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Posted by antrella
- Mar 03, 2006, 11:20 PMthe unfortunate truth is that the control questions are there to identify the "innocent" or "good" examinees. the resp. to control questions of a passing examinee will be >> resp. to relevant Qs. at least that is my understanding--
bottom line about polys, while flawed produce far fewer false negatives than false positives - a situation, at least in the federal hiring context - most seem content with.
Posted by Mr. Mystery
- Mar 03, 2006, 11:08 PMDeleted
Posted by polyfool
- Mar 03, 2006, 11:03 PMQuote from: collider on Mar 03, 2006, 10:48 PM
agreed if the applicant failed to respond strongly to the controls - more strongly than to the relevants - his goose is cooked.
Collider,
You're right. I assumed this to be the case, but as you point out, it may not be so.
Mr_Mystery,
For your sake, I hope the controls worried the hell out of you.
Posted by collider
- Mar 03, 2006, 10:48 PMQuote from: polyfool on Mar 03, 2006, 10:37 PMMr_Mystery,
I'm sorry to say it sounds like you indeed had an issue with one of the relevant questions on the FBI's polygraph test. Opinions or results are determined by the series, so failing a relevant, will get you a "deception indicated" on the entire series, just like being inconclusive on one question would show an INC for the entire series--there's no distinction. It sounds like there may be some question about your chart scoring, and the examiner was unsure as to how headquarters is going to handle it--inconclusive or deception indicated? FBI polygraphers do bluff examinees and lie to them. However, I don't think that behavior is typical ( in the FBI) unless the examinee indeed shows a reaction or reactions to one or more relevants. The fact that your examiner was asking you to tell him what was on your mind most likely means that you showed a reaction and he was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. It could be that you "failed" a question that applicants usually pass, such as in the national security portion? Not all polygraph examiners behave the same and therefore, not all yell and act like total jerks. It sounds like you got a fair examiner--if such a thing exists considering he's using an unfair test. Or maybe he's not an over-achiever and doesn't bother getting all worked up in an effort to get a trophy admission/confession? Perhaps, he has doubts about the test's validity? Who knows? It's important to realize that the FBI doesn't care about an applicant's misdeeds that relate to the control questions. The agency's polygraph is designed to ONLY cover the relevants--suitability and security. Problem is, it does a poor job of determining those. It could be that you'll be deemed INC and will have to be retested? I don't want to get you down, but I'd say you do have cause for concern with regards to the outcome of your test. Hope for the best, but prepare for the "not within acceptable parameters" letter. Just my opinion, maybe I'll be wrong, but that's my gut feeling. Sorry. Good luck to you.
agreed if the applicant failed to respond strongly to the controls - more strongly than to the relevants - his goose is cooked.
Posted by polyfool
- Mar 03, 2006, 10:37 PMMr_Mystery,
I'm sorry to say it sounds like you indeed had an issue with one of the relevant questions on the FBI's polygraph test. Opinions or results are determined by the series, so failing a relevant, will get you a "deception indicated" on the entire series, just like being inconclusive on one question would show an INC for the entire series--there's no distinction. It sounds like there may be some question about your chart scoring, and the examiner was unsure as to how headquarters is going to handle it--inconclusive or deception indicated? FBI polygraphers do bluff examinees and lie to them. However, I don't think that behavior is typical ( in the FBI) unless the examinee indeed shows a reaction or reactions to one or more relevants. The fact that your examiner was asking you to tell him what was on your mind most likely means that you showed a reaction and he was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. It could be that you "failed" a question that applicants usually pass, such as in the national security portion? Not all polygraph examiners behave the same and therefore, not all yell and act like total jerks. It sounds like you got a fair examiner--if such a thing exists considering he's using an unfair test. Or maybe he's not an over-achiever and doesn't bother getting all worked up in an effort to get a trophy admission/confession? Perhaps, he has doubts about the test's validity? Who knows? It's important to realize that the FBI doesn't care about an applicant's misdeeds that relate to the control questions. The agency's polygraph is designed to ONLY cover the relevants--suitability and security. Problem is, it does a poor job of determining those. It could be that you'll be deemed INC and will have to be retested? I don't want to get you down, but I'd say you do have cause for concern with regards to the outcome of your test. Hope for the best, but prepare for the "not within acceptable parameters" letter. Just my opinion, maybe I'll be wrong, but that's my gut feeling. Sorry. Good luck to you.
I'm sorry to say it sounds like you indeed had an issue with one of the relevant questions on the FBI's polygraph test. Opinions or results are determined by the series, so failing a relevant, will get you a "deception indicated" on the entire series, just like being inconclusive on one question would show an INC for the entire series--there's no distinction. It sounds like there may be some question about your chart scoring, and the examiner was unsure as to how headquarters is going to handle it--inconclusive or deception indicated? FBI polygraphers do bluff examinees and lie to them. However, I don't think that behavior is typical ( in the FBI) unless the examinee indeed shows a reaction or reactions to one or more relevants. The fact that your examiner was asking you to tell him what was on your mind most likely means that you showed a reaction and he was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. It could be that you "failed" a question that applicants usually pass, such as in the national security portion? Not all polygraph examiners behave the same and therefore, not all yell and act like total jerks. It sounds like you got a fair examiner--if such a thing exists considering he's using an unfair test. Or maybe he's not an over-achiever and doesn't bother getting all worked up in an effort to get a trophy admission/confession? Perhaps, he has doubts about the test's validity? Who knows? It's important to realize that the FBI doesn't care about an applicant's misdeeds that relate to the control questions. The agency's polygraph is designed to ONLY cover the relevants--suitability and security. Problem is, it does a poor job of determining those. It could be that you'll be deemed INC and will have to be retested? I don't want to get you down, but I'd say you do have cause for concern with regards to the outcome of your test. Hope for the best, but prepare for the "not within acceptable parameters" letter. Just my opinion, maybe I'll be wrong, but that's my gut feeling. Sorry. Good luck to you.
Posted by Mr. Mystery
- Mar 03, 2006, 07:23 PMThey were all various people I've known over the years and how they described their experience. What I'm trying to say is that a lot of the control questions are created by looking at an applicant's application or through the pre-test interview with the applicant.
I believe person A's control questions were determined by comparing two different transcripts to grill him. I really don't know how person B's control questions were made, I suspect it was something in the pre-test interview.
Person C I just decided to relay his experience for anyone who was interested. I have no idea what his control questions are.
I believe person A's control questions were determined by comparing two different transcripts to grill him. I really don't know how person B's control questions were made, I suspect it was something in the pre-test interview.
Person C I just decided to relay his experience for anyone who was interested. I have no idea what his control questions are.
Posted by antrella
- Mar 03, 2006, 07:10 PMMr_Mystery - forgive me if I find these anecdotes a bit cryptic. What is the relation between the various persons (A,B,C), which controls were used, and the outcome?
Posted by Mr. Mystery
- Mar 03, 2006, 03:56 PMDeleted
Posted by antrella
- Mar 03, 2006, 03:32 PMNo worries - best of luck and keep us updated.
Posted by Mr. Mystery
- Mar 03, 2006, 03:23 PMDeleted
Posted by antrella
- Mar 03, 2006, 03:09 PMMr. Mystery,
Based on others' and my own experience, I believe you passed. Most instances of failure are accompanied with a confrontation or accusation in an attempt to extract a confession from the examinee. Considering yours was civil, and the maximum strain was a handful of polite inquiries as to "what was on your mind," I would wager you passed as well. Good luck.
Out of curiosity, can you recall the phrasing and number of questions you were asked? Were you too given the "card trick" during the pretest? I'm curious to compare the wealth of bureau experiences discussed on these boards (as well as my own) to one another. Thanks
Based on others' and my own experience, I believe you passed. Most instances of failure are accompanied with a confrontation or accusation in an attempt to extract a confession from the examinee. Considering yours was civil, and the maximum strain was a handful of polite inquiries as to "what was on your mind," I would wager you passed as well. Good luck.
Out of curiosity, can you recall the phrasing and number of questions you were asked? Were you too given the "card trick" during the pretest? I'm curious to compare the wealth of bureau experiences discussed on these boards (as well as my own) to one another. Thanks
Posted by Mr. Mystery
- Mar 03, 2006, 02:05 PMI'll post some more details after a little bit more time passes. I finished my FBI polygraph a little over a week ago.
While it was ongoing I was asked if a question was bothering me. The examiner left the room and then came back in and re-ran the test. When it was all done he said that I had a reaction to one of the questions (it was not the drug question). He asked what I was thinking of during the question. I didn't really have anything to add. I was never really grilled or accused of deception, simply that I had a reaction. I was asked a couple of times in a fairly polite manner what was going through my head during one of the questions. He never said I failed or passed, only that it was "up to headquarters".
I didn't experience any of the yelling or hostility that others have described.
So what is the verdict? Is the presence of any questions at all in the post test phase a kiss of death? Or just a fishing expedition? I'm dreading a thin letter in a few weeks.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Update-- For anyone reading this thread trying to compare experiences. I got the thin letter today, gotta love that polygraph. The best part is that I've passed polys with other agencies.
While it was ongoing I was asked if a question was bothering me. The examiner left the room and then came back in and re-ran the test. When it was all done he said that I had a reaction to one of the questions (it was not the drug question). He asked what I was thinking of during the question. I didn't really have anything to add. I was never really grilled or accused of deception, simply that I had a reaction. I was asked a couple of times in a fairly polite manner what was going through my head during one of the questions. He never said I failed or passed, only that it was "up to headquarters".
I didn't experience any of the yelling or hostility that others have described.
So what is the verdict? Is the presence of any questions at all in the post test phase a kiss of death? Or just a fishing expedition? I'm dreading a thin letter in a few weeks.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Update-- For anyone reading this thread trying to compare experiences. I got the thin letter today, gotta love that polygraph. The best part is that I've passed polys with other agencies.