- Welcome to AntiPolygraph.org Message Board.
A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by nunyun
- Oct 05, 2004, 09:41 PMI appreciate your comment but I am not willing to be a martyr. For investigative techniques the poly may be a good thing as a tool, but I feel that more time should be spent on a good background ie; an agent or detective should go to your home, talk with your neighbors, run the III for a criminal check, run your credit and check you NCIC for 29's talk to people who went to school with you. I have to hand it to the feds their backgrounds can run 24 months but it is in depth. Unfortunatley the poly is so unreliable that it is becoming common knowledge that you CAN change your physiological responses to show indications on some answers compared to others. When it comes to good detective work, DNA, and computer checks, the poly is becoming out dated. I would support any instrument that could be scientifically proven to be useful in such cases for BI's or evidence in court in a criminal proceeding. Until then one false positive is too many. It is no different than sending and innocent man to jail or letting a quilty party get away. I do not arrest on articuble suspicion I arrest on PC. I stop cars on suspicion, I question people on suspicion but make my arrest when I feel that the evidence clearly points to one person. Anyway I will be jumped on by examiners but that is ok as with many investigative changes with technology in law enforcement they too will have to change with the times. Brain wave machines are coming to light along with other things so we shall see what the future brings. For now this problem and debate will go on for a while until they move on to the next technology.
Posted by Sluggo
- Oct 05, 2004, 08:02 PMnunyun;
I'm pleased to see a LEO on this site recognize poly testing as a gamble. I don't know how many other LEOs would agree, but it's good to see you here.
More importantly, you took the time to research the polys b4 you tested.
When I initiate my polys to discredit two diff allegations, I didn't bother w/research; I was going to tell the truth, so I didn't NEED to research polys... then failed it... The second time I didn't research polys because I felt that, maybe the first time I failed the poly, it was just a 'fluke'... then failed it, too...
Poooor judgement on my part.
Good thing you went in prepared, and didn't allow the possibility of the "chance" testing of a poly affect your career.
It's an ugly animal though: those who pass will agree polys work... and how can you refute an argument like that...
I'm pleased to see a LEO on this site recognize poly testing as a gamble. I don't know how many other LEOs would agree, but it's good to see you here.
More importantly, you took the time to research the polys b4 you tested.When I initiate my polys to discredit two diff allegations, I didn't bother w/research; I was going to tell the truth, so I didn't NEED to research polys... then failed it... The second time I didn't research polys because I felt that, maybe the first time I failed the poly, it was just a 'fluke'... then failed it, too...
Poooor judgement on my part.
Good thing you went in prepared, and didn't allow the possibility of the "chance" testing of a poly affect your career.
It's an ugly animal though: those who pass will agree polys work... and how can you refute an argument like that...
Posted by nunyun
- Oct 02, 2004, 04:00 PMGino:
I have read thousands of post when I came to this site before I started posting and I agree and can see exactly what you are saying. As a lurker out in cyber space I could quickly see the anger by polygraphers such as "ISBS" and some guy from northern CA who posted against using CM's because he is an expert and he could easily catch me. There was a couple from the Army polygrapgh institute also. I think the best part of the post I have read are when somebody post an expierience and states "I just told my examiner the truth and because I did this I passed" or "I used CM's and got caught but the examiner gave me a chance to come clean and I still passed". These post are quickly followed by an examiner stating high glory's or praise and what a great example this person is setting. All to have the AP Admistrator come in and post that the whole story came from the same IP address. They are always good for a laugh and showed that if there is nothing to this site why would an examiner waste so much time here diseminating false stories? All I can say about this is I read the book, I learned certain CM's and utilized them. I had nothing to hide I am already a cop and was in the military with a good conduct discharge. Why would I want to beat the test? Because I don't go to Vegas and I don't gamble which is what I see in poly's. I wanted to stack the deck in my favor not the examiners. I don't go into a burglary call without backup, I position my unit a certain way on traffic stops so I don't get clipped by traffic and spot light the driver in the face so I can make a safe approach in case the person I stopped wants to kill me and I articulate my reports and gather my evidence before I go to court so I can get a conviction. So why would I not prepare for a "TEST" that could ruin the next step in a career that is unblemished. Bottom line is that it worked with no problems, I am greatfull to those who run this site and have decided to hang around for a while and contribute.
As far as 911forums, although I recomended the site, for what the kid wanted I figured he would find more "experts" there and by going to several sites he can get several opinions and find what would work for himself. You have seen my post and I don't think I am over the top with my manner of thinking but after only three post I was "banned" from that forum for pointing out discrepencies with what the moderators were stating. Ohh well I'm banned from an internet site I have had worse, like when the skinny trailer trash lady kicked my ass when I was a rookie (JK)..
I have read thousands of post when I came to this site before I started posting and I agree and can see exactly what you are saying. As a lurker out in cyber space I could quickly see the anger by polygraphers such as "ISBS" and some guy from northern CA who posted against using CM's because he is an expert and he could easily catch me. There was a couple from the Army polygrapgh institute also. I think the best part of the post I have read are when somebody post an expierience and states "I just told my examiner the truth and because I did this I passed" or "I used CM's and got caught but the examiner gave me a chance to come clean and I still passed". These post are quickly followed by an examiner stating high glory's or praise and what a great example this person is setting. All to have the AP Admistrator come in and post that the whole story came from the same IP address. They are always good for a laugh and showed that if there is nothing to this site why would an examiner waste so much time here diseminating false stories? All I can say about this is I read the book, I learned certain CM's and utilized them. I had nothing to hide I am already a cop and was in the military with a good conduct discharge. Why would I want to beat the test? Because I don't go to Vegas and I don't gamble which is what I see in poly's. I wanted to stack the deck in my favor not the examiners. I don't go into a burglary call without backup, I position my unit a certain way on traffic stops so I don't get clipped by traffic and spot light the driver in the face so I can make a safe approach in case the person I stopped wants to kill me and I articulate my reports and gather my evidence before I go to court so I can get a conviction. So why would I not prepare for a "TEST" that could ruin the next step in a career that is unblemished. Bottom line is that it worked with no problems, I am greatfull to those who run this site and have decided to hang around for a while and contribute.
As far as 911forums, although I recomended the site, for what the kid wanted I figured he would find more "experts" there and by going to several sites he can get several opinions and find what would work for himself. You have seen my post and I don't think I am over the top with my manner of thinking but after only three post I was "banned" from that forum for pointing out discrepencies with what the moderators were stating. Ohh well I'm banned from an internet site I have had worse, like when the skinny trailer trash lady kicked my ass when I was a rookie (JK)..
Posted by G Scalabr
- Oct 02, 2004, 05:18 AMnunyun,
Until this year, the only posts we deleted were those containing nothing more than commercial advertising not related to polygraphy (i.e. people posting ads for electronics stores, cigarettes, etc). Registration was not required.
This year, we were hit with a deluge of posts made by angry polygraphers consisting solely of insults, profanity, personal attacks, etc. These posts, made by unregistered users employing different names, added absolutely nothing to the discussion. They simply attacked others for failing polygraphs (which the facts show are worthless "tests,"), creating this site, etc.
We decided to deal with this issue by moving such posts to the Discarded Posts Forum. You can see for yourself the type of posts that have been moved.
Unfortunately, while this slowed our problem, it did not stop it. We were still spending a great deal of time cutting and pasting posts. Last month, we took the regrettable step on enabling "force registration" for the board. This requires malicious posters to take the additional step of creating a new account (which requires a unique e-mail address) each time they want to re-register. It has cut down on a lot of our problems.
I am going to try to dig up a bunch of the old stuff re: the censorship issues we dealt with on 911jobforums.com (formerly lawenforcementjob.com). As you know, they quickly rip down any posts exposing the truth and/or trickery behind polygraphy. The reasoning, they facetiously claimed, was that they wanted to avoid "commercial" posts. As their site was a for-profit site then (and it even moreso now), this did not make sense. Moreoever, AntiPolygraph.org is a non-profit site. We don't even accept donations. It is a money-losing, out-of-pocket operation run by a few victims of polygraphy. I wrote an e-mail to Bob Amaral (the owner of LEjob.com), explaining this, and asking for clarification on the terms of service (specifically, if the criteria is commercial posting, why were posts still being deleted?). I never received the courtesy of a reply.
The fact is that 911jobforums is a commercial site that law enforcement employers pay to advertise on. It appears that any posts that portray the negative side of an employer (no matter how respectfully written and accurate they are) are being deleted. This is deplorable, especially when the site is funded in substantial part by checks from LE employers (essentially tax money).
Exposing this site is something on my list of priorities when we map out a re-design of AntiPolygraph.org (currently scheduled for late 2005/early 2006). Drew Richardson and I discussed having him respond to threads on polygraphy at 911jobforums.com. Copies of his posts (which I'm sure will be deleted) and links to the 911jobforums threads will be posted on a page at AntiPolygraph.org. This could be very interesting, as Dr. Richardson is uniquely qualified to speak on polygraph matters. It would also be very hard to accuse him of having a commercial interest here.
Until this year, the only posts we deleted were those containing nothing more than commercial advertising not related to polygraphy (i.e. people posting ads for electronics stores, cigarettes, etc). Registration was not required.
This year, we were hit with a deluge of posts made by angry polygraphers consisting solely of insults, profanity, personal attacks, etc. These posts, made by unregistered users employing different names, added absolutely nothing to the discussion. They simply attacked others for failing polygraphs (which the facts show are worthless "tests,"), creating this site, etc.
We decided to deal with this issue by moving such posts to the Discarded Posts Forum. You can see for yourself the type of posts that have been moved.
Unfortunately, while this slowed our problem, it did not stop it. We were still spending a great deal of time cutting and pasting posts. Last month, we took the regrettable step on enabling "force registration" for the board. This requires malicious posters to take the additional step of creating a new account (which requires a unique e-mail address) each time they want to re-register. It has cut down on a lot of our problems.
I am going to try to dig up a bunch of the old stuff re: the censorship issues we dealt with on 911jobforums.com (formerly lawenforcementjob.com). As you know, they quickly rip down any posts exposing the truth and/or trickery behind polygraphy. The reasoning, they facetiously claimed, was that they wanted to avoid "commercial" posts. As their site was a for-profit site then (and it even moreso now), this did not make sense. Moreoever, AntiPolygraph.org is a non-profit site. We don't even accept donations. It is a money-losing, out-of-pocket operation run by a few victims of polygraphy. I wrote an e-mail to Bob Amaral (the owner of LEjob.com), explaining this, and asking for clarification on the terms of service (specifically, if the criteria is commercial posting, why were posts still being deleted?). I never received the courtesy of a reply.
The fact is that 911jobforums is a commercial site that law enforcement employers pay to advertise on. It appears that any posts that portray the negative side of an employer (no matter how respectfully written and accurate they are) are being deleted. This is deplorable, especially when the site is funded in substantial part by checks from LE employers (essentially tax money).
Exposing this site is something on my list of priorities when we map out a re-design of AntiPolygraph.org (currently scheduled for late 2005/early 2006). Drew Richardson and I discussed having him respond to threads on polygraphy at 911jobforums.com. Copies of his posts (which I'm sure will be deleted) and links to the 911jobforums threads will be posted on a page at AntiPolygraph.org. This could be very interesting, as Dr. Richardson is uniquely qualified to speak on polygraph matters. It would also be very hard to accuse him of having a commercial interest here.
Posted by nunyun
- Oct 02, 2004, 12:27 AMamen to that, I hate that site at least here both sides are no where nearly as censored as other sites I have seen
Posted by G Scalabr
- Oct 01, 2004, 10:39 PMcolorman,
I've heard of many people successfully appealing medical DQs, especially with larger departments. The medical (followed closely by the psych) tends to be one of the easiest things to appeal (anecdotally anyway).
I would go to a civilian doctor and get tested. I would then send them a letter via certified mail informing them that you have been independently tested (and that you passed) and that you wish to be re-tested.
Note that while there is a lot of good info on 911jobforums.com, you need to keep in mind that the site is heavily censored. 911jobforums depends heavily on advertising revenue from police agencies. Thus, posts demeaning to a police agency or hiring process (among other things) are often quickly deleted.
I've heard of many people successfully appealing medical DQs, especially with larger departments. The medical (followed closely by the psych) tends to be one of the easiest things to appeal (anecdotally anyway).
I would go to a civilian doctor and get tested. I would then send them a letter via certified mail informing them that you have been independently tested (and that you passed) and that you wish to be re-tested.
Note that while there is a lot of good info on 911jobforums.com, you need to keep in mind that the site is heavily censored. 911jobforums depends heavily on advertising revenue from police agencies. Thus, posts demeaning to a police agency or hiring process (among other things) are often quickly deleted.
Posted by colorman
- Oct 01, 2004, 06:11 PM
Just wondering what any one else has to say regarding the issue? I have lived 26 years of my life and have never known that I have a color deficiency until a city nurse completed the examination. I have been driving the last 10 years and do not have any tickets from running red lights or accidents because I couldn't tell the guy in front of me was braking. I really feel that this should not be an issue. I have considered taking the Air Forces color vision test and will research my options as to having a civilian doctor test me. This is very frustrating. Any word? Someone has had to appeal a result like this and won. Let me know. OUT!Posted by nunyun
- Sep 30, 2004, 01:27 PMI have heard of a lot of people that have appealed it and most were unsucessful (the advice I gave you is what I have heard what they were told by the medical unit) as with appealing your FBI poly results. More information can be foud on some of the many other LEO websites that deal with other aspects of the hiring process such as this and you will probably get a better response. As you can see you are hanging out with the shadows here as the point of the site is with Poly's and how unbelievably accurate they are. Try 911 forums or police.com or delphi forums and look up federal leo jobs vision problems. You will find that you are not alone with your problem. Wish I could be more help.
Posted by colorman
- Sep 30, 2004, 03:55 AMThanks for responding nunyun.
Have you known or heard of anyone successfully appealing this by obtaining additional tests from a personal eye doc?
Have you known or heard of anyone successfully appealing this by obtaining additional tests from a personal eye doc?
Posted by nunyun
- Sep 30, 2004, 03:36 AMalmost all agencies have color vision requirements that must be met and the test you described is a standardized test that I have also taken, the reason is because of night vision and "starburst" problems that can interfere with working night shift.
You can see a different optomologist at your own expense and go from there if you want to try to apeal the descision.....
good luck..
You can see a different optomologist at your own expense and go from there if you want to try to apeal the descision.....
good luck..
Posted by colorman
- Sep 30, 2004, 03:17 AMWondering if having a color deficiency disqualification has a permanent effect on hiring for police candidant? According to the city for which I applied for, I failed the color test (the one with the different colors of numbers within the circles). I am interested in appealing this decision because of different factors. Any suggestions? All of the other examinations have been passed, including the polygraph test.