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A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by EosJupiter
- Mar 08, 2006, 11:26 PMQuote from: NSAreject on Mar 08, 2006, 01:11 PM
Well, the SSO said, that if he/she gave advice on how
to beat the polygraph, that he/she could lose his/her
clearance, also. I am just repeating what I heard,
and I have heard it over and over again from SSOs.
I wonder, if they really believe this lie, or, if they are
running as scared, as the rest of us ? The whole deal
is one big lie. Having the polygraph definately helps
with job security, but at what personal expense. One
has to make a decision, whether it is worth being
consumed, by such a dysfunctional environment...
NSAReject,
I know for a fact that quite a few of the military folks at NSA know about this webSite and have used it on numerous occasions. Much to the shagrin of the vaunted NSA polygraph unit. I think that the SSO is basically a lame duck in this, as your not going to gut your personnel because of research. They can threaten all they want. but try telling the enlisted folks not to do something. Thats like opening the door and say come on in. I do believe the threats to be hollow at best. Not much he can do to control internet access off of Ft. Meade anyways. Just like in high school with class ditch day, everyone knew that you could get suspended, but no one did, because you can't expel a whole class. It should be interesting to watch this play out. Thanks for the update.
UCMJ Analysis:
First an article 32 investigation, highly doubt it would go beyond this. As nothing about researching polygraphy or forming an opinion is illegal. But if it did then they could try and prosecute under 2 possible articles in my analysis, there could be a couple of other ones, but these two seem the most likely candidates:
Article 107, UCMJ
FALSE STATEMENTS
Any person subject to this chapter who, with intent to deceive, signs any false record, return, regulation, order, or other official document, knowing it to be false, or makes any other false official statement knowing it to be false, shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
If the individual is honest and states he researched polygraphy that will nullify this one.
Then there is the catch all:
Article 134, UCMJ
GENERAL ARTICLE
Though not specifically mentioned in this chapter, all disorders and neglects to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces, all conduct of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces, and crimes and offenses not capital, of which persons subject to this chapter may be guilty, shall be taken cognizance of by a general, special or summary court-martial, according to the nature and degree of the offense, and shall be punished at the discretion of that court.
This one would not be as hard to try and use it against a small number of folks. But experience tells me that trying to link this article to research of polygraphy on the internet would be quite a stretch. As long as the person is not trying to subvert the polygraph exam process. Its not against the law to research polygraphy, and its not against the law to not believe in the polygraph. Curiosity is not punishable, as long as its done without intent to circumvent the existing processes. Which boils down to them proving intent to do just this. Very hard case to prove. And this would definately make news media if its a large enough number of folks. And if I was going to defend on this one, I would use the media and definately let this one out to the public view. In the middle of a conflict its very bad form to try and do in your folks in uniform. They might try article 15's too, but if the person is smart they will not sign it and take it to a Court Marshall. But this is just my analysis and opinion, of course.
Regards !!
Posted by NSAreject
- Mar 08, 2006, 02:45 PMJoker,
Sorry, an SSO is an acronym for Special, or Staff,
Security Officer. Typically, they are ex-NSA, or
any Intel agency, security officers. They typically
deal with SCI (sensitive compartmented information),
versus, vanilla security officers, who would deal with,
say, DoD TS/Secret/Confidential information. The SSOs
perpetuate this frantic paranoid attitude (I had one
at a past contractor, who truely was crazy), and you
know they are always watching/evaluating cleared
personnel...
Sorry, an SSO is an acronym for Special, or Staff,
Security Officer. Typically, they are ex-NSA, or
any Intel agency, security officers. They typically
deal with SCI (sensitive compartmented information),
versus, vanilla security officers, who would deal with,
say, DoD TS/Secret/Confidential information. The SSOs
perpetuate this frantic paranoid attitude (I had one
at a past contractor, who truely was crazy), and you
know they are always watching/evaluating cleared
personnel...
Posted by Twoblock
- Mar 08, 2006, 02:24 PMEosJupitor
Your quote "All that taxpayer money waisted and idle" is right on.
If the ripoff of us taxpayers by defense contractors and polititions in D. C. could be STOPPED, our national debt could be paid off in a couple of years. Look at the contract to Whackenbut's, wichentut's, wackenhut's, whatever, who puts unqualified people in charge of securing or national security's buildings. Did those people beat the poly? If these government entities can't secure their own grounds, how in the hell can they secure our grounds?
Other decisions, that are made in D. C., scares me to death. Like putting the operations of our ports in the hands of foreign countries. Even England shouldn't have gotten the contract much less an Arab country.
Another is the Federal Reserve Bank, which is privately owned (by entities known only to few) telling us how much interest we have to pay for loans.
Others are outsorcing and illegals which is sending U. S. dollars overseas to be devalued. 20 billion annually to Mexico. It's bad when one can't understand a service rep, without sufficient knowledge, who is charged with helping you solve your problems.
Anyone see the correlation here to the goals of the Trilatteral Committee?
Side note. In the near future, watch Iran start selling their oil for Euro instead of the standard U.S. dollar.
Try writing to the politicians about curtailing the government dependency on the polygraph (or any of the above) and see if you get an answer. I haven't yet.
I'm so hot my stump is burning. Gotta stop.
Your quote "All that taxpayer money waisted and idle" is right on.
If the ripoff of us taxpayers by defense contractors and polititions in D. C. could be STOPPED, our national debt could be paid off in a couple of years. Look at the contract to Whackenbut's, wichentut's, wackenhut's, whatever, who puts unqualified people in charge of securing or national security's buildings. Did those people beat the poly? If these government entities can't secure their own grounds, how in the hell can they secure our grounds?
Other decisions, that are made in D. C., scares me to death. Like putting the operations of our ports in the hands of foreign countries. Even England shouldn't have gotten the contract much less an Arab country.
Another is the Federal Reserve Bank, which is privately owned (by entities known only to few) telling us how much interest we have to pay for loans.
Others are outsorcing and illegals which is sending U. S. dollars overseas to be devalued. 20 billion annually to Mexico. It's bad when one can't understand a service rep, without sufficient knowledge, who is charged with helping you solve your problems.
Anyone see the correlation here to the goals of the Trilatteral Committee?
Side note. In the near future, watch Iran start selling their oil for Euro instead of the standard U.S. dollar.
Try writing to the politicians about curtailing the government dependency on the polygraph (or any of the above) and see if you get an answer. I haven't yet.
I'm so hot my stump is burning. Gotta stop.
Posted by Joker
- Mar 08, 2006, 02:03 PMPerhaps we should start a fund to pay for some advertising with Google. Imagine how much fun it would be if someone searched for "Case Officer at the CIA" and www.antipolygraph.org popped up under sponsored links.
Does anyone really believe that a scientist working at Los Alamos doesn't research the polygraph before submitting to it?
NSAReject,
Could you explain to a layman what an SSO is?
Does anyone really believe that a scientist working at Los Alamos doesn't research the polygraph before submitting to it?
NSAReject,
Could you explain to a layman what an SSO is?
Posted by NSAreject
- Mar 08, 2006, 01:11 PMEosJupiter,
Well, the SSO said, that if he/she gave advice on how
to beat the polygraph, that he/she could lose his/her
clearance, also. I am just repeating what I heard,
and I have heard it over and over again from SSOs.
I wonder, if they really believe this lie, or, if they are
running as scared, as the rest of us ? The whole deal
is one big lie. Having the polygraph definately helps
with job security, but at what personal expense. One
has to make a decision, whether it is worth being
consumed, by such a dysfunctional environment...
Well, the SSO said, that if he/she gave advice on how
to beat the polygraph, that he/she could lose his/her
clearance, also. I am just repeating what I heard,
and I have heard it over and over again from SSOs.
I wonder, if they really believe this lie, or, if they are
running as scared, as the rest of us ? The whole deal
is one big lie. Having the polygraph definately helps
with job security, but at what personal expense. One
has to make a decision, whether it is worth being
consumed, by such a dysfunctional environment...
Posted by EosJupiter
- Mar 08, 2006, 12:47 PM NSAReject,
Do you know what the NSA SSO is going to do ?
I can see a whole bunch of JR Enlisted folks from the different services, all through BASIC, MOS TRAINING, with BONUS's paid out by uncle suger. Not allowed to go in and work because they researched polygraphy. All that taxpayer money wasted and idle. I will have to research the UCMJ Website, but from memory I can't think of anything that informational research breaks in there. At worst the military installations will block this URL from being called. And everyone will research it at home.
Or its really causing such havoc as to make there polygraph program mute. Because so many people have researched it, and no one is scared anyone. That SSO can't fight a tidal wave. I chuckled for quite sometime after this post. In my opinion this is a victory, ( a small one, but a victory none the less).
Regards !!!
|---------------|
George,
Loved the Wizard of OZ reference !!
Regards !!
Do you know what the NSA SSO is going to do ?
I can see a whole bunch of JR Enlisted folks from the different services, all through BASIC, MOS TRAINING, with BONUS's paid out by uncle suger. Not allowed to go in and work because they researched polygraphy. All that taxpayer money wasted and idle. I will have to research the UCMJ Website, but from memory I can't think of anything that informational research breaks in there. At worst the military installations will block this URL from being called. And everyone will research it at home.
Or its really causing such havoc as to make there polygraph program mute. Because so many people have researched it, and no one is scared anyone. That SSO can't fight a tidal wave. I chuckled for quite sometime after this post. In my opinion this is a victory, ( a small one, but a victory none the less).
Regards !!!
|---------------|
George,
Loved the Wizard of OZ reference !!
Regards !!
Posted by NSAreject
- Mar 08, 2006, 12:23 PMAlso, it goes to show how the polygraph is used, as
an intimidation device. As Russ Tice found out,
psychological exams, by their psychologists, are also
used to yank clearances, and reassign employees to
the motor pool, until they quit...
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Mar 08, 2006, 07:02 AMQuote from: nonombre on Mar 07, 2006, 09:30 PM
I akin it to, "If you touch yourself there, you will surely go blind."
The image that comes to my mind is that of the Wizard of Oz commanding, "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"
Posted by EosJupiter
- Mar 08, 2006, 04:36 AMNoNombre,
I am in awe of your enlightened opinion. You have my respect on an honest opinion, we may disagree on the polygraph, but I think your post is highly worthy of praise.
Regards !!
I am in awe of your enlightened opinion. You have my respect on an honest opinion, we may disagree on the polygraph, but I think your post is highly worthy of praise.
Regards !!
Posted by nonombre
- Mar 07, 2006, 09:30 PMQuote from: George W. Maschke on Mar 07, 2006, 02:56 PMThank you for sharing this. The NSA polygraph unit is not the only one concerned about the information we are providing here on AntiPolygraph.org. I have heard privately that at least some CIA applicants have also been instructed not to research polygraphy on-line.
Mr. Maschke,
I am a polygraph examiner and even I think it is pretty stupid to warn people NOT to do something.
I akin it to, "If you touch yourself there, you will surely go blind."
This time I have to admit that I agree with your friends on this. Pretty funny stuff..
Regards,
Nonombre
Posted by Joker
- Mar 07, 2006, 05:34 PMI wonder how long it will be until we see "Have you ever researched the polygraph?" as a control question.
I hope these people realize that antipolygraph.org is the very first response that google provides when you search "polygraph".
I hope these people realize that antipolygraph.org is the very first response that google provides when you search "polygraph".
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Mar 07, 2006, 02:56 PMThank you for sharing this. The NSA polygraph unit is not the only one concerned about the information we are providing here on AntiPolygraph.org. I have heard privately that at least some CIA applicants have also been instructed not to research polygraphy on-line.
Posted by NSAreject
- Mar 07, 2006, 01:58 PMGeorge,
Just heard, from an SSO, that NSA is cracking down on
people doing research on polygraphy on the Internet
(nothing new). Sounds like they are pretty upset
about it. In the past, we were always told not to
discuss the polygraph questions, with other
employees/candidates - what dumbasses we all were
to be mystified by this fantasy. Now, candidates are
being told not to do research on the Internet. What
are they, a bunch of zombies ? Maybe, they will have
to give up looking at Internet porn, too. Just goes to
show, that keeping people ignorant of the polygraph,
is what they depend on - blind-siding people.
So, companies are telling me, that I should risk my
current clearances, and take a CCA (conditional on
successful NSA processing) offer of employment.
We just had someone lose his TS/SCI, after failing the
life-style poly. Anyway, it looks like this site is becoming
NSA's pain-in-the-ass.
Funny stuff !
Just heard, from an SSO, that NSA is cracking down on
people doing research on polygraphy on the Internet
(nothing new). Sounds like they are pretty upset
about it. In the past, we were always told not to
discuss the polygraph questions, with other
employees/candidates - what dumbasses we all were
to be mystified by this fantasy. Now, candidates are
being told not to do research on the Internet. What
are they, a bunch of zombies ? Maybe, they will have
to give up looking at Internet porn, too. Just goes to
show, that keeping people ignorant of the polygraph,
is what they depend on - blind-siding people.
So, companies are telling me, that I should risk my
current clearances, and take a CCA (conditional on
successful NSA processing) offer of employment.
We just had someone lose his TS/SCI, after failing the
life-style poly. Anyway, it looks like this site is becoming
NSA's pain-in-the-ass.
Funny stuff !