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A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by Darren Jensen
- May 18, 2004, 09:19 PMQuote from: anxietyguy on May 18, 2004, 03:06 PMDarren,
Thanks for the info on the breathing.I take it you just used the mental countermeasure instead of the physcial?Or did you combine them both?
-Anxiety
I used both the physical and mental, and found that if I just used the mental the physical kicked in automatically. You may want to practice a bit to make sure it works the same for you, though. I began both directly after the appropriate question, and continued for 10 seconds. Like the article says, make sure you end before the next question is answered.
Most important: Make sure you know WHEN to use the process, i.e. after what type of question.
Posted by anxietyguy
- May 18, 2004, 03:06 PMDarren,
Thanks for the info on the breathing.I take it you just used the mental countermeasure instead of the physcial?Or did you combine them both?
-Anxiety
Thanks for the info on the breathing.I take it you just used the mental countermeasure instead of the physcial?Or did you combine them both?
-Anxiety
Posted by Darren Jensen
- May 18, 2004, 04:44 AMQuote from: anxietyguy on May 16, 2004, 04:57 PMOfficerWannabe,
Just wondering if you did employ countermeasures to the control questions.Also George I was wondering would it still be possible to pass without changing your breathing pattern on the control questions, and just use a physical countermeasure in lieu of.After reading TLBTLD I am still not clear on the breathing techniques and how to correctly employ them.I feel that I may screw them up and be detected.Any help on the easiest breathing technique??
I recently took a test and passed. Here's what I did, in a nutshell:
1. Breathing techniques
a. Baseline breathing - Based on what I read, I breathed normally at one breath (in and out) every two seconds. So one second to breath in, one to breath out.
b. Starting directly after a question that I needed to emphasize my respone to, I raised my breathing rate to one breath in and out every 1.5 seconds or so. Continue for 10 seconds or so, in conjunction with 2. b. below.
2. Mental status
a. When a question comes up that I needed a low (normal response) on mentally (which helps your sweat rate, heart rate, etc.) I thought about how a tree moves in the wind. Sometimes I also thought about how tall grasses moves in the wind. I just picked something that calmed me.
b. If I came across a question that I needed to emphasize my response to, I thought of a car crashing through a gard rail and plunging off a cliff.
Very simple stuff. Very simple. Just make sure you understand exactly when to do what.
I had just about three hours of preparation time, in total, before I was able to pass my first polygraph. And I had to lie on every relevant question there was.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- May 17, 2004, 03:34 AMOfficerWannabe,
Yes, a couple hours is a more typical duration for a polygraph examination. The cursory nature of the "test" that was administered to you may have affected the outcome, but even the most scrupulously performed polygraph examination done to the standards generally accepted by the polygraph community has no validity and is without diagnostic value.
It is standard procedure for polygraphers to run more than one polygraph chart; your polygrapher's after-the-fact assertion that the first chart collection was just a "practice" round was an expedient lie (perhaps intended to prevent you from worrying that the procedure was being repeated because there was a "problem" the first time, which might make a false positive result more likely).
You will find polygraph countermeasures explained in Chapter 4 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector, but be sure to read Chapter 3, which explains polygraph procedure, first. Only a few questions in a series will be "control" questions -- the rest will be relevant or irrelevant. To pass, you want to produce stronger reactions to the "control" questions than to the relevant questions. The irrelevant questions are not scored. (Some polygraphers will deliberately describe them as "control" questions in an attempt to deceive would-be countermeasure users.)
Yes, a couple hours is a more typical duration for a polygraph examination. The cursory nature of the "test" that was administered to you may have affected the outcome, but even the most scrupulously performed polygraph examination done to the standards generally accepted by the polygraph community has no validity and is without diagnostic value.
It is standard procedure for polygraphers to run more than one polygraph chart; your polygrapher's after-the-fact assertion that the first chart collection was just a "practice" round was an expedient lie (perhaps intended to prevent you from worrying that the procedure was being repeated because there was a "problem" the first time, which might make a false positive result more likely).
You will find polygraph countermeasures explained in Chapter 4 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector, but be sure to read Chapter 3, which explains polygraph procedure, first. Only a few questions in a series will be "control" questions -- the rest will be relevant or irrelevant. To pass, you want to produce stronger reactions to the "control" questions than to the relevant questions. The irrelevant questions are not scored. (Some polygraphers will deliberately describe them as "control" questions in an attempt to deceive would-be countermeasure users.)
Posted by OfficerWannabe
- May 16, 2004, 11:25 PMHi George,
Thanks for the reply. I don't believe Mr. Evans was the one who administered the poly. I don't remember the man's name, but this guy was in his mid 40's and I'm under the impression that Mr. Evans is an older gentleman.
I too, thought that 45 minutes was pretty short. All of my reaearch seems to indicate that a poly should last a couple hours, correct?
So, if most of the questions appear to be relevant questions, how does one approach this? Will countermeasures need to be used nearly the entire time? Any suggestions? George, do you think that being "chart-rolled" had anything to do with my failing? Also, why do you think the ploygrapher went through the questions twice?
To answer anxietyguy's question, no I didn't use countermeasures. At the time, I was aware that there were ways to decieve the machine, but I didn't know what they were. And quite honestly, I was too scared to try and use any. I was afraid of being caught, so I didn't even bother to learn what the techniques were. Well, I'm not going to be that naive again.
Thanks,
OfficerWannabe
Thanks for the reply. I don't believe Mr. Evans was the one who administered the poly. I don't remember the man's name, but this guy was in his mid 40's and I'm under the impression that Mr. Evans is an older gentleman.
I too, thought that 45 minutes was pretty short. All of my reaearch seems to indicate that a poly should last a couple hours, correct?
So, if most of the questions appear to be relevant questions, how does one approach this? Will countermeasures need to be used nearly the entire time? Any suggestions? George, do you think that being "chart-rolled" had anything to do with my failing? Also, why do you think the ploygrapher went through the questions twice?
To answer anxietyguy's question, no I didn't use countermeasures. At the time, I was aware that there were ways to decieve the machine, but I didn't know what they were. And quite honestly, I was too scared to try and use any. I was afraid of being caught, so I didn't even bother to learn what the techniques were. Well, I'm not going to be that naive again.
Thanks,
OfficerWannabe
Posted by PI
- May 16, 2004, 10:28 PMTriple Excrement help this anxious little pussy. After all, you are George's biggest cheerleader and the board's official big mouth KNOWITALL. 
Posted by anxietyguy
- May 16, 2004, 04:57 PMOfficerWannabe,
Just wondering if you did employ countermeasures to the control questions.Also George I was wondering would it still be possible to pass without changing your breathing pattern on the control questions, and just use a physical countermeasure in lieu of.After reading TLBTLD I am still not clear on the breathing techniques and how to correctly employ them.I feel that I may screw them up and be detected.Any help on the easiest breathing technique??
Just wondering if you did employ countermeasures to the control questions.Also George I was wondering would it still be possible to pass without changing your breathing pattern on the control questions, and just use a physical countermeasure in lieu of.After reading TLBTLD I am still not clear on the breathing techniques and how to correctly employ them.I feel that I may screw them up and be detected.Any help on the easiest breathing technique?
?Posted by George W. Maschke
- May 16, 2004, 08:21 AMOfficerWannabe,
I have heard of Polytech Associates, and its operator, William D. (Bill) Evans, before. Evans has been mentioned in a couple news articles previously cited on AntiPolygraph.org:
http://antipolygraph.org/news/polygraph-news-018.shtml#wallace-01-10-03
http://antipolygraph.org/news/polygraph-news-019.shtml#bobby-01-12-2003
Forty-five minutes is a pretty short period of time for a polygraph examination; many in the polygraph community disparagingly refer to polygraphers who administer such hurried examinations as "chart rollers." Was it Bill Evans himself who polygraphed you?
Of the questions you listed, I see only two probable-lie "control" questions: "Are you concealing information about...
- Having told an important lie.
- Having stolen anything."
Your polygrapher should have been able to score your polygraph charts on the spot -- it only takes a few minutes. If your polygrapher believed that he had not obtained a "clean" polygraph chart, he could have done a new chart collection right then and there.
The polygrapher's assertion that you "displayed controlled and irregular breathing during the exam" seems like an indirect accusation that you employed polygraph countermeasures. This could indeed pose a problem if you are re-polygraphed by Polytech Associates.
I think that you have little choice but to mention your previous application for employment to the agency with which you are applying now. It is quite possible, if not likely, that agencies within the area share information with one another. Thus, failing to mention your previous application could potentially result in disqualification.
I have heard of Polytech Associates, and its operator, William D. (Bill) Evans, before. Evans has been mentioned in a couple news articles previously cited on AntiPolygraph.org:
http://antipolygraph.org/news/polygraph-news-018.shtml#wallace-01-10-03
http://antipolygraph.org/news/polygraph-news-019.shtml#bobby-01-12-2003
Forty-five minutes is a pretty short period of time for a polygraph examination; many in the polygraph community disparagingly refer to polygraphers who administer such hurried examinations as "chart rollers." Was it Bill Evans himself who polygraphed you?
Of the questions you listed, I see only two probable-lie "control" questions: "Are you concealing information about...
- Having told an important lie.
- Having stolen anything."
Your polygrapher should have been able to score your polygraph charts on the spot -- it only takes a few minutes. If your polygrapher believed that he had not obtained a "clean" polygraph chart, he could have done a new chart collection right then and there.
The polygrapher's assertion that you "displayed controlled and irregular breathing during the exam" seems like an indirect accusation that you employed polygraph countermeasures. This could indeed pose a problem if you are re-polygraphed by Polytech Associates.
I think that you have little choice but to mention your previous application for employment to the agency with which you are applying now. It is quite possible, if not likely, that agencies within the area share information with one another. Thus, failing to mention your previous application could potentially result in disqualification.
Posted by OfficerWannabe
- May 15, 2004, 09:02 PMHi all,
I wish I had visited this site before taking my first poly about 5 months ago. :-/
Anyway, I didn't pass that poly and I would like to summarize my experience and then ask some questions about the test.
I took my poly at a place called Polytech Associates, located in Akron, Ohio. Anyone ever hear of it? During the pre-test interview I went over all the expected/routine questions. The examiner also gave me his shpeel and blah, blah, blah, I'll know when you're lying to me, etc.
However, from everything that I have read about what happens during the exam, this is where my experience takes another path. The examiner never performed a "base-line test" or whatever it's called, where he has you pick a card or a number, etc.
After the pre-test interview, he left the room for about ten minutes. During that time I just sat in my chair and thought about the current situation, while struggling to remain awake (I assumed that I was being watched, so I just sat quietly). He came back in, hooked me up to the machine and asked his questions. When he was finished, he said,
"Okay, that was just a test/practice round. Now, we're going to perform the actual test. Before we start, is there anything that you have a question about or anything you want to get off your chest?"
I told him no, and he proceeded to give the "actual" test. Once he finished asking his questions, he unhooked me from the machine, told me it would be about two weeks before I would know the results. That was it. The whole process from start to finish was about 45 minutes.
At no point did the examiner ask me if I was having problems with any of the questions and there was no post-test interview.
To my best recolection, all or nearly all of the questions took the following form:
"Are you concealing information about.....(fill in the blank).
- Illegal drug use.
- Having told an important lie.
- Having stolen anything.
- Having commited a sex crime.
- Having commited a murder.
- Having used a gun in a crime.
- Having committed insurance/credit card fraud.
- Your driving record.
- Being arrested.
There were more questions, but I can't remember them. There may have also been one or two "Other than what we discussed...." questions. Anyway, I think every question was answered with a "No." It seemed like only a few of the questions were "control" and most were "relevant". Am I wrong about this?
I found it strange that quite a few of the questions from the questionarie were never asked during the actual poly. Also, why didn't he know the results of the poly after administering it? Is it usual to wait two weeks for the results? Why was the "test" giving twice in a row? Has anyone else had an experience similar to mine, or perhaps have been "tested" by this company?
About two weeks later, I received a simple form letter from the police dept. that I had failed to pass the polygraph and was no longer under consideration. When I called to ask for a specific reason why I failed, I was told that "the poly examiner stated that I displayed controlled and irregular breathing during the exam and that a "clean" poly wasn't obtained and retesting would be necessary." They don't retest at this particular dept.
It's funny that breathing wasn't even on my mind during the test. I was nervous about taking the poly, but I also fully expected to pass it, as well. Needless to say, I was doumbfounded by the results.
Well, I'm expecting to be tested again in about three weeks for another dept., and I'm almost positive that I'll be going to the same place for testing (nearly all the depts. in the Cleveland/Akron area use this company). That has me a bit nervous and here's why. Not only is there the chance that this place will remember me, but they probably still have my first test on record. If they do, then won't they know if I answer differently during the pre-test interview? Also, I haven't turned in my BI paperwork. One question on it is "Have you ever applied with any other LE agencies. If so, were you accepted and if not, why?" I feel very apprehensive about admitted on parer that I failed a poly with another local police dept. Im seriously considering not even mentioning it.
I want to go to this poly well prepared and armed with the right tools to pass. I'm an honest, good guy and I won't allow some BS ploygraph to destroy my goals and aspirations a second time.
Any comments or insight on this would be really appreciated.
Thanks,
OfficerWannabe
I wish I had visited this site before taking my first poly about 5 months ago. :-/
Anyway, I didn't pass that poly and I would like to summarize my experience and then ask some questions about the test.
I took my poly at a place called Polytech Associates, located in Akron, Ohio. Anyone ever hear of it? During the pre-test interview I went over all the expected/routine questions. The examiner also gave me his shpeel and blah, blah, blah, I'll know when you're lying to me, etc.
However, from everything that I have read about what happens during the exam, this is where my experience takes another path. The examiner never performed a "base-line test" or whatever it's called, where he has you pick a card or a number, etc.
After the pre-test interview, he left the room for about ten minutes. During that time I just sat in my chair and thought about the current situation, while struggling to remain awake (I assumed that I was being watched, so I just sat quietly). He came back in, hooked me up to the machine and asked his questions. When he was finished, he said,
"Okay, that was just a test/practice round. Now, we're going to perform the actual test. Before we start, is there anything that you have a question about or anything you want to get off your chest?"
I told him no, and he proceeded to give the "actual" test. Once he finished asking his questions, he unhooked me from the machine, told me it would be about two weeks before I would know the results. That was it. The whole process from start to finish was about 45 minutes.
At no point did the examiner ask me if I was having problems with any of the questions and there was no post-test interview.
To my best recolection, all or nearly all of the questions took the following form:
"Are you concealing information about.....(fill in the blank).
- Illegal drug use.
- Having told an important lie.
- Having stolen anything.
- Having commited a sex crime.
- Having commited a murder.
- Having used a gun in a crime.
- Having committed insurance/credit card fraud.
- Your driving record.
- Being arrested.
There were more questions, but I can't remember them. There may have also been one or two "Other than what we discussed...." questions. Anyway, I think every question was answered with a "No." It seemed like only a few of the questions were "control" and most were "relevant". Am I wrong about this?
I found it strange that quite a few of the questions from the questionarie were never asked during the actual poly. Also, why didn't he know the results of the poly after administering it? Is it usual to wait two weeks for the results? Why was the "test" giving twice in a row? Has anyone else had an experience similar to mine, or perhaps have been "tested" by this company?
About two weeks later, I received a simple form letter from the police dept. that I had failed to pass the polygraph and was no longer under consideration. When I called to ask for a specific reason why I failed, I was told that "the poly examiner stated that I displayed controlled and irregular breathing during the exam and that a "clean" poly wasn't obtained and retesting would be necessary." They don't retest at this particular dept.
It's funny that breathing wasn't even on my mind during the test. I was nervous about taking the poly, but I also fully expected to pass it, as well. Needless to say, I was doumbfounded by the results.
Well, I'm expecting to be tested again in about three weeks for another dept., and I'm almost positive that I'll be going to the same place for testing (nearly all the depts. in the Cleveland/Akron area use this company). That has me a bit nervous and here's why. Not only is there the chance that this place will remember me, but they probably still have my first test on record. If they do, then won't they know if I answer differently during the pre-test interview? Also, I haven't turned in my BI paperwork. One question on it is "Have you ever applied with any other LE agencies. If so, were you accepted and if not, why?" I feel very apprehensive about admitted on parer that I failed a poly with another local police dept. Im seriously considering not even mentioning it.
I want to go to this poly well prepared and armed with the right tools to pass. I'm an honest, good guy and I won't allow some BS ploygraph to destroy my goals and aspirations a second time.
Any comments or insight on this would be really appreciated.
Thanks,
OfficerWannabe