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Posted by brumbe
- Oct 19, 2004, 11:11 AMIt seemed to me that my examiner stuck to the Probable lie format. It was obvious that some of the questions were probable lie and some were specific ones that were easier to be more certain about.
I didn't try any CM's, but I could feel myself naturally reacting to the probable lie questions. Then, when I came to a relevant question, I felt much more calm.
I think this site helped in letting me know that the examiners expect a reaction to probable lie questions because of the uncertain nature of what they ask. Knowing this made it easier for me to calm down when I got the relevant questions. I wasn't still stressing about whether I really had told a lie while in college or started a rumor about someone.
My examiner seemed pretty reasonable. I didn't feel like I needed any special tricks to get through the process. I guess alot of how polygraphs go depends on who you get as an examiner.
I didn't try any CM's, but I could feel myself naturally reacting to the probable lie questions. Then, when I came to a relevant question, I felt much more calm.
I think this site helped in letting me know that the examiners expect a reaction to probable lie questions because of the uncertain nature of what they ask. Knowing this made it easier for me to calm down when I got the relevant questions. I wasn't still stressing about whether I really had told a lie while in college or started a rumor about someone.
My examiner seemed pretty reasonable. I didn't feel like I needed any special tricks to get through the process. I guess alot of how polygraphs go depends on who you get as an examiner.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Oct 18, 2004, 06:04 PMbrumbe,
Thank you for sharing that. I am glad that you encountered no retaliation for your candor and hope that this precedent might herald a change in practice throughout the FBI polygraph program.
After your admission, did your polygrapher just go ahead with the standard probable-lie CQT format that the Bureau uses for pre-employment screening? (To follow the script of DoDPI's Law Enforcement Pre-Employment Test document with someone who has admitted having researched polygraphy would be rather farcical.) Did she switch to a relevant/irrelevant technique?
Thank you for sharing that. I am glad that you encountered no retaliation for your candor and hope that this precedent might herald a change in practice throughout the FBI polygraph program.
After your admission, did your polygrapher just go ahead with the standard probable-lie CQT format that the Bureau uses for pre-employment screening? (To follow the script of DoDPI's Law Enforcement Pre-Employment Test document with someone who has admitted having researched polygraphy would be rather farcical.) Did she switch to a relevant/irrelevant technique?
Posted by brumbe
- Oct 18, 2004, 05:42 PMMy polygraph was with the FBI.
The examiner asked if I had researched polygraphs. I told her I had and explained to her the stuff I'd read (including stuff at this site.) She then told me that the polygraph doesn't tell whether I'm lying, but it tells my physiological reactions. She said that I could beat a polygraph, but it would take alot of practice.
Then, during the exam she asked me if I intended to deceive her on the test. I answered, "no". It wasn't a fun experience, but it also wasn't as bad as I thought it would be.
The examiner asked if I had researched polygraphs. I told her I had and explained to her the stuff I'd read (including stuff at this site.) She then told me that the polygraph doesn't tell whether I'm lying, but it tells my physiological reactions. She said that I could beat a polygraph, but it would take alot of practice.
Then, during the exam she asked me if I intended to deceive her on the test. I answered, "no". It wasn't a fun experience, but it also wasn't as bad as I thought it would be.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Sep 24, 2004, 04:45 PMQuote from: brumbe on Sep 24, 2004, 02:04 PMTungsten,
You need to talk to a few more people. I admitted knowing about the polygraph and passed.
That's good to hear. What agency was your polygraph with? What was your polygrapher's response when you admitted your knowledge of polygraphy?
Posted by brumbe
- Sep 24, 2004, 02:04 PMTungsten,
You need to talk to a few more people. I admitted knowing about the polygraph and passed.
You need to talk to a few more people. I admitted knowing about the polygraph and passed.
Posted by beech trees
- Sep 26, 2001, 02:08 PMQuote from: tungsten on Sep 26, 2001, 12:54 PM
Thanks to everyone who replied.
I think I have to clarify that I do not intend to denigrate the tester or polygraphy in general; instead, I will tell him/her truthfully what I know about the testing procedure and that it's likely my knowledge will affect the outcome.
While I may disagree with polygraph testing, my intent is not to deceive the FBI, nor do I feel that the government/FBI is an adversary to be defeated. So, I'm not sure whether or not this tactic will doom my chances for employment any more than using countermeasures.
Again, thanks for responses.
While your intent is of course not to deceive the FBI, you *are* aware, aren't you, that the reverse is true? While I find your ethics quite noble, I really do think you should rethink your tactics with regard to the polygraph interrogation.
A polygraph interrogation is an adversarial ordeal. How about this: answer all relavent questions truthfully, but simply consciously augment your physiological responses to the control questions? Since the FBI is insisting on relying on scientifically unproven physiological responses to chart truthfulness/deception in their candidates, why not ensure that these responses fall with the categories they deam to be 'truthful'?
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Sep 26, 2001, 01:21 PMtungsten,
I wish you all the best in your application with the Bureau. Assuming you make it through the process as far as the polygraph (which is generally scheduled after a tentative job offer has been made), please consider sharing your experience here for the benefit of others who face the same choice.
I wish you all the best in your application with the Bureau. Assuming you make it through the process as far as the polygraph (which is generally scheduled after a tentative job offer has been made), please consider sharing your experience here for the benefit of others who face the same choice.
Posted by tungsten
- Sep 26, 2001, 12:54 PMThanks to everyone who replied.
I think I have to clarify that I do not intend to denigrate the tester or polygraphy in general; instead, I will tell him/her truthfully what I know about the testing procedure and that it's likely my knowledge will affect the outcome.
While I may disagree with polygraph testing, my intent is not to deceive the FBI, nor do I feel that the government/FBI is an adversary to be defeated. So, I'm not sure whether or not this tactic will doom my chances for employment any more than using countermeasures.
Again, thanks for responses.
I think I have to clarify that I do not intend to denigrate the tester or polygraphy in general; instead, I will tell him/her truthfully what I know about the testing procedure and that it's likely my knowledge will affect the outcome.
While I may disagree with polygraph testing, my intent is not to deceive the FBI, nor do I feel that the government/FBI is an adversary to be defeated. So, I'm not sure whether or not this tactic will doom my chances for employment any more than using countermeasures.
Again, thanks for responses.
Posted by G Scalabr
- Sep 26, 2001, 06:19 AMI concur with the recommendations of the others. Admitting that you know the polygraph is a farce is overwhelmingly likely to lead to negative results.
In nearly every polygraph examination (regardless of agency), during the "pre-test interview," the examiner asks the subject what he/she knows about the "test." I can only imagine an FBI examiner's response to someone who responds with "I know that polygraph testing is a farce, has never been proven to determine truth from deception with better than chance levels of accuracy, and is easily defeated by simple countermeasures--which I am well versed in by the way... Furthermore, opposition to this type of "testing"--pre-employment screening--among academics is near universal."
I would imagine the polygrapher's response to be something along the lines of "So. You know about countermeasures. Do you plan to use them today?" By simply asking this question, the examiner can immediately place you into a no-win situation before the test even starts. If you answer "yes" (which I assume that you will do since you are going with the complete honesty approach), the examiner has your admission that you attempted to beat the test, allowing him to render a failing decision no matter what the charts show. On the other hand, if you say "no," you put yourself into a logically indefensible position. The examiner's reply is likely to be "Let me get this straight. You know that this process is unreliable, wrongly fails up to 50% of people tested and yet you are choosing not to employ techniques to protect yourself from a false positive. Why?"
If you choose to go down this road, you have been warned. And, if so, you should be prepared for the questions above (although I have no suggestion as to how to answer them). You may wish to reconsider your plans. If I were submitting to an FBI polygraph right now, I would not admit my knowledge of the process when asked. Instead, I would say something like "I heard that the polygraph was recently very helpful in assessing the credibility of information regarding the plans for follow-up terror attacks against Atlanta" or something similar.
In nearly every polygraph examination (regardless of agency), during the "pre-test interview," the examiner asks the subject what he/she knows about the "test." I can only imagine an FBI examiner's response to someone who responds with "I know that polygraph testing is a farce, has never been proven to determine truth from deception with better than chance levels of accuracy, and is easily defeated by simple countermeasures--which I am well versed in by the way... Furthermore, opposition to this type of "testing"--pre-employment screening--among academics is near universal."
I would imagine the polygrapher's response to be something along the lines of "So. You know about countermeasures. Do you plan to use them today?" By simply asking this question, the examiner can immediately place you into a no-win situation before the test even starts. If you answer "yes" (which I assume that you will do since you are going with the complete honesty approach), the examiner has your admission that you attempted to beat the test, allowing him to render a failing decision no matter what the charts show. On the other hand, if you say "no," you put yourself into a logically indefensible position. The examiner's reply is likely to be "Let me get this straight. You know that this process is unreliable, wrongly fails up to 50% of people tested and yet you are choosing not to employ techniques to protect yourself from a false positive. Why?"
If you choose to go down this road, you have been warned. And, if so, you should be prepared for the questions above (although I have no suggestion as to how to answer them). You may wish to reconsider your plans. If I were submitting to an FBI polygraph right now, I would not admit my knowledge of the process when asked. Instead, I would say something like "I heard that the polygraph was recently very helpful in assessing the credibility of information regarding the plans for follow-up terror attacks against Atlanta" or something similar.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Sep 26, 2001, 04:18 AMtungsten,
Regarding the "complete honesty" approach, you asked:
I have not heard from anyone who has tried this approach in applying for employment with the FBI. Should you adopt the complete honesty approach, you might be the first person to do so. I suspect that the polygrapher's response would, as False + and Anonymous have suggested above, be to arbitrarily accuse you of deception and/or having employed countermeasures.
FBI (and other) polygraphers must realize that if they were to waive the polygraph "testing" of those who admit knowing that polygraphy is a fraud, word would spread, and the polygraph house of cards would not long stand. Honest people who would admit to their knowledge of polygraphy and countermeasures would pose a mortal threat to the polygraph "profession."
If you do proceed with the complete honesty approach, then I suggest that you be prepared in advance for the worst. You might consult with attorney Mark S. Zaid <ZaidMS@aol.com>, who is representing eleven plaintiffs who are suing the federal government over its pre-employment polygraph practices.
Regarding the "complete honesty" approach, you asked:
QuoteI'm wondering if anyone has any experience trying this approach? What is the most common response from an FBI tester to this information?
I have not heard from anyone who has tried this approach in applying for employment with the FBI. Should you adopt the complete honesty approach, you might be the first person to do so. I suspect that the polygrapher's response would, as False + and Anonymous have suggested above, be to arbitrarily accuse you of deception and/or having employed countermeasures.
FBI (and other) polygraphers must realize that if they were to waive the polygraph "testing" of those who admit knowing that polygraphy is a fraud, word would spread, and the polygraph house of cards would not long stand. Honest people who would admit to their knowledge of polygraphy and countermeasures would pose a mortal threat to the polygraph "profession."
If you do proceed with the complete honesty approach, then I suggest that you be prepared in advance for the worst. You might consult with attorney Mark S. Zaid <ZaidMS@aol.com>, who is representing eleven plaintiffs who are suing the federal government over its pre-employment polygraph practices.
Posted by Anonymous
- Sep 25, 2001, 08:45 PMTungsten,
Your approach is quite novel, but would be professionally suicidal. I suggest you use your knowledge instead of confessing possession of it. Should you choose to take the latter course, you will most likely be accused of employing countermeasures (whether you do or not) and will undoubtedly be found to be deceptive (currently a kiss of death to your stated employment goals).
Your approach is quite novel, but would be professionally suicidal. I suggest you use your knowledge instead of confessing possession of it. Should you choose to take the latter course, you will most likely be accused of employing countermeasures (whether you do or not) and will undoubtedly be found to be deceptive (currently a kiss of death to your stated employment goals).
Posted by False +
- Sep 25, 2001, 08:41 PMtungsten,
I should start out by saying that I've never been involved with the FBI, as an applicant or otherwise.
That being said, I believe your approach to applying to the FBI vis a vis your polygraph may be ill-conceived. As many have attested to before on this forum, those that have admitted to these agencies that they know all about the polygraph are usually doomed to "fail" the test. The reason for this is that the examiner will likely take your assertion regarding knowing about the polygraph as a threat to his/her control of the situation. The polygrapher will either manipulate the examination into your producing a "deceptive" chart, or will either accuse you of using counter-measures if you happen to produce a "truthful" chart. Either way, you lose. And you will have no appeal. What the polygrapher says is pretty much final.
I assume you have decided to acknowledge your polygraph know-how out of some sort of conscience and not wanting to deceive anyone at all during the process. That decision is obviously yours alone to make. However, keep in mind that this route will exceedingly likely lead to your dismissal as an FBI applicant. The route of highest success is using counter-measures during the exam, which is my recommendation. If you are undeserving of an FBI position, the background investigators will dig something up at some point anyway. It's just unfortunate for all applicants that the polygraph process is itself one monstrous act of deception and hustling on the part of the examiner.
I should start out by saying that I've never been involved with the FBI, as an applicant or otherwise.
That being said, I believe your approach to applying to the FBI vis a vis your polygraph may be ill-conceived. As many have attested to before on this forum, those that have admitted to these agencies that they know all about the polygraph are usually doomed to "fail" the test. The reason for this is that the examiner will likely take your assertion regarding knowing about the polygraph as a threat to his/her control of the situation. The polygrapher will either manipulate the examination into your producing a "deceptive" chart, or will either accuse you of using counter-measures if you happen to produce a "truthful" chart. Either way, you lose. And you will have no appeal. What the polygrapher says is pretty much final.
I assume you have decided to acknowledge your polygraph know-how out of some sort of conscience and not wanting to deceive anyone at all during the process. That decision is obviously yours alone to make. However, keep in mind that this route will exceedingly likely lead to your dismissal as an FBI applicant. The route of highest success is using counter-measures during the exam, which is my recommendation. If you are undeserving of an FBI position, the background investigators will dig something up at some point anyway. It's just unfortunate for all applicants that the polygraph process is itself one monstrous act of deception and hustling on the part of the examiner.
Posted by tungsten
- Sep 25, 2001, 08:07 PMI am applying to the FBI in the near future and have decided to admit that I know about polygraph examinations and thus am a poor candidate for this type of testing (per lie behind the lie-detector).
I'm wondering if anyone has any experience trying this approach? What is the most common response from an FBI tester to this information?
Whatever the result, thanks for the help and resources.
I'm wondering if anyone has any experience trying this approach? What is the most common response from an FBI tester to this information?
Whatever the result, thanks for the help and resources.