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Posted by beech trees
- Jun 07, 2004, 12:56 PMQuote from: Cornelius on Jun 07, 2004, 02:10 AMAfter a lot of consideration I came to the conclusion that the d.a. was unhappy that I refused what I now think of as the "dangling diversion option". When I continued to refuse to plead guilty to something I did not do, he then offered the polygraph/bench trail/diversion option if I lost. Diversion again! I am getting very sick of hearing that word.
If I may offer some objective observations: The District Attorney is interested in one thing only: His ass. Thus, he's interested not in you or your possible guilt or innocence (for those facts are irrelevant to his standing), he is interested only in convicting you. Therefore, any 'deals' or arrangements he makes are aimed at that goal-- thereby boosting his conviction rate by one. Think of him as your worst enemy, the most dangerous person whom you've ever met (I can't think of another way to describe an agent of the government who's sole interest in you is to imprison you). The DA is now playing you; all citizens who are interrogated, charged, or otherwise run afoul of the State are manipulated in this manner-- the State dangles 'a way out', which is nothing more than a venue by which the noose is placed 'round your neck. In this case, the ruse is the polygraph, he plays upon your fears of losing your freedom by dangling the way out ("just take and pass the polygraph, it can only help you, etc.") knowing full well that such an invitation can only bolster his side. Think about it:
If you decline the offer to take a polygraph, he'll use that against you as an indication of guilt.
If you fail the polygraph, he'll use that as an indication of guilt.
If the results are inconclusive, he may in conjunction with your State-sponsered interrogator arbitrarily accuse you of trying to deceive them (countermeasures.)
If you take and pass the polygraph, he MAY drop the charges, but in so doing he's also covering his ass because he's creating a paper trail that protects him should you later be discovered to actually have done whatever is it you're being accused of. "Oh gee, how were we to know she was guilty? She passed our expert polygrapher's interrogation, the box indicated she was innocent, mistakes were made but I'M not the responsible party, my conviction rate still stands at blah blah blah...."
QuoteI believe that he does not want me to turn down these choices and go for a jury trial and is hoping I will accept another choice and not force him into a "to jury or not to jury" decision. He knows, of course, that if I go that route a lot more money is involved for such a ridiculous situation.
Then have your attorney meet with him and tell him you know that. "Look, Mr. DA sir, no one here wants an expensive, lengthy trial by jury that will cost the taxpayers lots of money-- and for what? This case is tenuous at best, and respectfully, when it's concluded in our favour, your office is gong to have a hard time explaining why it chose to go ahead and prosecute this sweet innocent woman in the staggering lack of evidence against her..."
QuoteAnd therein lies the rub. My husband and the money. He knows I am innocent but is a -- shall I be kind and say miser? Sure. Why not.
Good thing he's been miserly all these years-- now is the 'rainy day' for which he's been saving. How much is your freedom/reputation/relationship worth to him? A sufficient amount to bankroll your defense I hope.
QuoteDespite the fact that I was told back in February that it was unlikely this case would go to arraignment, much less to trial, I do believe I have a good attorney.
Respecfully, any defense attorney who advises you to submit to an open-ended interrorgatory session with The State, absent his presence, and knowing full well you're waiving your Fifth Amendment rights, is incompetent.
Dave
Posted by Cornelius
- Jun 07, 2004, 02:10 AMThanks for all your input and especially to Abe for his concern and for calling me "friend". That means a lot.
After a lot of consideration I came to the conclusion that the d.a. was unhappy that I refused what I now think of as the "dangling diversion option". When I continued to refuse to plead guilty to something I did not do, he then offered the polygraph/bench trail/diversion option if I lost. Diversion again! I am getting very sick of hearing that word.
I believe that he does not want me to turn down these choices and go for a jury trial and is hoping I will accept another choice and not force him into a "to jury or not to jury" decision. He knows, of course, that if I go that route a lot more money is involved for such a ridiculous situation.
And therein lies the rub. My husband and the money. He knows I am innocent but is a -- shall I be kind and say miser? Sure. Why not.
Tomorrow evening my writing partner and best friend is coming over to talk with Joel while I am at a Historical Society meeting. When I get back I am hoping things will be under control. Dick has that effect on Joel, thank goodness.
The two big questions are whether I go for a jury trial (and I would like Joel to look into whether the d.a. can drop the charges after I demand said trial) and whether we are going to stick with the present attorney or look for another one.
Despite the fact that I was told back in February that it was unlikely this case would go to arraignment, much less to trial, I do believe I have a good attorney. On the other hand, Joel was expecting results sooner and is thinking we have overpaid. I am rather stuck in the middle in a sense because Joel is a control freak but is not talking directly to Mark (atty) about this but is only stressing me out more and more every day.
So, that is my story and I am sorry if I rambled on. It has been the worst six months (almost) of my life and no end in sight as yet.
Any comments would be welcome and, if you wish, I will keep you informed.
After a lot of consideration I came to the conclusion that the d.a. was unhappy that I refused what I now think of as the "dangling diversion option". When I continued to refuse to plead guilty to something I did not do, he then offered the polygraph/bench trail/diversion option if I lost. Diversion again! I am getting very sick of hearing that word.
I believe that he does not want me to turn down these choices and go for a jury trial and is hoping I will accept another choice and not force him into a "to jury or not to jury" decision. He knows, of course, that if I go that route a lot more money is involved for such a ridiculous situation.
And therein lies the rub. My husband and the money. He knows I am innocent but is a -- shall I be kind and say miser? Sure. Why not.
Tomorrow evening my writing partner and best friend is coming over to talk with Joel while I am at a Historical Society meeting. When I get back I am hoping things will be under control. Dick has that effect on Joel, thank goodness.
The two big questions are whether I go for a jury trial (and I would like Joel to look into whether the d.a. can drop the charges after I demand said trial) and whether we are going to stick with the present attorney or look for another one.
Despite the fact that I was told back in February that it was unlikely this case would go to arraignment, much less to trial, I do believe I have a good attorney. On the other hand, Joel was expecting results sooner and is thinking we have overpaid. I am rather stuck in the middle in a sense because Joel is a control freak but is not talking directly to Mark (atty) about this but is only stressing me out more and more every day.
So, that is my story and I am sorry if I rambled on. It has been the worst six months (almost) of my life and no end in sight as yet.
Any comments would be welcome and, if you wish, I will keep you informed.
Posted by abraham
- Jun 05, 2004, 05:11 AMConfused and concerned:
Take comfort in knowing there have been many in your same position, having hurt no one but still uncertain as to the reasonableness of taking a polygraph examination. You probably feel uncomfortable firing your attorney as suggested by others just because he has confidence in the use of the polygraph and believes that it is a valid and accurate indicator of deception. And you are probably wrestling with the fact that you have obviously placed some trust (even though it may be minor) in the DA even though others have encouraged you to believe that he has an evil plan to destroy your life. And he might--but sort of unlikely. Let me just suggest something here if I may. I can see from your writing that you are leaning in a certain direction with this thing (still concerned but a little less confused ). Trust your feelings. And keep in mind that it's quite normal to be concerned about something like this--because it's a very serious deal. Just don't make the confusion part worse again. Make a plan according to how you feel right now and stick with it! If you can do that, you will always have confidence knowing that you did your best to resolve this issue for yourself regardless of the outcome. (Just like mom used to say.)
The very best of luck to you my friend. I would like to hear how you did. Please respond back here if you feel okay about it.
Abe
Take comfort in knowing there have been many in your same position, having hurt no one but still uncertain as to the reasonableness of taking a polygraph examination. You probably feel uncomfortable firing your attorney as suggested by others just because he has confidence in the use of the polygraph and believes that it is a valid and accurate indicator of deception. And you are probably wrestling with the fact that you have obviously placed some trust (even though it may be minor) in the DA even though others have encouraged you to believe that he has an evil plan to destroy your life. And he might--but sort of unlikely. Let me just suggest something here if I may. I can see from your writing that you are leaning in a certain direction with this thing (still concerned but a little less confused ). Trust your feelings. And keep in mind that it's quite normal to be concerned about something like this--because it's a very serious deal. Just don't make the confusion part worse again. Make a plan according to how you feel right now and stick with it! If you can do that, you will always have confidence knowing that you did your best to resolve this issue for yourself regardless of the outcome. (Just like mom used to say.)
The very best of luck to you my friend. I would like to hear how you did. Please respond back here if you feel okay about it.
Abe
Posted by polys r bs
- Jun 03, 2004, 08:13 PMJust a note to ANYBODY who is considering taking a polygraph for any reason... DON'T!!!!
Recently my husbands daughter accused him of sexual abuse. The only thing is my husband had NO contact with his daughter before she was abandoned by her mother and ended up living in my home for a few months. At that time my HUSBAND was living and working in another county!! There was no oportunity for him to abuse his daughter. Everybody knows this even the polygrapher stated "This guys does not present himself as somebody with something to hide." However, since the peaks on the last few questions on the polygraph were higher than the control question, he FAILED the polygraph. Who would not get irritable after being asked the same questions at least 5 times over and over, especially questions such as "Did you touch you daughters breast?" (Hello a 7 year old girl DOES NOT HAVE BREASTS!!!) and my husband does not have arms that reach over 100 miles! Yet we spent $400 for a private polygraph and the results were BARELY even noticable on the printout sheet from the polygraph machine (I seen them myself)
What a learning experience this has been. It would be a COLD DAY IN HELL before I took one of these tests even if they just wanted to see if I was giving them my real name. I have to agree about them being JUNK just expensive JUNK!
Recently my husbands daughter accused him of sexual abuse. The only thing is my husband had NO contact with his daughter before she was abandoned by her mother and ended up living in my home for a few months. At that time my HUSBAND was living and working in another county!! There was no oportunity for him to abuse his daughter. Everybody knows this even the polygrapher stated "This guys does not present himself as somebody with something to hide." However, since the peaks on the last few questions on the polygraph were higher than the control question, he FAILED the polygraph. Who would not get irritable after being asked the same questions at least 5 times over and over, especially questions such as "Did you touch you daughters breast?" (Hello a 7 year old girl DOES NOT HAVE BREASTS!!!) and my husband does not have arms that reach over 100 miles! Yet we spent $400 for a private polygraph and the results were BARELY even noticable on the printout sheet from the polygraph machine (I seen them myself)
What a learning experience this has been. It would be a COLD DAY IN HELL before I took one of these tests even if they just wanted to see if I was giving them my real name. I have to agree about them being JUNK just expensive JUNK!
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Jun 01, 2004, 02:11 PMCornelius,
Even under the conditions you have explained, I think it would be wise to refuse the polygraph. The D.A. appears to be pinning his hopes on the polygraph interrogation producing a damaging admission or confession from you.
In addtion, your lawyer's reference to "people who don't test well" bespeaks his ignorance with regard to polygraphy. Again, polygraphic lie detection is completely without scientific basis. It is meaningless to speak of people who do or do not "test well."
Even under the conditions you have explained, I think it would be wise to refuse the polygraph. The D.A. appears to be pinning his hopes on the polygraph interrogation producing a damaging admission or confession from you.
In addtion, your lawyer's reference to "people who don't test well" bespeaks his ignorance with regard to polygraphy. Again, polygraphic lie detection is completely without scientific basis. It is meaningless to speak of people who do or do not "test well."
Posted by Cornelius
- Jun 01, 2004, 03:28 AMHi.
Just got home and read your posts.
I have not actually signed anything at all regarding the stipulation.
My attorney told me that I had been offered diversion again and that if I went to a bench trial and did not win, they were willing to offer my that choice yet again! He advised me against pleading guilty to anything I did not do. I agreed with this and the next thing I knew the d.a. was offering to admit a polygraph as evidence if I passed it. On the other hand, my attorney says that if I am one of the people who don't test well, we do not have to enter it at all and are back to square one.
Am I making any sense? I keep feeling that I will wake up any minute and that this has been the longest and worst nightmare of my life.
Just got home and read your posts.
I have not actually signed anything at all regarding the stipulation.
My attorney told me that I had been offered diversion again and that if I went to a bench trial and did not win, they were willing to offer my that choice yet again! He advised me against pleading guilty to anything I did not do. I agreed with this and the next thing I knew the d.a. was offering to admit a polygraph as evidence if I passed it. On the other hand, my attorney says that if I am one of the people who don't test well, we do not have to enter it at all and are back to square one.
Am I making any sense? I keep feeling that I will wake up any minute and that this has been the longest and worst nightmare of my life.
Posted by Kona
- May 31, 2004, 05:53 PMQuote from: Cornelius on May 30, 2004, 10:58 PMI was offered a chance to plea guilty to something I did not do and refused. After that the d.a. told my attorney that if I took and passed a polygraph test, he would stipulate it as evidence at a bench trial. (I hope I used the correct wording there.)
Cornelius,
So the DA offered you the chance to plea guilty? How generous of him. Has your attorney been advising you during all of this? You act as if the DA is doing you a favor by "allowing" you to take a polygraph, and then stipulate it as evidence at a bench trial. DON'T DO IT. The polygraph is crackpot science, and your chances of "passing" are about the same as tossing a coin in the air, and calling heads.
George is correct. The DA is fishing. If he had enough evidence to convict, the polygraph wouldn't have even been mentioned. He would prosecute you immediately based on what he had. Maybe it's time to look for a new lawyer?
Best of luck to you.
Kona
Posted by isbs
- May 31, 2004, 04:36 PMQuote from: George W. Maschke on May 31, 2004, 02:20 AMCornelius,
I think it was a mistake for you to agree to submit to a polygraph "test" and that you should promptly cancel it. (You can explain your decision by mentioning what you have learned about polygraph testing since your initial agreement.)
Polygraphic lie detection has no scientific basis whatsoever. Telling the truth is no guarantee that you will pass. Moreover, polygrapher bias may influence the result; if the polygrapher thinks you're guilty, your failure may be foreordained.
It is also foolhardy (in my opinion) to agree in advance that the results of a polygraph "test" will be admissible as "evidence" in a court of law. The fact that the D.A. would agree to such an arrangement strongly suggests that the case against you is very weak to begin with. Think about it: if the D.A. thought he could get a conviction with the available evidence, why doesn't he just proceed on that basis? In all likelihood, he's hoping that you'll fail and that he can use that to bolster his case. The fact that your lawyer would advise you to sign such a stipulation agreement suggests to me that he is incompetent and that you should perhaps seek new legal counsel.
See The Lie Behind the Lie Detector for more on polygraphy before you decide on what course of action to pursue. Chapters 1 and 3 will be of special interest.
If you decide against my advice and to go ahead with the polygraph, then I suggest that you not use countermeasures but instead try the "complete honesty" approach outlined in Chapter 4 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector. You have posted enough information about yourself that your polygrapher may have identified you. Numerous polygraphers read this message board, and if yours has identified you, he may well arbitrarily accuse you of countermeasure use.
If you do go through with the polygraph, you should also insist that the entire procedure be video- and/or audio-recorded from beginning to end, and you should not stay for any post-test interrogation.
By the way, the heckler who posted here as "ISBS" (and who has also posted as "I-Smell-BS" and "I-Smell-BS-2" is an example of the kind of creep you may come face-to-face with should you go through with this polygraph "test."
I wish you all the best in what must be very stressful times.
CREEP, CREEP, CREEP..... I'M CREEPING UP ON YOU JUST LIKE WE DID ON GEORGIE BOY WHEN WE CAUGHT HIM LYING ON BOTH OF HIS POLYGRAPH TESTS.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- May 31, 2004, 02:20 AMCornelius,
I think it was a mistake for you to agree to submit to a polygraph "test" and that you should promptly cancel it. (You can explain your decision by mentioning what you have learned about polygraph testing since your initial agreement.)
Polygraphic lie detection has no scientific basis whatsoever. Telling the truth is no guarantee that you will pass. Moreover, polygrapher bias may influence the result; if the polygrapher thinks you're guilty, your failure may be foreordained.
It is also foolhardy (in my opinion) to agree in advance that the results of a polygraph "test" will be admissible as "evidence" in a court of law. The fact that the D.A. would agree to such an arrangement strongly suggests that the case against you is very weak to begin with. Think about it: if the D.A. thought he could get a conviction with the available evidence, why doesn't he just proceed on that basis? In all likelihood, he's hoping that you'll fail and that he can use that to bolster his case. The fact that your lawyer would advise you to sign such a stipulation agreement suggests to me that he is incompetent and that you should perhaps seek new legal counsel.
See The Lie Behind the Lie Detector for more on polygraphy before you decide on what course of action to pursue. Chapters 1 and 3 will be of special interest.
If you decide against my advice and to go ahead with the polygraph, then I suggest that you not use countermeasures but instead try the "complete honesty" approach outlined in Chapter 4 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector. You have posted enough information about yourself that your polygrapher may have identified you. Numerous polygraphers read this message board, and if yours has identified you, he may well arbitrarily accuse you of countermeasure use.
If you do go through with the polygraph, you should also insist that the entire procedure be video- and/or audio-recorded from beginning to end, and you should not stay for any post-test interrogation.
By the way, the heckler who posted here as "ISBS" (and who has also posted as "I-Smell-BS" and "I-Smell-BS-2" is an example of the kind of creep you may come face-to-face with should you go through with this polygraph "test."
I wish you all the best in what must be very stressful times.
I think it was a mistake for you to agree to submit to a polygraph "test" and that you should promptly cancel it. (You can explain your decision by mentioning what you have learned about polygraph testing since your initial agreement.)
Polygraphic lie detection has no scientific basis whatsoever. Telling the truth is no guarantee that you will pass. Moreover, polygrapher bias may influence the result; if the polygrapher thinks you're guilty, your failure may be foreordained.
It is also foolhardy (in my opinion) to agree in advance that the results of a polygraph "test" will be admissible as "evidence" in a court of law. The fact that the D.A. would agree to such an arrangement strongly suggests that the case against you is very weak to begin with. Think about it: if the D.A. thought he could get a conviction with the available evidence, why doesn't he just proceed on that basis? In all likelihood, he's hoping that you'll fail and that he can use that to bolster his case. The fact that your lawyer would advise you to sign such a stipulation agreement suggests to me that he is incompetent and that you should perhaps seek new legal counsel.
See The Lie Behind the Lie Detector for more on polygraphy before you decide on what course of action to pursue. Chapters 1 and 3 will be of special interest.
If you decide against my advice and to go ahead with the polygraph, then I suggest that you not use countermeasures but instead try the "complete honesty" approach outlined in Chapter 4 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector. You have posted enough information about yourself that your polygrapher may have identified you. Numerous polygraphers read this message board, and if yours has identified you, he may well arbitrarily accuse you of countermeasure use.
If you do go through with the polygraph, you should also insist that the entire procedure be video- and/or audio-recorded from beginning to end, and you should not stay for any post-test interrogation.
By the way, the heckler who posted here as "ISBS" (and who has also posted as "I-Smell-BS" and "I-Smell-BS-2" is an example of the kind of creep you may come face-to-face with should you go through with this polygraph "test."
I wish you all the best in what must be very stressful times.
Posted by ISBS
- May 30, 2004, 11:40 PMQuote from: Cornelius on May 30, 2004, 10:58 PMI have been reading and reading and I am even more confused than I was before.
That describes everyone on this site with the possible exception of Triple Excrement, (he is the resident know-it-all).
Posted by Cornelius
- May 30, 2004, 10:58 PMI have been reading and reading and I am even more confused than I was before. Maybe somebody can un-confuse me.
I was arrested for something I absolutely did not do. I can give you the details if that would help but the broad picture is that my attorney believed the d.a. would drop charges based on my background, the circumstances which could be explained and the number of character references I provided from outstanding members of my community who know me well enough that they are willing to go to trial on my behalf.
I was offered a chance to plea guilty to something I did not do and refused. After that the d.a. told my attorney that if I took and passed a polygraph test, he would stipulate it as evidence at a bench trial. (I hope I used the correct wording there.)
My test is coming up very soon and I am so confused about the counter-measure thing. On one hand, my inclination is to tell the truth about everything including that, of course I have told a lie to get out of trouble in my life. Who hasn't. But that seems to go against the counter-measure technique.
Also, I am exceedingly stressed out right now for reasons beyond the obvious one. A sister who was diagnosed with cancer and a husband who, although he knows absolutely that I am innocent, freaks out at the thought of having to pay more money for a jury trial if I fail this test.
Basically, I guess I want to know if stress is going to be a factor even when it is not case related and whether I am better off using counter-measures or just simply telling the truth from beginning to end.
Can anybody help me here? I am the kind of person who never got sent to the principal's office or had a moving violation in her life so this horrible nightmare is something I simply don't know how to deal with.
I was arrested for something I absolutely did not do. I can give you the details if that would help but the broad picture is that my attorney believed the d.a. would drop charges based on my background, the circumstances which could be explained and the number of character references I provided from outstanding members of my community who know me well enough that they are willing to go to trial on my behalf.
I was offered a chance to plea guilty to something I did not do and refused. After that the d.a. told my attorney that if I took and passed a polygraph test, he would stipulate it as evidence at a bench trial. (I hope I used the correct wording there.)
My test is coming up very soon and I am so confused about the counter-measure thing. On one hand, my inclination is to tell the truth about everything including that, of course I have told a lie to get out of trouble in my life. Who hasn't. But that seems to go against the counter-measure technique.
Also, I am exceedingly stressed out right now for reasons beyond the obvious one. A sister who was diagnosed with cancer and a husband who, although he knows absolutely that I am innocent, freaks out at the thought of having to pay more money for a jury trial if I fail this test.
Basically, I guess I want to know if stress is going to be a factor even when it is not case related and whether I am better off using counter-measures or just simply telling the truth from beginning to end.
Can anybody help me here? I am the kind of person who never got sent to the principal's office or had a moving violation in her life so this horrible nightmare is something I simply don't know how to deal with.