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A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by Twoblock
- Jan 28, 2006, 08:37 PMFair Chance
Yea, I'm still alive and kicking and refusing to get old. My Alaska mining venture requires both mental and physical toughness. I stay physically fit in the gym and try to stay mentally fit on the internet. Unfortunately, I can't do anything about ugly. Even a face lift wouldn't help me much. I guess my wife still loves me though. She's stuck it out for nearly 53 years.
Best place I've found to do research is on the 'puter. It has more info than a library and I don't have to fight traffic.
Keep giving prospective LEOs your good advice. They would do well to take it.
Yea, I'm still alive and kicking and refusing to get old. My Alaska mining venture requires both mental and physical toughness. I stay physically fit in the gym and try to stay mentally fit on the internet. Unfortunately, I can't do anything about ugly. Even a face lift wouldn't help me much. I guess my wife still loves me though. She's stuck it out for nearly 53 years.
Best place I've found to do research is on the 'puter. It has more info than a library and I don't have to fight traffic.
Keep giving prospective LEOs your good advice. They would do well to take it.
Posted by EosJupiter
- Jan 28, 2006, 07:40 PMLondoner,
This from the CID examiners manual. On who is eligible to take a polygraph. I would assume that the same rules apply for examiners in the UK. Best I got. And I would never imply you to be a pedophile. I understand you just typed the statement in the wrong place.
Hope this helps: Excerpt from, US ARMY CID,
FORENSIC PSYCHOPHYSIOLOGICAL DETECTION OF DECEPTION
(PDD) POLICY AND PROCEDURE MANUAL
Page 44 of 91
8.11 Physical/Emotional Status of Examinees
Ensure a potential examinee is both physically and emotionally fit for PDD testing.
Normally this information should be obtained and evaluated during the pre-instrument
phase of the examination and noted in the PDD Administrative Worksheet. Question
examinees concerning their present physical state. Ascertain if female examinees are
pregnant, and the stage of their pregnancy however, refrain from asking if they are "on
their period" or menstruating. The below questions will elicit the same information.
Examinees who take PDD examinations and subsequently make admissions or
confessions will often allege they were unfit for testing, sick, tired, in pain or under the
influence of medications, drugs or alcohol. Use questions such as:
... Are you in good health?
... Are you in any pain or discomfort?
Page 45 of 91
... Are you presently under the care of or have you recently seen a medical professional
for any physical or emotional problem?
... Are you presently taking a prescription or non-prescription medications or drugs?
... Are you pregnant?
... Do you have any respiratory or cardiovascular problems you are aware of?
... How many hours do you normally sleep each night?
... How many hours did you sleep last night?
... Did you consume any alcoholic beverages in the past 24 hours? How much?
... Are you experiencing any intermittent cramps, pains or aches as a result of any
condition you haven't told me about?
8.12 Examinee Suitability
In those instances when the examinee is undergoing treatment by a medical or mental
health professional, coordination with the attending medical or mental health professional
is essential to evaluate the examinee's overall suitability and to obtain medical clearance
to conduct PDD testing. This form of coordination is also necessary to ensure that PDD
testing does not interfere with ongoing treatment efforts and to prevent PDD testing of an
otherwise unsuitable examinee.
Psychological Suitability: Polygraph testing of an examinee receiving current, on-going
treatment and/or prescribed medication by mental health professionals (psychiatrist,
psychologist, mental health counselors or other mental health professionals) shall be
discontinued or postponed until the examinee's attending mental health professional
declares the individual suitable for PDD testing. Verbal authorization from the attending
mental health professional is permitted, but should be the exception and not the rule. In
instances where the examinee cites mental health related illnesses associated with severe
depression or other severe illnesses, written authorization from the attending mental
health professional is mandatory. Any questions concerning an examinee's
psychological suitability for PDD testing must be addressed with the attending mental
health professional and/or a CRC supervisor prior to PDD testing.
Physiological Suitability: Polygraph testing of an examinee being treated and/or
prescribed medication by medical professionals (doctors, physician assistants, nurses, or
other medical specialist) for significant injuries or illnesses shall be postponed until the
examinee's attending medical professional declares the individual suitable for PDD
testing. Verbal authorization from the attending medical health professional is permitted,
but should be the exception and not the rule. In instances where the examinee cites
severe medical illnesses, written authorization from the attending medical professional is
mandatory. Any questions concerning an examinee's physiological suitability for PDD
testing must be addressed with the attending medical professional and/or a CRC
supervisor prior to PDD testing.
Regards ....
This from the CID examiners manual. On who is eligible to take a polygraph. I would assume that the same rules apply for examiners in the UK. Best I got. And I would never imply you to be a pedophile. I understand you just typed the statement in the wrong place.
Hope this helps: Excerpt from, US ARMY CID,
FORENSIC PSYCHOPHYSIOLOGICAL DETECTION OF DECEPTION
(PDD) POLICY AND PROCEDURE MANUAL
Page 44 of 91
8.11 Physical/Emotional Status of Examinees
Ensure a potential examinee is both physically and emotionally fit for PDD testing.
Normally this information should be obtained and evaluated during the pre-instrument
phase of the examination and noted in the PDD Administrative Worksheet. Question
examinees concerning their present physical state. Ascertain if female examinees are
pregnant, and the stage of their pregnancy however, refrain from asking if they are "on
their period" or menstruating. The below questions will elicit the same information.
Examinees who take PDD examinations and subsequently make admissions or
confessions will often allege they were unfit for testing, sick, tired, in pain or under the
influence of medications, drugs or alcohol. Use questions such as:
... Are you in good health?
... Are you in any pain or discomfort?
Page 45 of 91
... Are you presently under the care of or have you recently seen a medical professional
for any physical or emotional problem?
... Are you presently taking a prescription or non-prescription medications or drugs?
... Are you pregnant?
... Do you have any respiratory or cardiovascular problems you are aware of?
... How many hours do you normally sleep each night?
... How many hours did you sleep last night?
... Did you consume any alcoholic beverages in the past 24 hours? How much?
... Are you experiencing any intermittent cramps, pains or aches as a result of any
condition you haven't told me about?
8.12 Examinee Suitability
In those instances when the examinee is undergoing treatment by a medical or mental
health professional, coordination with the attending medical or mental health professional
is essential to evaluate the examinee's overall suitability and to obtain medical clearance
to conduct PDD testing. This form of coordination is also necessary to ensure that PDD
testing does not interfere with ongoing treatment efforts and to prevent PDD testing of an
otherwise unsuitable examinee.
Psychological Suitability: Polygraph testing of an examinee receiving current, on-going
treatment and/or prescribed medication by mental health professionals (psychiatrist,
psychologist, mental health counselors or other mental health professionals) shall be
discontinued or postponed until the examinee's attending mental health professional
declares the individual suitable for PDD testing. Verbal authorization from the attending
mental health professional is permitted, but should be the exception and not the rule. In
instances where the examinee cites mental health related illnesses associated with severe
depression or other severe illnesses, written authorization from the attending mental
health professional is mandatory. Any questions concerning an examinee's
psychological suitability for PDD testing must be addressed with the attending mental
health professional and/or a CRC supervisor prior to PDD testing.
Physiological Suitability: Polygraph testing of an examinee being treated and/or
prescribed medication by medical professionals (doctors, physician assistants, nurses, or
other medical specialist) for significant injuries or illnesses shall be postponed until the
examinee's attending medical professional declares the individual suitable for PDD
testing. Verbal authorization from the attending medical health professional is permitted,
but should be the exception and not the rule. In instances where the examinee cites
severe medical illnesses, written authorization from the attending medical professional is
mandatory. Any questions concerning an examinee's physiological suitability for PDD
testing must be addressed with the attending medical professional and/or a CRC
supervisor prior to PDD testing.
Regards ....
Posted by Fair Chance
- Jan 28, 2006, 04:50 PMTwoblock,
Glad to see you are still alive and kicking hard as a mule that was just branded.
Regards.
Glad to see you are still alive and kicking hard as a mule that was just branded.
Regards.
Posted by Twoblock
- Jan 28, 2006, 02:14 PMLondoner
Read the posts again. It was nonombre (a polygoofer)who made the accusation not EosJupiter. Nonombre seems to practicing for a political office. He won't answer tough questions. The ones to which he does respond are waffle jobs.
I have read here where a couple of polygraphers stated that they would never give a poly test to anyone on psychotropic medications. The reason is - those medications prevent dependable results. Punitive polygraphers would give the test if the subject was dogass drunk.
Read the posts again. It was nonombre (a polygoofer)who made the accusation not EosJupiter. Nonombre seems to practicing for a political office. He won't answer tough questions. The ones to which he does respond are waffle jobs.
I have read here where a couple of polygraphers stated that they would never give a poly test to anyone on psychotropic medications. The reason is - those medications prevent dependable results. Punitive polygraphers would give the test if the subject was dogass drunk.
Posted by Londoner2006
- Jan 28, 2006, 12:34 PMWell, you'd lose your last "pound sterling" as you put it, nonombre, but thanks for the so-called support. The reason I asked was because I had been told that the major investment banks in London occasionally carry out pre-employment screening, and because I couldn't find any substantial information, I thought that the people who post here might have a better handle on the topic than would I.
EosJupiter--thank you for what information you did provide. The reason I'm worried about polygraph testing is because with my stress medications, I don't know how the test results may wind up interpreted, and I don't want to lose a (potentially very) lucrative job because the damn' drugs made things all wonky. In any case, I appreciate the little help that you gave me very much. As for the implicit accusations that I'm a paedophile, I don't really know what to say other than the fact that if you can so assuredly draw such a conclusion from a post asking for information, perhaps the polygraph can just be replaced by you.
EosJupiter--thank you for what information you did provide. The reason I'm worried about polygraph testing is because with my stress medications, I don't know how the test results may wind up interpreted, and I don't want to lose a (potentially very) lucrative job because the damn' drugs made things all wonky. In any case, I appreciate the little help that you gave me very much. As for the implicit accusations that I'm a paedophile, I don't really know what to say other than the fact that if you can so assuredly draw such a conclusion from a post asking for information, perhaps the polygraph can just be replaced by you.
Posted by EosJupiter
- Jan 28, 2006, 02:15 AMNoNombre,
First & formost, my dislike is for Employment (pre & post) polygraphy and not you. What ever I say and do is not personal, towards you. And never assume it is. I respect LEO's and all that they represent, with the exception of employment polygraph interrogations. Now if I happen upon an article where a LEO has gone bad. And there are always bad apples in very endeavor, then if the polygraph is involved then something about its accuracy needs to be addressed. My stated reasoning is anything less than 100% accuracy, especially where a persons veracity, reputation, and honor is at stake, then that particular process needs to be removed or changed. Too many of my people where branded by the polygraph as liars. Lost there clearances and were eventually reassigned to really bad jobs, that no one else would do or want. Is it fair to take a bright kid, who for lack of anything else was very nervious and naive, and destroy a promising career. The problem with what went on, was the polygraphers word was the final word, and there was not even a chance to counter it. After about my 10th loss of people, I started digging on the polygraph and my research led me to the conclusions I have today. AntiPolygraph.org just put everything I ever learned into a vehicle that people can use, when victimized by unscrupulous examiners. If you are fair and impartial and professional then continue with the polygraph. I don't have an issue with polygraphy in Law Enforcement, especially if it keeps a scumbag pedophile either incarcerated or in tow, or used for valid criminal investigations. But pre-employment polygraphy is wrong, a solid, exhaustive, and thorough BI is the right answer. But these BI are expensive, and time consuming. Hence the reliance on Psych / Poly Exams. They are faster and cheaper than doing the right thing. Likewise every five or so years being submitted to another interrogation by the feds, this is equally wrong, as it was set inplace by the kneejerk reaction to the Hansons, Walkers, and Ames cases. And from recent FBI issues doesn't seem to catch too many spies. Real spies don't care about the polygraph anyways. So why are we doing them, with the exception they are cheaper and faster. Its away for bureaucrats to cover there ass and lay blame if another security breach happens.
I value valid discussion and debate. If you come here and are willing to see our side of the coin, then I will never have an issue with your posts. Likewise I will always listen to opposing views, as there might be something I can learn.
Now for this post, there was not anything on English Law with the exception that US laws are all based on English common law. I didn't have time to get into the international law area today.
And believe it or not, I appreciate the warning. Can't help this person anyways. And if he is a pedophile, then I hope they nail him to the cross. I on purpose stay away from the other threads having to do with anything where law breakers are concerned.
And the correction on Polygraphs used above is good !!!
Regards ....
First & formost, my dislike is for Employment (pre & post) polygraphy and not you. What ever I say and do is not personal, towards you. And never assume it is. I respect LEO's and all that they represent, with the exception of employment polygraph interrogations. Now if I happen upon an article where a LEO has gone bad. And there are always bad apples in very endeavor, then if the polygraph is involved then something about its accuracy needs to be addressed. My stated reasoning is anything less than 100% accuracy, especially where a persons veracity, reputation, and honor is at stake, then that particular process needs to be removed or changed. Too many of my people where branded by the polygraph as liars. Lost there clearances and were eventually reassigned to really bad jobs, that no one else would do or want. Is it fair to take a bright kid, who for lack of anything else was very nervious and naive, and destroy a promising career. The problem with what went on, was the polygraphers word was the final word, and there was not even a chance to counter it. After about my 10th loss of people, I started digging on the polygraph and my research led me to the conclusions I have today. AntiPolygraph.org just put everything I ever learned into a vehicle that people can use, when victimized by unscrupulous examiners. If you are fair and impartial and professional then continue with the polygraph. I don't have an issue with polygraphy in Law Enforcement, especially if it keeps a scumbag pedophile either incarcerated or in tow, or used for valid criminal investigations. But pre-employment polygraphy is wrong, a solid, exhaustive, and thorough BI is the right answer. But these BI are expensive, and time consuming. Hence the reliance on Psych / Poly Exams. They are faster and cheaper than doing the right thing. Likewise every five or so years being submitted to another interrogation by the feds, this is equally wrong, as it was set inplace by the kneejerk reaction to the Hansons, Walkers, and Ames cases. And from recent FBI issues doesn't seem to catch too many spies. Real spies don't care about the polygraph anyways. So why are we doing them, with the exception they are cheaper and faster. Its away for bureaucrats to cover there ass and lay blame if another security breach happens.
I value valid discussion and debate. If you come here and are willing to see our side of the coin, then I will never have an issue with your posts. Likewise I will always listen to opposing views, as there might be something I can learn.
Now for this post, there was not anything on English Law with the exception that US laws are all based on English common law. I didn't have time to get into the international law area today.
And believe it or not, I appreciate the warning. Can't help this person anyways. And if he is a pedophile, then I hope they nail him to the cross. I on purpose stay away from the other threads having to do with anything where law breakers are concerned.
And the correction on Polygraphs used above is good !!!
Regards ....
Posted by nonombre
- Jan 28, 2006, 01:52 AMQuote from: nonombre on Jan 28, 2006, 12:45 AMBe careful EosJupiter. Some VERY good sources tell me that polygraph is illegal in the UK for pre-employment screening and in all criminal investigations except select cases involving convicted sex offenders (the worst ones). I know you don't like polygraph examiners and I especially know you don't like me. I respect that, but I will bet you my last "Pound Sterling" that this guy's a major "Kiddy Slimer" looking for a way out, or perhaps a "free ride" on the bones of a 12 year old.
Just a word of warning...
Nonombre
My Apoligies to all...
I did some checking and I discovered that pre-employment polygraph testing does occur in the UK.
News to me. Once again, sorry.
Nonombre
Posted by nonombre
- Jan 28, 2006, 12:45 AMBe careful EosJupiter. Some VERY good sources tell me that polygraph is illegal in the UK for pre-employment screening and in all criminal investigations except select cases involving convicted sex offenders (the worst ones). I know you don't like polygraph examiners and I especially know you don't like me. I respect that, but I will bet you my last "Pound Sterling" that this guy's a major "Kiddy Slimer" looking for a way out, or perhaps a "free ride" on the bones of a 12 year old.
Just a word of warning...
Nonombre
Just a word of warning...
Nonombre
Posted by EosJupiter
- Jan 27, 2006, 02:49 AMLondoner,
I went out to one of the online Law Libraries, and didn't come up with much about polygraph use in the UK. The only real note I got was that it is hardly ever used there.
I will research tomorrow if there is info available, while I am doing some of my own research for one of my Law school classes.
But in the mean time, down load "The Lie Behind The Lie Detector", from this website, read it thoroughly. Especially chapters 3 & 4 multiple times. Know the countermeasures and how to identify control questions.
Or you can tell the examiner that you know his little scam and you got the information here. He won't be to appreciative of this fact and you most likely will not be hired. But its either you use the methods or are honest and tell him you know that the polygraph is a piece of junk. THe best move is not to even take the polygraph at all. There are other jobs out there, that don't question your integrity and honor. And any employer worth working for, would never resort to a polygraph.
Good luck and regards
I went out to one of the online Law Libraries, and didn't come up with much about polygraph use in the UK. The only real note I got was that it is hardly ever used there.
I will research tomorrow if there is info available, while I am doing some of my own research for one of my Law school classes.
But in the mean time, down load "The Lie Behind The Lie Detector", from this website, read it thoroughly. Especially chapters 3 & 4 multiple times. Know the countermeasures and how to identify control questions.
Or you can tell the examiner that you know his little scam and you got the information here. He won't be to appreciative of this fact and you most likely will not be hired. But its either you use the methods or are honest and tell him you know that the polygraph is a piece of junk. THe best move is not to even take the polygraph at all. There are other jobs out there, that don't question your integrity and honor. And any employer worth working for, would never resort to a polygraph.
Good luck and regards
Posted by Londoner2006
- Jan 27, 2006, 12:13 AMHeya,
Sorry if this topic has been addressed elsewhere, but I couldn't find anything about it. Does anyone know if private companies (such as commercial or investment banks, or consultancies) in the UK are allowed to require pre-employment polygraph tests? I ask because I may have to take one before I begin working, and because of my current stress levels (doing an accelerated degree programme and job interviewing all over the place), I'm fairly certain that my responses will be all over the place. Also, are such companies allowed to ask you personal questions to establish a "baseline", or must they restrict themselves solely to questions that establish your suitability for employment?
For personal (pride) reasons, I don't plan to submit to a polygraph test should the company demand I take one, but by the same token, I don't want to shoot myself in the foot regarding my post-college career. Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Sorry if this topic has been addressed elsewhere, but I couldn't find anything about it. Does anyone know if private companies (such as commercial or investment banks, or consultancies) in the UK are allowed to require pre-employment polygraph tests? I ask because I may have to take one before I begin working, and because of my current stress levels (doing an accelerated degree programme and job interviewing all over the place), I'm fairly certain that my responses will be all over the place. Also, are such companies allowed to ask you personal questions to establish a "baseline", or must they restrict themselves solely to questions that establish your suitability for employment?
For personal (pride) reasons, I don't plan to submit to a polygraph test should the company demand I take one, but by the same token, I don't want to shoot myself in the foot regarding my post-college career. Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.