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Posted by Marty
- Aug 11, 2004, 01:36 PMQuote from: POLYSCORE on Aug 11, 2004, 12:32 PMA mental countermeasure is not strong enough to overcome a response on the relevant questions (even if used "properly").Matte gets nearly livid when discussing his belief that the DLCQT produces false negatives. Why do you suppose that is?
Quotei would like to see you use a mental countermeasure on a Relevant and get by!Your suggestion would be more credible had you not said this. You undercut your own position.
BTW, I like your choice of aliases.
-Marty
Posted by POLYSCORE
- Aug 11, 2004, 12:32 PM A mental countermeasure is not strong enough to overcome a response on the relevant questions (even if used "properly"). i would like to see you use a mental countermeasure on a Relevant and get by!
Good luck - you will need it!
Good luck - you will need it!
Posted by dimas
- Aug 03, 2004, 09:36 AMQuote from: anxietyguy on Aug 02, 2004, 06:53 PMDimas,
So what your saying is that if I leave my baseline breathing the same for all questions including the control I will be ok?If I just use a physical countermeasure without the breathing will this produce a "truthfull" chart? Anyone else have any thoughts on this matter except ISBS? Thanks for the help guys.
Anxiety
You need to use a countermeasure on the control question. What I am advising against is the use of a breathing countermeasure, because it can easily tip off the examiner.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Aug 03, 2004, 08:58 AMNyla,
Polygraph countermeasures are techniques for passing (or beating) a polygraph examination. For details, see Chapter 4 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector.
Polygraph countermeasures are techniques for passing (or beating) a polygraph examination. For details, see Chapter 4 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector.
Posted by Nyla
- Aug 03, 2004, 05:37 AMCan someone explain to me what exactly is countermeasures and how is it used? 
Posted by anxietyguy
- Aug 02, 2004, 06:53 PMDimas,
So what your saying is that if I leave my baseline breathing the same for all questions including the control I will be ok?If I just use a physical countermeasure without the breathing will this produce a "truthfull" chart? Anyone else have any thoughts on this matter except ISBS? Thanks for the help guys.
Anxiety
So what your saying is that if I leave my baseline breathing the same for all questions including the control I will be ok?If I just use a physical countermeasure without the breathing will this produce a "truthfull" chart? Anyone else have any thoughts on this matter except ISBS? Thanks for the help guys.
Anxiety
Posted by dimas
- Jul 24, 2004, 07:30 AMQuote from: NeutralObserver on Jul 23, 2004, 03:16 PMDimas, I will ask you what George, and ISBS have both asked, and perhaps you will answer if I ask more politely. What is the basis for your advice on polygraph countermeasures. Can you give us some idea of your expertise on this subject?
NeutralObserver, I could answer your question in a variety of ways, I could say I was a Polygrapher, have studied to become one, had experience taking polygraphs, have worked in a field in which polygraphs are used regulary, have a medical background, am in Law Enforcement, that I am a "mind reader" or a variety of truths or lies, obvious or not, either way it would not matter as they would all be met with the same skepticism due to the nature of anonimity that a message board like this entails. People will believe what they want to believe, I am simply offering my advice and it has to be taken for what it is worth which could be a grain of salt or its weight in gold. Polygraphs are very useful, but Polygraphy is very flawed.
Posted by dimas
- Jul 24, 2004, 06:26 AMThe problem with altering/controling ones breathing pattern lies more in the lack of experience of the examinee than anything else. Most people will usually breath at a regular rate of 12-20 breaths per minute, with tidal volume, rate and rhythm remaining somewhat consistent in the absence of stimulus (I will address this shortly), or hypoxia.
The examinee is already going to be nervous (stimulus) about the polygraph and will in turn have an increased heart rate and a subsequent need to increase his oxygen supply, so his breathing rate will also increase with a decrease in tidal volume, but the rhythm should remain almost the same. An inexperience examinee will more than likely begin to alter the rhythm, tidal volume and rate to a point in which he is 1. stimulating too much of a response(which will tip off the examiner) or 2. Display a rhythm and rate which is out of the norm.
Granted this is not a sure sign of countermeasure use, but enough to tip off an experienced examiner that something is or may be up.
While an examinee with experience or practice may be able to pull it off without being caught most first time examinee's will be too nervous attempting to answer the question, use a mental/physical counter measure and control their breathing all at once. Usually the one they mess up is the breathing because they are trying to breath at a rate, rhythm and volume that their body is not accustomed to and then begin to show very unusual patterns as they and their body attempt to compensate for this.
The examinee is already going to be nervous (stimulus) about the polygraph and will in turn have an increased heart rate and a subsequent need to increase his oxygen supply, so his breathing rate will also increase with a decrease in tidal volume, but the rhythm should remain almost the same. An inexperience examinee will more than likely begin to alter the rhythm, tidal volume and rate to a point in which he is 1. stimulating too much of a response(which will tip off the examiner) or 2. Display a rhythm and rate which is out of the norm.
Granted this is not a sure sign of countermeasure use, but enough to tip off an experienced examiner that something is or may be up.
While an examinee with experience or practice may be able to pull it off without being caught most first time examinee's will be too nervous attempting to answer the question, use a mental/physical counter measure and control their breathing all at once. Usually the one they mess up is the breathing because they are trying to breath at a rate, rhythm and volume that their body is not accustomed to and then begin to show very unusual patterns as they and their body attempt to compensate for this.
Posted by NeutralObserver
- Jul 23, 2004, 03:16 PMDimas, I will ask you what George, and ISBS have both asked, and perhaps you will answer if I ask more politely. What is the basis for your advice on polygraph countermeasures. Can you give us some idea of your expertise on this subject?
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Jul 23, 2004, 05:27 AMQuote from: dimas on Jul 23, 2004, 04:55 AM....a good poly examiner or anyone with a basic understanding of physiology will be able to tell you are altering your breathing pattern, so it should be avoided if possible.
Dimas,
On what basis do you state the above? Of course, the polygraph instrument will record alterations in breathing patterns. But I'm not aware of any evidence that (except for gross distortions such as breathing very slowly or rapidly, or taking very deep or shallow breaths), polygraph examiners can reliably differentiate between voluntarily and involuntarily produced changes in breathing patterns.
The respiratory channels are the only ones that the examinee can directly control. Considering that the scorable breathing reactions are known (see Chapter 4 of TLBTLD,) I see no reason not to exploit them in one's countermeasure strategy.
Posted by dimas
- Jul 23, 2004, 04:55 AMAnxietyguy,
What I was warning against was altering your breathing patterns. The reason is that this is probably the easiest way to detect if you are using counter measures. People's breathing patterns will usually not be as effected by telling a lie, as per se their heart rate or blood pressure. Remember you are more than likely already going to be nervous by using counter measures and your breathing should naturally have a slight deviation from the norm already.
Use the mental counter measure or the good old squeezing the sphincter trick and you should be fine, however, a good poly examiner or anyone with a basic understanding of physiology will be able to tell you are altering your breathing pattern, so it should be avoided if possible.
What I was warning against was altering your breathing patterns. The reason is that this is probably the easiest way to detect if you are using counter measures. People's breathing patterns will usually not be as effected by telling a lie, as per se their heart rate or blood pressure. Remember you are more than likely already going to be nervous by using counter measures and your breathing should naturally have a slight deviation from the norm already.
Use the mental counter measure or the good old squeezing the sphincter trick and you should be fine, however, a good poly examiner or anyone with a basic understanding of physiology will be able to tell you are altering your breathing pattern, so it should be avoided if possible.
Posted by anxietyguy
- Jul 22, 2004, 09:43 PMDimas,
Is it not required to alter your breathing in addition to using a countermeasure as describe in TLBTLD for control questions??? Are u suggesting this is incorrect?Anyone else with info in regards to breathing patterns.What if I maintained normal breathing throughout all questions, but just employed a regular countermeasure for the control question without changing my breathing pattern? Would this be enough to pass.Please help quick!!
Anxiety
Is it not required to alter your breathing in addition to using a countermeasure as describe in TLBTLD for control questions??? Are u suggesting this is incorrect?Anyone else with info in regards to breathing patterns.What if I maintained normal breathing throughout all questions, but just employed a regular countermeasure for the control question without changing my breathing pattern? Would this be enough to pass.Please help quick!!
Anxiety
Posted by dimas
- Jul 20, 2004, 04:08 AMI think it all comes down to what you are most comfortable using. You also may want to make sure that if you do indeed use mental counter-measures that you practice this in the mirror and make sure that your facial expression isn't going to give you away. Many people tend to make some very obvious or odd facial gestures when concentrating or attempting really hard to think about something. Which when answering a yes or no question would be dead give aways that something else was going on in their mind.
You also want to make sure that the counter-measure has a significant enough effect.
The only counter-measure that I would highly advise against is altering your breathing pattern.
You also want to make sure that the counter-measure has a significant enough effect.
The only counter-measure that I would highly advise against is altering your breathing pattern.
Posted by anxietyguy
- Jul 19, 2004, 07:46 PMI take it nobody uses mental countermeasures then?Please my first polygraph ever is in 2 weeks and I need as much info as possible.
Anxiety
Anxiety
Posted by anxietyguy
- Jul 16, 2004, 02:43 PMDavid,
Thanks for the reply, but are you saying that both work equally as good?I am assuming by best approach would be to use mental countermeasures seeing that they may be the hardest to suspect;seeing that polygraphers can't detect countermeasures? Anyone else have sugestions or tips on mental countermeasures?
Thanks,
Anxiety
Thanks for the reply, but are you saying that both work equally as good?I am assuming by best approach would be to use mental countermeasures seeing that they may be the hardest to suspect;seeing that polygraphers can't detect countermeasures?
Anyone else have sugestions or tips on mental countermeasures?Thanks,
Anxiety