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A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by Fred F.
- Nov 27, 2001, 09:45 PMQuote
Fred: What can my local legislative representative do for me, and how can I get hold of them (incase I find out that they canned me for no solid reason)?
Netnin,
Here are a couple of helpful links for you for Minnesota
//www.state.mn.us
//www.leg.state.mn.us
Your elected representatives are there to serve you.
You can tell them of the experience you have had and maybe they will offer to get involved ( a phone call, perhaps from a senior aide) that will either scare the daylights out of them if they have no education or clue to government( you never know) or get you an appointment to plead your case to the police commissioner/sheriff. If the local sheriff/police commissioner is an elected official it is all the better as you have education, you told the truth and that wasn't good enough and you have worked hard to make yourself an asset to the dept.
The most important point here is thast you are a constituent and vote. Come election time these officials will want your vote and will be happy to assist you in your endeavor.
Check it out
GOOD LUCK
Fred F.
Posted by therock
- Nov 27, 2001, 12:46 PMNetnin, hate to break it to ya, but the department you tested for is full of shit. If any departments dq for drug use it's for cocaine, heroin, or other hardcore drug use. Now what some departments also do is consider the amount of times you used marijuana, if more than a certain amount ur not considered experimenting, but abusing, also most departments from what I know want a minimum of 3 year abstaining from marijuana use, if that's the case, then it was their internal biases that screwed ya, or politics my friend.
Posted by MissionPoly-ban
- Nov 27, 2001, 02:07 AMHey Fred.
I just discovered that I actually did pass the polygraph test (obtained the results from the polygrapher), and so it appears as if I was disqualified based on my admissions.
However, I am still waiting to talk to the employee relations person for the department I was testing for.
They returned my call, but I was not home.
I hope to talk to them within the next day or two.
I am going to express to them that I already talked to the examiner and received word that I passed the polygraph test.
After letting them know that I am aware that I passed the test, I am going to ask them what the basis was for disqualifying me (I already know it was my admissions that they used to get rid of me--drug use last time in late 90's).
More specifically, I am going to ask them who I can talk to to that dealt with my test results to find out why I was disqualified.
When they (and if they) reveal that it was my admissions that got me disqualified, I am going to ask where I can find out what the departments standards are/where I can get documents that state the departments standards.
Condidering they say you must pass a polygraph to move on in the process, and I did indeed pass it, I want them to come up with the proof that my admissions were truly grounds for disqualification.
My admissions were nothing serious or extreem, and I want to verify that they are not screwing me just for the sake of screwing me.
I want to verify that I was disqualified for good reason, and more importantly, disqualified based on procedure and discrepancy between my admissions and their documented standards.
Fred: What can my local legislative representative do for me, and how can I get hold of them (incase I find out that they canned me for no solid reason)?
Thanks, sincerely,
Netnin Yahoo
PS: I am not expecting jack sh!^ out of this...I just want to see how far I can take this and see what information is available to me.
I just discovered that I actually did pass the polygraph test (obtained the results from the polygrapher), and so it appears as if I was disqualified based on my admissions.
However, I am still waiting to talk to the employee relations person for the department I was testing for.
They returned my call, but I was not home.
I hope to talk to them within the next day or two.
I am going to express to them that I already talked to the examiner and received word that I passed the polygraph test.
After letting them know that I am aware that I passed the test, I am going to ask them what the basis was for disqualifying me (I already know it was my admissions that they used to get rid of me--drug use last time in late 90's).
More specifically, I am going to ask them who I can talk to to that dealt with my test results to find out why I was disqualified.
When they (and if they) reveal that it was my admissions that got me disqualified, I am going to ask where I can find out what the departments standards are/where I can get documents that state the departments standards.
Condidering they say you must pass a polygraph to move on in the process, and I did indeed pass it, I want them to come up with the proof that my admissions were truly grounds for disqualification.
My admissions were nothing serious or extreem, and I want to verify that they are not screwing me just for the sake of screwing me.
I want to verify that I was disqualified for good reason, and more importantly, disqualified based on procedure and discrepancy between my admissions and their documented standards.
Fred: What can my local legislative representative do for me, and how can I get hold of them (incase I find out that they canned me for no solid reason)?
Thanks, sincerely,
Netnin Yahoo
PS: I am not expecting jack sh!^ out of this...I just want to see how far I can take this and see what information is available to me.
Posted by Fred F.
- Nov 27, 2001, 12:15 AMQuoteThey gave no notification as to passing, failing the test, being passed up based on your admissions. No nothing. The note reads to me as though the test itself could have went either way--pass or fail, and that maybe it was the admissions that screwed me (because my experiences ruin my ability to live up to their standards).
Netnin,
The fact they don't address the issue of why you didn't pass is why you sign the release of liability. This is their out for not having to discuss the test or if you did pass or show deception/inconclusive.
I am curious to see what your "results" have to say. Have you considered contacting your local legislative representative for assistance? Remember as a public official they can be a great resource for obtaining the information that you need
Good Luck
Fred F.
Posted by MissionPoly-ban
- Nov 25, 2001, 01:27 AMTHEROCK:
No, I'm not from Illinois...where did you get that idea? As far as I understand it, you are though.....? (sorry I might be confused after reading all these posts!).
However, as in many other states, it is a MUST, as in BACKED BY LAW, for polygraph agencies to provide you with a copy of your polygraph results if you request them and pay the fee (aound 5$) in the state of ILLINOIS.
What you need to do is call up the agency you took the polygraph at and ask them what their specific procedure is to obtain the copy of the test results.
Most likely (as in a 99% chance the procedure will be as follows), they will tell you to send them a letter of request for your polygraph results, including when the polygraph was taken, who the polygraph was for (what PD), and a nice big ole signature so that they know it is you (as well as the 5$ fee).
Remember, it is your RIGHT to obtain the results. They can not tell you "NO," and if they do, tell them you will file a lawsuit (simply put, they won't tell you no because they don't want to get sued!).
I am currently in the process of obtaining three polygraph results from the past. I didn't know that we were allowed access to them in Minnesota until just recently (5 days ago).
The funny thing is, I have no idea what the results were for ANY of the three tests!
I took one test and lied without using countermeasures or anything, and the PD apparantly accepted the results because they kept me on their list after the polygraph, psychological, interview with psychologist, and interview w/department (I was the next one up to get hired if an opening occured, but their budget didn't work out and I didn't get the chance to start the academy...I was PISSED!
For that particular test, I am REALLY curious as to how the test came out. It would be interesting to see that I failed it and yet they still were planning on hiring me.
For the second test I took, I lied again and did not use countermeasures (did not know about them), and received a note stating: "After reviewing your background check and polygraph results, we find it that you don't have the necessary attributes to be an officer."
Again, they didn't tell me whether or not I passed or failed the test, or why specifically they got rid of me.
It will be interesting to see those results as well.
For the last test I took, I used countermeasures on the control questions. And again, I never received notification as to whether or not I passed or failed the test.
I am most interested in seeing the results of this particular test because I want to see how the examiner scored it considering I used countermeasures, and maybe even see if there is note mentioning the possibility that I used countermeasures. Another reason I am particularly interested in the results to this test are to see whether or not the tac-in-the-shoe countermeasure works when used on control questions. If I discover that I passed the test using countermeasures, it will be a great day. If I find out that the tac trick caused an inconclusive or deception result, it will raise questions as to whether or not the use of a physical countermeasure alone is enough to pass the test. I will be able to see if the countermeasures worked even if the examiner only sends me a copy of the questions with their opinion as to whether or not I was lying on each question.
I will be receiving the results to these three tests within the next two to two and a half weeks, and I am going to post what the reality was in comparison to what the examiner interpretted (meaning whether or not the examiner was close to being accurate, very accurate, and way off).
Netnin
No, I'm not from Illinois...where did you get that idea? As far as I understand it, you are though.....? (sorry I might be confused after reading all these posts!).
However, as in many other states, it is a MUST, as in BACKED BY LAW, for polygraph agencies to provide you with a copy of your polygraph results if you request them and pay the fee (aound 5$) in the state of ILLINOIS.
What you need to do is call up the agency you took the polygraph at and ask them what their specific procedure is to obtain the copy of the test results.
Most likely (as in a 99% chance the procedure will be as follows), they will tell you to send them a letter of request for your polygraph results, including when the polygraph was taken, who the polygraph was for (what PD), and a nice big ole signature so that they know it is you (as well as the 5$ fee).
Remember, it is your RIGHT to obtain the results. They can not tell you "NO," and if they do, tell them you will file a lawsuit (simply put, they won't tell you no because they don't want to get sued!).
I am currently in the process of obtaining three polygraph results from the past. I didn't know that we were allowed access to them in Minnesota until just recently (5 days ago).
The funny thing is, I have no idea what the results were for ANY of the three tests!
I took one test and lied without using countermeasures or anything, and the PD apparantly accepted the results because they kept me on their list after the polygraph, psychological, interview with psychologist, and interview w/department (I was the next one up to get hired if an opening occured, but their budget didn't work out and I didn't get the chance to start the academy...I was PISSED!
For that particular test, I am REALLY curious as to how the test came out. It would be interesting to see that I failed it and yet they still were planning on hiring me.
For the second test I took, I lied again and did not use countermeasures (did not know about them), and received a note stating: "After reviewing your background check and polygraph results, we find it that you don't have the necessary attributes to be an officer."
Again, they didn't tell me whether or not I passed or failed the test, or why specifically they got rid of me.
It will be interesting to see those results as well.
For the last test I took, I used countermeasures on the control questions. And again, I never received notification as to whether or not I passed or failed the test.
I am most interested in seeing the results of this particular test because I want to see how the examiner scored it considering I used countermeasures, and maybe even see if there is note mentioning the possibility that I used countermeasures. Another reason I am particularly interested in the results to this test are to see whether or not the tac-in-the-shoe countermeasure works when used on control questions. If I discover that I passed the test using countermeasures, it will be a great day. If I find out that the tac trick caused an inconclusive or deception result, it will raise questions as to whether or not the use of a physical countermeasure alone is enough to pass the test. I will be able to see if the countermeasures worked even if the examiner only sends me a copy of the questions with their opinion as to whether or not I was lying on each question.
I will be receiving the results to these three tests within the next two to two and a half weeks, and I am going to post what the reality was in comparison to what the examiner interpretted (meaning whether or not the examiner was close to being accurate, very accurate, and way off).
Netnin
Posted by therock
- Nov 25, 2001, 12:49 AMNetnin I'm in the same boat as u, being middle eastern myself, just curious are you from Illinois, and if so, I recall signing as part ofthe initial application that the police department had us sign a release about the poly, psych, and medical, physical, and so on, and don't all these tests become property of the agency, and is there still a chance I can obtain my poly results if failure is a reality in the future, inshallah not, anyway please feel free to reply. Thanks.
Posted by MissionPoly-ban
- Nov 24, 2001, 09:42 PMFred: Thanks for you concern and response.
What I am going to attempt to do is let the commissioners know I am aware of the corrupt and prejudice methods they use in choosing their next employee.
I am not appealing in a legal manner, just trying to determine how the commissioners weed out the people they don't want--even if they are overqualified. However, if I find that they didn't have enough grounds to disqualify me, I will take it a step further.
What I am going to do is DEMAND a meeting (via phone or in person) with the commissioners to find out, in their words, why I was disqualified from their list.
I will then compare their responses to the copy of the test results I will be obtaining in the near future.
If, after doing those two things, I find they had no good reason to get rid of me, then things are going to go to another level.
If the case is that I passed the polygraph (which I suspect I did) and they got rid of me based on my minor admissions, I am going to check and see what their requirements/exclusions are in full (as far as minor drug expirementation, etc).
If the case is that I failed the polygraph, I will have nothing more I can do. But the beauty is that I will be able to review the results for myself--after I talk to them.
Why am I doing this?
This is the second time I have come so close to getting hired, only to be eliminated with no good explanation whatsoever as to why I was canned. Never got any specifics or details.
I am sick of seeing people (like myself) go through hell just to get to the polygraph test, only to be stopped after all that effort with a superficial response of "we can not move your application forward."
The least these bastard commissioners can do is let people know why they are disqualified after going through all that work to try and get hired.
It simply isn't fair, and I believe these commissioners owe a better explanation rather than some superficial bull$#! response.
The letter I received after taking the polygraph reads similar to:
"We have analyzed the test results submitted as part of the testing process. Examinations are conducted by people who have great knowledge in matters which are essential in being a police officer. The board finds we cannot move your application forward, and that we need to uphold certain standards in hiring officers."
They gave no notification as to passing, failing the test, being passed up based on your admissions. No nothing. The note reads to me as though the test itself could have went either way--pass or fail, and that maybe it was the admissions that screwed me (because my experiences ruin my ability to live up to their standards).
Netnin
What I am going to attempt to do is let the commissioners know I am aware of the corrupt and prejudice methods they use in choosing their next employee.
I am not appealing in a legal manner, just trying to determine how the commissioners weed out the people they don't want--even if they are overqualified. However, if I find that they didn't have enough grounds to disqualify me, I will take it a step further.
What I am going to do is DEMAND a meeting (via phone or in person) with the commissioners to find out, in their words, why I was disqualified from their list.
I will then compare their responses to the copy of the test results I will be obtaining in the near future.
If, after doing those two things, I find they had no good reason to get rid of me, then things are going to go to another level.
If the case is that I passed the polygraph (which I suspect I did) and they got rid of me based on my minor admissions, I am going to check and see what their requirements/exclusions are in full (as far as minor drug expirementation, etc).
If the case is that I failed the polygraph, I will have nothing more I can do. But the beauty is that I will be able to review the results for myself--after I talk to them.
Why am I doing this?
This is the second time I have come so close to getting hired, only to be eliminated with no good explanation whatsoever as to why I was canned. Never got any specifics or details.
I am sick of seeing people (like myself) go through hell just to get to the polygraph test, only to be stopped after all that effort with a superficial response of "we can not move your application forward."
The least these bastard commissioners can do is let people know why they are disqualified after going through all that work to try and get hired.
It simply isn't fair, and I believe these commissioners owe a better explanation rather than some superficial bull$#! response.
The letter I received after taking the polygraph reads similar to:
"We have analyzed the test results submitted as part of the testing process. Examinations are conducted by people who have great knowledge in matters which are essential in being a police officer. The board finds we cannot move your application forward, and that we need to uphold certain standards in hiring officers."
They gave no notification as to passing, failing the test, being passed up based on your admissions. No nothing. The note reads to me as though the test itself could have went either way--pass or fail, and that maybe it was the admissions that screwed me (because my experiences ruin my ability to live up to their standards).
Netnin
Posted by Fred F.
- Nov 24, 2001, 08:17 PMNetnin,
It amazes me that you have been victimized by the agency without a real given explaination. You should check to see what Minnesotas Freedom of Information act consists of and if you can obtain the records of the "exam" to assist in your appeal.
I too have been DQed by the polygraph. However, the Los Angeles County Sheriffs Dept gives NO veterans or college credit by way of points. That wouldn't stop them from being preferential "off the record". When I applied I too thought telling the truth was best because I already work for them in a civilian postion and had recently finished my Masters degree. Telling the truth is how they find the "ammo" to use against you and then manipulate the poly so that regardless of what occurs, you are "deceptive" or "fail". If you have read some of my other posts LASD polygraphers are paid $70,000 a year and have everyone sign a release of liability(posted on this site for all to read). This gives the polygrapher carte blanche to determine the outcome. So if you don't fit the "profile", you don't stand a chance.
You have the knowledge and knowledge is power, I hope you have a successful appeal
GOOD LUCK!
Fred F.
It amazes me that you have been victimized by the agency without a real given explaination. You should check to see what Minnesotas Freedom of Information act consists of and if you can obtain the records of the "exam" to assist in your appeal.
I too have been DQed by the polygraph. However, the Los Angeles County Sheriffs Dept gives NO veterans or college credit by way of points. That wouldn't stop them from being preferential "off the record". When I applied I too thought telling the truth was best because I already work for them in a civilian postion and had recently finished my Masters degree. Telling the truth is how they find the "ammo" to use against you and then manipulate the poly so that regardless of what occurs, you are "deceptive" or "fail". If you have read some of my other posts LASD polygraphers are paid $70,000 a year and have everyone sign a release of liability(posted on this site for all to read). This gives the polygrapher carte blanche to determine the outcome. So if you don't fit the "profile", you don't stand a chance.
You have the knowledge and knowledge is power, I hope you have a successful appeal
GOOD LUCK!
Fred F.
Posted by MissionPoly-ban
- Nov 24, 2001, 07:04 PMTHE ROCK:
I have already left a voicemail with the employee relations (at the Police department) person saying I fully intend on finding out the detailed reasons as to why I was passed up, and that I will be urgently seeking to talk to one of the commissioners/cheif commissioners.
I let them know that i was not satisified with the superficial response of "we cannot move your application forward," and that I went through a lot to try and get hired, so they should atleast have the decency to let me know what it was that got me passed up.(The note did not address whether or not I passed the test or not).
I ended the message saying I will call back If I dont hear from you.
At the same time, I am sending in a request to the polygraph agency to send me the results of my polygraph test (they HAVE TO BY LAW IN MINNESOTA!....5$ fee).
I want to see if what I am told by the commissioners stacks up with what the results of the polygraph were (to see if this was just a way to weed me out).
If they refuse to tell me what it was that got me disqualified,I am going to raise charges (verbally not legally) of prejudice by the department (I am of a certain background that is under heat right now if you know what I mean 9-11-01).
That should get them talking.
If I find out what they tell me doesn't correspond with what is on the polygraph results, that is even better. I can give them even more heat/shit.
I don't plan on getting anything out of this rather than a little excitement.
Ultimately, this is the second time I have been passed up and given no clear or detailed reason as to why. I need to start knowing what it was so that i don't even bother wasting my f 'ing time the second time around.
Netnin
(PS: DOes it make sense that the department sends you a note giving you no good reason as to why you were passed up, but then in the same note they say they hope they are not discouraging from re-testing with the department next time around? SCrew that...)
I have already left a voicemail with the employee relations (at the Police department) person saying I fully intend on finding out the detailed reasons as to why I was passed up, and that I will be urgently seeking to talk to one of the commissioners/cheif commissioners.
I let them know that i was not satisified with the superficial response of "we cannot move your application forward," and that I went through a lot to try and get hired, so they should atleast have the decency to let me know what it was that got me passed up.(The note did not address whether or not I passed the test or not).
I ended the message saying I will call back If I dont hear from you.
At the same time, I am sending in a request to the polygraph agency to send me the results of my polygraph test (they HAVE TO BY LAW IN MINNESOTA!....5$ fee).
I want to see if what I am told by the commissioners stacks up with what the results of the polygraph were (to see if this was just a way to weed me out).
If they refuse to tell me what it was that got me disqualified,I am going to raise charges (verbally not legally) of prejudice by the department (I am of a certain background that is under heat right now if you know what I mean 9-11-01).
That should get them talking.
If I find out what they tell me doesn't correspond with what is on the polygraph results, that is even better. I can give them even more heat/shit.
I don't plan on getting anything out of this rather than a little excitement.
Ultimately, this is the second time I have been passed up and given no clear or detailed reason as to why. I need to start knowing what it was so that i don't even bother wasting my f 'ing time the second time around.
Netnin
(PS: DOes it make sense that the department sends you a note giving you no good reason as to why you were passed up, but then in the same note they say they hope they are not discouraging from re-testing with the department next time around? SCrew that...)
Posted by therock
- Nov 24, 2001, 06:23 PMMost likely true Netnin, trust me I have been a victim of the preference points for a while now, but recently most agencies here in Illinois have began giving preference for associates degrees in criminal justice or bachelors degrees in any field, u know that I'm in a background portion of one department waiting to get scheduled for a poly, psych, and medical, I took number 2 on a list of 40. There is another department I have finished interviewing for, and they are looking for 3-5 between the next 6 months I took number 4 on the initial elgibility list, now remember ur allowed 5 points for either military, or education but can claim these points one time, and the difference between me and number one is 2.8 points so I have to hope one of them doesn't have the background to guarantee me an offer, but even if i take 4 there is still a good shot since they're looking for 3-5. Do you think you would be able to find out if you at least passed the poly or are they the type to keep everything confidential and will not release results like many typical departments that look for a scapegoat when they don't want to hire certain applicants. I will email u in a minute i have a question that is not related to poly's, but more law enforcement.
Posted by MissionPoly-ban
- Nov 24, 2001, 05:52 PMTHEROCK:
Thanks for your understanding and sympathy. This road is a long one we are on in becoming officers.
One of the strongest reasons I am a bit skeptical that the polygraph was used against me to simply exclude me and move on to the next people on the list is because of the following:
I went back to the original preliminary list and then compared it to the final eligibility list (final list has over onehundred people on it). In doing so, I found that within JUST THE FOLLOWING TEN PEOPLE ON THE LIST AFTER ME, 7 (as in 7 out of 10!) received the full 5 additional points for either military experience or possible PRE-POLICE experience! It doesn't surprise me whatsoever that they passed me up.
Who would you go for...someone who was a cop for 2-10 years, or some guy who has never done any police work and is a raw canvass? lol.
It has become more and more obvious to me, after reading this board, that the polygraph IS a tool to get rid of people that they have no good reason to get rid of other than to move on the next guy!
I will not be surprised to see that I passed the test only to be disqualified based on my admissions (which weren't even serious).
Netnin
Thanks for your understanding and sympathy. This road is a long one we are on in becoming officers.
One of the strongest reasons I am a bit skeptical that the polygraph was used against me to simply exclude me and move on to the next people on the list is because of the following:
I went back to the original preliminary list and then compared it to the final eligibility list (final list has over onehundred people on it). In doing so, I found that within JUST THE FOLLOWING TEN PEOPLE ON THE LIST AFTER ME, 7 (as in 7 out of 10!) received the full 5 additional points for either military experience or possible PRE-POLICE experience! It doesn't surprise me whatsoever that they passed me up.
Who would you go for...someone who was a cop for 2-10 years, or some guy who has never done any police work and is a raw canvass? lol.
It has become more and more obvious to me, after reading this board, that the polygraph IS a tool to get rid of people that they have no good reason to get rid of other than to move on the next guy!
I will not be surprised to see that I passed the test only to be disqualified based on my admissions (which weren't even serious).
Netnin
Posted by therock
- Nov 24, 2001, 11:46 AMDon't worry Netnin, there are other departments, trust me I've been thru the same road as u have except for the polygraph part, but I have a suspicion that politics might have come to play if it was a smaller sized police department, I'm curious into finding out why they disqualified you though? I guess we'll have to wait and see
Posted by MissionPoly-ban
- Nov 24, 2001, 12:22 AMI took a pre-employment polygraph test for a local police department not too long ago and used the old tac-in-the-shoe trick on the control questions (was easily able to detect the controls and employed the self-inflicted pain appropriately).
I just received a letter via the mail from the department the polygraph was for.
The letter did not specifically say that I failed the polygraph
or that they thought I was deceptive. All the letter states is that they are not going to move my application forward because, after reviewing the test results, they want to uphold the departments strong level of standards.
While it might appear as though it is definite that I failed the polygraph (found to be deceptive/DI), there might be another possible explanation:
I did make pre-test admissions pointing to the fact that I used certain drugs in the past (last time being in the late 90's), did steal from the old job I worked at, and have driven under the influence/drunk in the last three years.
There are police departments that will disqualify candidates for admitting to these types of things, and it is quite possible that it was my admissions that got me disqualified rather than the actual polygraph test results (I learned a lesson about opening my mouth!).
I am currently in the process of obtaining the detailed results of the test, and will let all who read the message board know whether or not it was the test results itself or my admissions that got me disqualified (or it could be both...).
My purpose in making this post is to let you know whether or not the tac countermeasure is effective when used solely by itself.
DAMN MINNESOTA POLICE COMMISSIONERS!
Netnin
I just received a letter via the mail from the department the polygraph was for.
The letter did not specifically say that I failed the polygraph
or that they thought I was deceptive. All the letter states is that they are not going to move my application forward because, after reviewing the test results, they want to uphold the departments strong level of standards.
While it might appear as though it is definite that I failed the polygraph (found to be deceptive/DI), there might be another possible explanation:
I did make pre-test admissions pointing to the fact that I used certain drugs in the past (last time being in the late 90's), did steal from the old job I worked at, and have driven under the influence/drunk in the last three years.
There are police departments that will disqualify candidates for admitting to these types of things, and it is quite possible that it was my admissions that got me disqualified rather than the actual polygraph test results (I learned a lesson about opening my mouth!).
I am currently in the process of obtaining the detailed results of the test, and will let all who read the message board know whether or not it was the test results itself or my admissions that got me disqualified (or it could be both...).
My purpose in making this post is to let you know whether or not the tac countermeasure is effective when used solely by itself.
DAMN MINNESOTA POLICE COMMISSIONERS!
Netnin