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Posted by perplexed
- Mar 17, 2006, 09:49 PMPosted by Johnn
- Mar 06, 2006, 01:59 PMPerplexed,
I know for a fact that you are telling the truth because you feel exactly how I first did when I took my first polygraph back in August and was stunned that I had a reaction to the drug usage question even though I've never used drugs in my life. It's amazing the human reaction - the one of anger and wanting to explain yourself and having a decent chance -how similar it can be...
I was very upset and did not know where to turn. I kept having nightmares of being in prison and seeing people get beat up by cops.
But like polyfool once told me, believe me, it gets better.
I know for a fact that you are telling the truth because you feel exactly how I first did when I took my first polygraph back in August and was stunned that I had a reaction to the drug usage question even though I've never used drugs in my life. It's amazing the human reaction - the one of anger and wanting to explain yourself and having a decent chance -how similar it can be...
I was very upset and did not know where to turn. I kept having nightmares of being in prison and seeing people get beat up by cops.
But like polyfool once told me, believe me, it gets better.
Posted by perplexed
- Mar 06, 2006, 12:40 AMQuote from: Johnn on Mar 05, 2006, 08:58 PM no one who's telling the truth should be afraid.
Amen to that, John!... and the FBI can choose one of the two options:
1. IMMEDIALTELY drop the polygraph because it is worthless in ACCURATELY determinng the TRUTH.
2. Invent another device that WILL be 100% accurate 100% of the time...
This way no one who's telling the truth should EVER be afraid!!...
Posted by perplexed
- Mar 05, 2006, 11:58 PMQuote from: quickfix on Mar 05, 2006, 07:02 PMUnfortunately, some agencies will test regardless of suitability that day. A retest should be conducted by a senior, expereinced examiner with a good reputation of resolving exams. If still unresolved, a decision will be made per that agency's policy on courses of action. I believe the FBI doesn't bother to make any serious effort to resolve an INC/DI poly in the applicant screening arena, which is why folks like "perplexed" get shown the door.
quickfix:
My "inexplicable emotional and physiological responses" to the relevant question had nothing to do with medical issues, recent personal issues, or inadequate sleep the previous night !!!!!....
The polygraph is NOT 100% accurate... 100% of the time!... so it should NOT be relied upon as a 100% accurate measure of deception or truth!... What part of this simple TRUTH are you not getting, my friend?
In my case, the Polygrapher, basing his erroneous judgement SOLELY on the polygraph chart, said (and I paraphrase) that he had "no doubt in his mind" that I was LYING, DECEPTIVE and what have you!!!!... when the simple TRUTH was that I was telling the "TRUTH"...
Even though I could UNMISTAKABLY see that he actually "realized" that the polygraph was inaccurate in my case and backed off... He has NO choice but to put in his report that I failed the "worthless" polygraph examination.
On a last note... if, after my accurate and CANDID presentation, you still feel that it is... well.. no big deal... for patriotic and TRUTHFUL "folks" like me to get shown the door... then, my friend, there is nothing further I can say to you to explain how OUTRAGEOUS, unconscionable and dangerous to our National Security, such intellectually and morally bankrupt measures are!...
While I applaud the use of the ploygraphs as "trick investigative tools" to catch some not so bright REAL criminals, the Polygraphers should get OUT of the "mind reading" business!!!!...
Posted by perplexed
- Mar 05, 2006, 11:41 PMQuote from: quickfix on Mar 05, 2006, 01:02 PM
PS: I really do sympathize with "perplexed"; he got a lousy deal, should have at least gotten another chance to pass his poly.
Thank you quickfix for "sympathizing"... but being highly cognizant of my "inexplicable" involuntary emotional responses (something I cannot control), I do not believe "another chance to pass the poly" will do me ANY justice... nor will it give the good FBI the "TRUTH"!... The Polygraph was TOTALLY inaccurate in my case.... What is so hard to understand?
I could not have said it better than EOSJupiter in his well thought out quotes "anything less than 100% accuracy... 100% of the time is worthless. ONE innocent person's name and veracity destroyed is IMMORAL. Real scientific devices work to those standards (the 3rd decimal degree). Are you going to trust a pacemaker or dialysis machine to less than 100% reliability?"
Posted by Johnn
- Mar 05, 2006, 08:58 PMQuickfix,
If you are such an expert , why are you afraid of taking a poly? Because you are afraid of it producing charts which will label you a liar, correct? I mean, supposedly, no one who's telling the truth should be afraid. And inconclusives are probably a dime a dozen.
The fact that the FBI is too lazy to resolve cases like those of Perplexed is not even the tip of the iceberg. The FBI pretends to have fair hiring standards by re-examining "failures" all the while having the outcome predetermined. Don't you think that this practice is fraudulent and abusive?
I also noticed that some (not all) FBI polygraphers get away with employing abusive tactics because they think in the "we"- like "we feel" and "we this" and "we that" - meaning not only lack of leadership and independent thought, but having the full ability to throw the stone and hide behind a powerful organization.
Unfortunatley, the FBI is an organization which employs a great many intelligent people but at the same time prevents these individuals, or better yet molds these people not to dare and think for themselves and go beyond what's written in a book outlining the rules of a monolithic legacy system. Their failure to think and become flexible is exactly why 9/11 happened.
If you are such an expert , why are you afraid of taking a poly? Because you are afraid of it producing charts which will label you a liar, correct? I mean, supposedly, no one who's telling the truth should be afraid. And inconclusives are probably a dime a dozen.
The fact that the FBI is too lazy to resolve cases like those of Perplexed is not even the tip of the iceberg. The FBI pretends to have fair hiring standards by re-examining "failures" all the while having the outcome predetermined. Don't you think that this practice is fraudulent and abusive?
I also noticed that some (not all) FBI polygraphers get away with employing abusive tactics because they think in the "we"- like "we feel" and "we this" and "we that" - meaning not only lack of leadership and independent thought, but having the full ability to throw the stone and hide behind a powerful organization.
Unfortunatley, the FBI is an organization which employs a great many intelligent people but at the same time prevents these individuals, or better yet molds these people not to dare and think for themselves and go beyond what's written in a book outlining the rules of a monolithic legacy system. Their failure to think and become flexible is exactly why 9/11 happened.
Posted by quickfix
- Mar 05, 2006, 07:02 PMWorked for both Army sides, crim and intell. I can tell you that in virtually all situations where examinee is inconclusive (and in various cases, deceptive), a retest is appropriate. The inconclusives are, in most cases, a result of poor examiner pretest, sloppy polygraph charts, and/or examinee being unsuitable for testing on the particular day (due to medical issues, recent personal issues, or inadequate sleep the previous night (I would never test someone coming off a midnight shift, or having had, say, 4 hours of sleep). Unfortunately, some agencies will test regardless of suitability that day. A retest should be conducted by a senior, expereinced examiner with a good reputation of resolving exams. If still unresolved, a decision will be made per that agency's policy on courses of action. I believe the FBI doesn't bother to make any serious effort to resolve an INC/DI poly in the applicant screening arena, which is why folks like "perplexed" get shown the door. The military services on the other hand, make every effort to resolve them, since they're dealing with soldiers, sailors, airmen, etc, who already have clearances and need a favorable CSP to continue to work, vice gain employment. I think that's why DOD poly programs take a different view than the FBI, SS, etc. I for one would NEVER take an FBI poly (yes, you're hearing it from an examiner!!); I have been poly'd by all the agencies I worked for, and I still get nervous when it's my turn. I think that's why I can relate more to the examinee's point of view; I've sat in the same chair.
I hope this answers your question; you're hearing a forthright opinion from one who does this for a living.
Regards.
I hope this answers your question; you're hearing a forthright opinion from one who does this for a living.
Regards.
Posted by EosJupiter
- Mar 05, 2006, 04:44 PMTwoBlock,
Sure send me what you need to, If I can't give you an answer, then I will take your questions to the experts at school. Two of my professors are top notch corporate attorneys. Shouldn't be a problem.
Regards ....
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Quickfix,
With 20+ years in the Army, so which type of polygrapher (CID or MI) I would like to know ?
Its impressive that you realize perplexed got a raw deal, and as a polygrapher, how do think these tactics and ordeals for innocent people be handled ? What is your opinion for remedies ? When it appears the major agencies have no intent on fixing it themselves. THis website wouldn't even exist if it hadn't been for the gorilla tactics used on folks wrongly accused.
Thanks for posting a truly honest opinion.
Regards ...
Sure send me what you need to, If I can't give you an answer, then I will take your questions to the experts at school. Two of my professors are top notch corporate attorneys. Shouldn't be a problem.
Regards ....
------------------------------------------------------------|
Quickfix,
With 20+ years in the Army, so which type of polygrapher (CID or MI) I would like to know ?
Its impressive that you realize perplexed got a raw deal, and as a polygrapher, how do think these tactics and ordeals for innocent people be handled ? What is your opinion for remedies ? When it appears the major agencies have no intent on fixing it themselves. THis website wouldn't even exist if it hadn't been for the gorilla tactics used on folks wrongly accused.
Thanks for posting a truly honest opinion.
Regards ...
Posted by Twoblock
- Mar 05, 2006, 02:05 PMEosJupitor
Defense lawyers do seem to be in short supply. It, also, seems to be the most thankless realm of lawyering. You are to be commended for picking it. Some DA's sure need an "in your face" defense lawyer. Sounds like you're gonna make a good one.
May I suggest that, in your spare time, you study Constitutional Law. To me, this is the most intriguing part of law. There is, also, a shortage of good federal lawyers. They seem to be not willing to take on the government or large corporations.
If it's OK, I will PM you with a question.
Defense lawyers do seem to be in short supply. It, also, seems to be the most thankless realm of lawyering. You are to be commended for picking it. Some DA's sure need an "in your face" defense lawyer. Sounds like you're gonna make a good one.
May I suggest that, in your spare time, you study Constitutional Law. To me, this is the most intriguing part of law. There is, also, a shortage of good federal lawyers. They seem to be not willing to take on the government or large corporations.
If it's OK, I will PM you with a question.
Posted by quickfix
- Mar 05, 2006, 01:02 PMEJ: Thanks for the compliment; I also have "wise-ass" in the genes; Broxn-born and raised, and 20+ years in Uncle Sam's Army; but I also have a healthy respect for opposing views (including both yours and George's); Good Luck.
PS: I really do sympathize with "perplexed"; he got a lousy deal, should have at least gotten another chance to pass his poly.
PS: I really do sympathize with "perplexed"; he got a lousy deal, should have at least gotten another chance to pass his poly.
Posted by EosJupiter
- Mar 05, 2006, 03:07 AMDetector,
Being a wise ass is what I do, and too many years with the military have me jaded. But in all seriousness, I was going to become a patent lawyer, especially with a scientific and engineering background, but I found that area to be quite boring. But after doing my lawyering skills classes and mock court trials. I found that I really like being a defense lawyer (criminal law was the most interesting course I found). I will most likely startout doing public defender work. And as I get a great check every month from uncle sugar, money is a secondary issue. Good defense lawyers are in short supply in most jurisdictions. And not being a young welp, wet behind the ears, lends credibility in the court room. There is alot of money to be made as a sharp defense lawyer. My plan is to be the defense lawyer that prosecutors cringe at when I enter the courtroom. Everyone deserves a thorough and professional defense. Even Polygraphers !! The opportunity just to banter and argue on this website with you PDD examiners, actually is quite good for dissecting testimony and evidence. But you have to bring your "A" game with valid research for it to be taken seriously. Thanks for asking.
Regards ...
Being a wise ass is what I do, and too many years with the military have me jaded. But in all seriousness, I was going to become a patent lawyer, especially with a scientific and engineering background, but I found that area to be quite boring. But after doing my lawyering skills classes and mock court trials. I found that I really like being a defense lawyer (criminal law was the most interesting course I found). I will most likely startout doing public defender work. And as I get a great check every month from uncle sugar, money is a secondary issue. Good defense lawyers are in short supply in most jurisdictions. And not being a young welp, wet behind the ears, lends credibility in the court room. There is alot of money to be made as a sharp defense lawyer. My plan is to be the defense lawyer that prosecutors cringe at when I enter the courtroom. Everyone deserves a thorough and professional defense. Even Polygraphers !! The opportunity just to banter and argue on this website with you PDD examiners, actually is quite good for dissecting testimony and evidence. But you have to bring your "A" game with valid research for it to be taken seriously. Thanks for asking.
Regards ...
Posted by detector1012000
- Mar 05, 2006, 01:01 AMEOS,
Where do you come up with your snappy replys? I do enjoy the humor in them. Your being a student of law I would be interested in what branch of law you will practice ?
Where do you come up with your snappy replys? I do enjoy the humor in them. Your being a student of law I would be interested in what branch of law you will practice ?
Posted by EosJupiter
- Mar 04, 2006, 10:17 PMQuickfix,
Fortunately, you will have no say in the matter, as this fight will be done though political and court related actions. The federal lawsuit can only be stonewalled so long. The wheel of justice may be slow, but it does crush what is wrong eventually.
But I loved the detailed comeback. Facts, logic and Knowlege will always win against BS. THe heyday of the polygraph is done. Can't keep your secrets, secret anymore. Vive Le Revolution !!!!
Regards .....
Fortunately, you will have no say in the matter, as this fight will be done though political and court related actions. The federal lawsuit can only be stonewalled so long. The wheel of justice may be slow, but it does crush what is wrong eventually.
But I loved the detailed comeback. Facts, logic and Knowlege will always win against BS. THe heyday of the polygraph is done. Can't keep your secrets, secret anymore. Vive Le Revolution !!!!
Regards .....
Posted by quickfix
- Mar 04, 2006, 02:14 PM"We will have our comprehensive employment polygraph ban."
EJ: perhaps, but not today!
EJ: perhaps, but not today!
Posted by EosJupiter
- Mar 04, 2006, 03:41 AMQuote from: quickfix on Mar 02, 2006, 07:43 PM Regarding BIs, they are already done but are extremely time-consuming, and these linguists need to be deployed in short order. When you come up with a better solution than merely "shit-canning" polygraph, let me know
quickfix,
Using your own words, and I do detest using them, "shit-canning" is exactly the idea for the polygraph. By your own admissions & Detectors as well, the validity issues and especially where its only an opinion is the real problem. Anything short of 100% accuracy, 100 % of the time is just a parlor trick. Real scientific devices work to those standards. Are you going to trust a pacemaker or dialysis machine to less than 100%. And for those of us who are trained scientists and engineers (undergrad & Masters) I am not easily conned. You can't read our minds, and you can't beat the inner workings of folks that know deep down in there souls that its a sham. Past polygraphers have found out just that point as stim tests don't work unless you really believe. And having been in combat, I don't think you polygraphers are going to even come close to stressing me out. But I will admit I find it highly entertaining watching you try. The frustration with my type must just drive you to drink.
As far as the linguists you have to polygraph, well they are poor folks trying to work and earn money. And must endure the polygraph to reach that end. It is wrong to submit honest people to an interrogation, just so they can work, and again I say, how many spies have you caught with the polygraph. ANd if so do produce the court records and proceedings. Keep screwing people over and they end up here. With more people calling for the demise of the polygraph. Its just a matter of time and politics. The winds of change are coming. We will have our comprehensive employment polygraph ban.
Regards ....