myself as relaxed as possible, I might pass.
The polygraph isn't very advanced in any country. Despite the addition of computers (which only serve to increase the intimidation factor), all polygraphy still operates upon the same set of flawed assumptions from the 1920s.
Posted by xpmachina
- Feb 25, 2002, 11:49 PMDear Geroge,
Thank you for your advice. After discussing with my laywer, he told me that the poly in this country is not so advanced, then if I can let myself as relaxed as possible, I might pass. But the reason why I can't use complete honesty policy is that I really don't know anything about that crimial case, but the policemen have assumed that I know everything!!!!! That's why they tried to set me up.
Still I want to use the countermeasures just because I am very easy to get nervous. After reading "The Lie Behind Lie Detector", I think I can tell relevant and irrelevant questions.
But what I want to know is that in revelant/irrevelant question test, what question should I strengthen my responds? Because they still judge you by the chart readings, in addtion to behavioral countermeasures, what kind of readings should I produce to polygrapher?
Thank you very much
Thank you for your advice. After discussing with my laywer, he told me that the poly in this country is not so advanced, then if I can let myself as relaxed as possible, I might pass. But the reason why I can't use complete honesty policy is that I really don't know anything about that crimial case, but the policemen have assumed that I know everything!!!!! That's why they tried to set me up.
Still I want to use the countermeasures just because I am very easy to get nervous. After reading "The Lie Behind Lie Detector", I think I can tell relevant and irrelevant questions.
But what I want to know is that in revelant/irrevelant question test, what question should I strengthen my responds? Because they still judge you by the chart readings, in addtion to behavioral countermeasures, what kind of readings should I produce to polygrapher?
Thank you very much
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Feb 25, 2002, 05:36 PMxpmachina,
I don't know the answer to your question about question order.
After thinking more about your situation, I believe that if I were in your place, I would not worry about the polygraph charts at all. The whole purpose of the "test" will be an attempt to get a confession from you. Unless polygraph "evidence" is admissible in court in your country (not likely, but check with your lawyer), then it really doesn't matter what your polygrapher may think he sees in the polygraph charts.
The behavioral countermeasures discussed in The Lie Behind the Lie Detector may be helpful, but you might also try the "complete honesty" approach described in Chapter 4. Whatever you decide, I suggest that you discuss it with your lawyer beforehand.
I don't know the answer to your question about question order.
After thinking more about your situation, I believe that if I were in your place, I would not worry about the polygraph charts at all. The whole purpose of the "test" will be an attempt to get a confession from you. Unless polygraph "evidence" is admissible in court in your country (not likely, but check with your lawyer), then it really doesn't matter what your polygrapher may think he sees in the polygraph charts.
The behavioral countermeasures discussed in The Lie Behind the Lie Detector may be helpful, but you might also try the "complete honesty" approach described in Chapter 4. Whatever you decide, I suggest that you discuss it with your lawyer beforehand.
Posted by xpmachina
- Feb 25, 2002, 08:09 AMDear Geroge,
Thank you for your advices. And I am still practicing the countermeasures. But I still have some questions about the Relevant/Irrelevant Question.
1. What is the pattern of revelant/irrevelant question set? Is there any control question?
2. Since I have to strengthen my responds, what is the the timing I should use? You have mentioned that I have to produce differnet readings when in the different series of revelant quetions, but I still can't get it. I mean, the only thing he knows my reponds of cheating is stim test, so I just act normal for every question?
3. I have already asked my lawyer to be with me next Monday, and he will be there with me of course. Thank you for your advice.
I am still a little nervous, and I will try to practice my breathing and anal pucker. Also I will think of things that might make me scared. Also I have some wounds in my feet, I will put tacs slightly on the wounds, and try to touch the wounds when i apply countermeasures, Can that enhance my responds to the polygraph?
Thank you very very much for those who help me alot in the website.
Thank you for your advices. And I am still practicing the countermeasures. But I still have some questions about the Relevant/Irrelevant Question.
1. What is the pattern of revelant/irrevelant question set? Is there any control question?
2. Since I have to strengthen my responds, what is the the timing I should use? You have mentioned that I have to produce differnet readings when in the different series of revelant quetions, but I still can't get it. I mean, the only thing he knows my reponds of cheating is stim test, so I just act normal for every question?
3. I have already asked my lawyer to be with me next Monday, and he will be there with me of course. Thank you for your advice.
I am still a little nervous, and I will try to practice my breathing and anal pucker. Also I will think of things that might make me scared. Also I have some wounds in my feet, I will put tacs slightly on the wounds, and try to touch the wounds when i apply countermeasures, Can that enhance my responds to the polygraph?
Thank you very very much for those who help me alot in the website.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Feb 25, 2002, 07:35 AMxpmachina,
I'm a little confused when you say the polygrapher will ask your name, age, and so on and record the responses. Perhaps you meant he will ask irrelevant questions about these? For example:
Is your name xpmachina?
Are you X years old?
If that is the case, then you may be facing a Relevant/Irrelevant "test" rather than the Guilty Knowledge Test. The next edition of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector will include a new sub-section countermeasures for the Relevant/Irrelevant "test," but let me give you the gist of it now.
First, remember at all times that the "test" is an interrogation in disguise, and you are suspected of a crime. The polygrapher is not your friend. He's not there to help you. As they say in America, "anything you say can and will be used against you." If you can do so, I strongly suggest that you have a lawyer with you when you report for your polygraph interrogation.
Second, during the "stim test," you want to produce a large reaction when you say "no" regarding the card that you actually picked. This will make the polygrapher expect to see a large reaction if you lie to a relevant question.
Second, because in the Relevant/Irrelevant technique the polygrapher uses his subjective impression of your honesty in deciding whether you pass or fail, the behavioral countermeasures described in Chapter 4 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector will be of increased importance. It is crucial that you appear honest.
Third, because in the Relevant/Irrelevant technique irrelevant questions are not scored and the polygrapher looks for a consistent, specific, and significant reaction to a relevant question, no matter how the question is worded and no matter what order the question is asked in, you can prevent such a pattern from occurring by artificially creating a reaction to a different relevant question during each question series (that is, each different polygraph chart). However, because of the very high false positive rate that would normally be expected with the Relevant/Irrelevant technique, the behavioral countermeasures described above and your lack of admissions may be enough to get you through the "test."
Fourth, if your polygrapher accuses you of deception, remember that the "test" has no scientific basis whatsoever and don't allow yourself to be lured into a post-test interrogation. Terminate the interrogation and leave.
I'm a little confused when you say the polygrapher will ask your name, age, and so on and record the responses. Perhaps you meant he will ask irrelevant questions about these? For example:
Is your name xpmachina?
Are you X years old?
If that is the case, then you may be facing a Relevant/Irrelevant "test" rather than the Guilty Knowledge Test. The next edition of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector will include a new sub-section countermeasures for the Relevant/Irrelevant "test," but let me give you the gist of it now.
First, remember at all times that the "test" is an interrogation in disguise, and you are suspected of a crime. The polygrapher is not your friend. He's not there to help you. As they say in America, "anything you say can and will be used against you." If you can do so, I strongly suggest that you have a lawyer with you when you report for your polygraph interrogation.
Second, during the "stim test," you want to produce a large reaction when you say "no" regarding the card that you actually picked. This will make the polygrapher expect to see a large reaction if you lie to a relevant question.
Second, because in the Relevant/Irrelevant technique the polygrapher uses his subjective impression of your honesty in deciding whether you pass or fail, the behavioral countermeasures described in Chapter 4 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector will be of increased importance. It is crucial that you appear honest.
Third, because in the Relevant/Irrelevant technique irrelevant questions are not scored and the polygrapher looks for a consistent, specific, and significant reaction to a relevant question, no matter how the question is worded and no matter what order the question is asked in, you can prevent such a pattern from occurring by artificially creating a reaction to a different relevant question during each question series (that is, each different polygraph chart). However, because of the very high false positive rate that would normally be expected with the Relevant/Irrelevant technique, the behavioral countermeasures described above and your lack of admissions may be enough to get you through the "test."
Fourth, if your polygrapher accuses you of deception, remember that the "test" has no scientific basis whatsoever and don't allow yourself to be lured into a post-test interrogation. Terminate the interrogation and leave.
Posted by xpmachina
- Feb 25, 2002, 06:40 AMDear All,
Thank you for your advices. After discussing with serveral local lawyers, the result is that I still have to go to submit a poly test. It's because the law of the country. Now my poly test will be held next monday, and I have read "The Lie Behind the Lie Detector". Here is what the lawers have told me about the poly test here.
1, The stim test
The polygrapher shows you 5 cards with 1 to 5 on the cards. Then you pick one card, and show the card to him. After that, he will show you the cards from 1 to 5, and ask "Did you pick a #"? And you will be forced to say "no" for every card. Then he will record the reponds from you for the card you have just picked.
2, Poly Test
The polygrapher will ask your name, age and so on, and record the responds, then he will start to ask you REVELANT QUESTIONS. There will be NO CONTROL QUESTIONS!!!!! So what countermeasures should I use to pass the poly test?
Actually, I have ordered an basic polygraph machine(electrical devcie) to practice, and I know what they will ask me, but I still feel nervous about the test. What should I do? Can I still use the anal pucker or breathing countermeasures?
Thank you all guys
Thank you for your advices. After discussing with serveral local lawyers, the result is that I still have to go to submit a poly test. It's because the law of the country. Now my poly test will be held next monday, and I have read "The Lie Behind the Lie Detector". Here is what the lawers have told me about the poly test here.
1, The stim test
The polygrapher shows you 5 cards with 1 to 5 on the cards. Then you pick one card, and show the card to him. After that, he will show you the cards from 1 to 5, and ask "Did you pick a #"? And you will be forced to say "no" for every card. Then he will record the reponds from you for the card you have just picked.
2, Poly Test
The polygrapher will ask your name, age and so on, and record the responds, then he will start to ask you REVELANT QUESTIONS. There will be NO CONTROL QUESTIONS!!!!! So what countermeasures should I use to pass the poly test?
Actually, I have ordered an basic polygraph machine(electrical devcie) to practice, and I know what they will ask me, but I still feel nervous about the test. What should I do? Can I still use the anal pucker or breathing countermeasures?
Thank you all guys
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Feb 24, 2002, 05:53 AMxpmachina,
I think Pantywaife's suggestion that you simply tell the DA that your lawyer has advised you not to submit to a polygraph "test" is better than my suggestion that you explain to the DA that you've learned that the "test" is a fraud. You shouldn't have to explain at any length your decision to refuse the polygraph, and the short explanation that you've refused it on the advice of your lawyer should be adequate.
By the way, if your lawyer suggests that you should take a polygraph "test," you should fire him and get a smarter lawyer.
I think Pantywaife's suggestion that you simply tell the DA that your lawyer has advised you not to submit to a polygraph "test" is better than my suggestion that you explain to the DA that you've learned that the "test" is a fraud. You shouldn't have to explain at any length your decision to refuse the polygraph, and the short explanation that you've refused it on the advice of your lawyer should be adequate.
By the way, if your lawyer suggests that you should take a polygraph "test," you should fire him and get a smarter lawyer.
Posted by xpmachina
- Feb 24, 2002, 05:40 AMThank you for your advices.
I will get a lawyer Monday, and follow your advices.
I will get a lawyer Monday, and follow your advices.