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A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by Marty
- Feb 22, 2004, 09:46 PMQuote from: Mr. Truth on Feb 22, 2004, 06:50 PMI was wondering, can you give a Ouija board a polygraph? If you could, would you be able to determine which one was more accurate?
Why not. Backster, a respected (in the industry)polygraph pioneer has spent decades polygraphing plants. There is quite a bit on the net about this. Of course a Ouija board is a portion of a dead plant but it's not too far of a reach. The finishing might affect it though. One should always search for the unvarnished truth.
-Marty
Posted by Mr. Truth
- Feb 22, 2004, 06:50 PMI was wondering, can you give a Ouija board a polygraph? If you could, would you be able to determine which one was more accurate?
Posted by suethem
- Feb 22, 2004, 06:02 PMRay,
That bad breath and body odor comes from being full of shit. Of course all polygraphers smell!!!!
HA HA HA!!!!!!!
How's the Molly Bish case coming? Are you guys closing in on the real killer? Maybe its Richard Jewel?
Hey, by the way, how did the Green River Killer pass the polygraph?
That bad breath and body odor comes from being full of shit. Of course all polygraphers smell!!!!
HA HA HA!!!!!!!
How's the Molly Bish case coming? Are you guys closing in on the real killer? Maybe its Richard Jewel?
Hey, by the way, how did the Green River Killer pass the polygraph?
Posted by Raymond J. Latimer
- Feb 22, 2004, 02:49 PM
Ahhh! George , now I get it. It was the angry, obese polygraph operator ( did he also have bad breath and body odor?) that caused you to be denied your calling.
Ray L.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Feb 22, 2004, 07:07 AMguest,
It is true that I never used any form of countermeasure on any polygraph "test." In fact, I didn't even know what countermeasures were the last time I sat for one. This fact did not, however, prevent an obese LAPD polygraph operator from angrily accusing me of having employed countermeasures.
I noticed that for me, mental countermeasures produce an accompanying scorable breathing reaction by practicing in the absence of a polygraph instrument. One doesn't need a polygraph to note such changes.
It is true that I never used any form of countermeasure on any polygraph "test." In fact, I didn't even know what countermeasures were the last time I sat for one. This fact did not, however, prevent an obese LAPD polygraph operator from angrily accusing me of having employed countermeasures.
I noticed that for me, mental countermeasures produce an accompanying scorable breathing reaction by practicing in the absence of a polygraph instrument. One doesn't need a polygraph to note such changes.
Posted by guest
- Feb 21, 2004, 07:22 PMQuote from: George W. Maschke on Feb 20, 2004, 04:04 PMJitters,George, how did you "find" that since you have never used any form of countermeasure on any polygraph test?
If I were to employ countermeasures, I would personally opt for mental countermeasures. There is no movement involved, and I find that mental countermeasures result in an associated breathing reaction without my having to consciously produce one.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Feb 20, 2004, 04:04 PMJitters,
With regard to the relative effectiveness of "cardio" countermeasures, the available peer-reviewed research suggests that mental countermeasures and tongue-biting are equally effective. There is no such research with regard to the anal sphincter contraction (although there is no doubt that it can produce a significant reaction measurable by the polygraph).
With regard to which is hardest to detect, I think there can be little doubt that mental countermeasures would be hardest. A tongue bite might result in movement that the polygrapher might notice. A piezoelectric sensor in the seat of a polygraph chart might record shifts in weight distribution over the surface of the seat associated with an anal pucker. But there is no published research -- peer-reviewed or otherwise -- supporting the view that polygraphers can reliably detect tongue-biting or the anal sphincter contraction applied as a countermeasure at better-than-chance levels. You might also wish to review the message thread, Counter-countermeasure Techniques.
If I were to employ countermeasures, I would personally opt for mental countermeasures. There is no movement involved, and I find that mental countermeasures result in an associated breathing reaction without my having to consciously produce one.
With regard to breathing countermeasures, note again that none of the breathing countermeasures described in The Lie Behind the Lie Detector call for taking deep breaths. Deep breathing is widely regarded by polygraph operators as a sign of attempted countermeasures.
With regard to the relative effectiveness of "cardio" countermeasures, the available peer-reviewed research suggests that mental countermeasures and tongue-biting are equally effective. There is no such research with regard to the anal sphincter contraction (although there is no doubt that it can produce a significant reaction measurable by the polygraph).
With regard to which is hardest to detect, I think there can be little doubt that mental countermeasures would be hardest. A tongue bite might result in movement that the polygrapher might notice. A piezoelectric sensor in the seat of a polygraph chart might record shifts in weight distribution over the surface of the seat associated with an anal pucker. But there is no published research -- peer-reviewed or otherwise -- supporting the view that polygraphers can reliably detect tongue-biting or the anal sphincter contraction applied as a countermeasure at better-than-chance levels. You might also wish to review the message thread, Counter-countermeasure Techniques.
If I were to employ countermeasures, I would personally opt for mental countermeasures. There is no movement involved, and I find that mental countermeasures result in an associated breathing reaction without my having to consciously produce one.
With regard to breathing countermeasures, note again that none of the breathing countermeasures described in The Lie Behind the Lie Detector call for taking deep breaths. Deep breathing is widely regarded by polygraph operators as a sign of attempted countermeasures.
Posted by Jitters
- Feb 20, 2004, 08:56 AMSo which cardio stimulative countermeasure do you think is most effective and hard to detect? So far I plan on increasing my breathing rate some during control questions, but not sure about the cardio one. The breathing is an easy one and in my opinion impossible to detect, no one can prove you are breathing a certain way on purpose right? If I am nervous or scared my breathing rate will go naturally, so this should be of no surprise or suspicion to the tester I would think. The cardio on the other hand seems to be detectable. I find it is hard to bite my tongue without some mouth movement. The anal pucker thing may be the way to go but I am concerned if there is a seat sensor.
Posted by Jitters
- Feb 20, 2004, 08:42 AMQuote from: osc on Feb 19, 2004, 11:38 PM
If you "stumbled across" some dog shit in your "quest" for a sandwich, would you eat it instead? That's the same thing as using the shit on this site instead of real knowledge.
Any person of some intelligence would identify the "shit" as "shit" and simply step over it. What I stumbled on here ,in my curiousity about what I was about to be experiencing, was a well though out opinion. A seemingly intelligent opinion, unlike your vulgar post which has done nothing to convince me this site is incorrect.
I found myself wondering why are these things not allowed in court? Why is the government the only entity that can use this thing in employee screening? Why is it something so powerful and accurate it can tell that I am lying is held to these restrictions? Surely such a tool would be invaluable in the court system if it is foolproof! Imagine how much time it would save in these lengthy trials! Surely this great technology can be helpful in our court system that is so behind the times, hey, it's 2004! Why not?
So then I see this site and it is clear to me now. Anyone with a sense of logic can see it all too clearly here. It is obvious to me why those who polygraph would be angered by this website. Imagine finding out that all those people who got through you could have played you all along. Imagine the information on this site is what allowed that to happen. I would be angry too.
I am not an idiot, I realize the information on this site can help subpar people get jobs they should not have, or assist in getting criminals off the hook. But also I see where this whole control question thing can hurt an honest person.
It is obvious to me it is not the intent of the writers to help bad people through, but to get rid of the polygraph altogether and rely on better background checks instead.
Good job with the site and thank you. I would have been one of those to answer honestly and maybe pay the price for it.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Feb 20, 2004, 03:24 AMJitters,
It appears you have understood the content of Chapter 4 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector. Polygraphers do use answers to questions in pre-polygraph questionnaires for formulating "control" questions. You can expect any questions to which you've made admissions to be prefaced with, "Other than what you told me..."
It appears you have understood the content of Chapter 4 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector. Polygraphers do use answers to questions in pre-polygraph questionnaires for formulating "control" questions. You can expect any questions to which you've made admissions to be prefaced with, "Other than what you told me..."
Posted by will
- Feb 20, 2004, 01:40 AMOsc, I think you're dog shit. If you feel that way about this website, then why the hell are you here. Maybe you're a polyrapher who is bitter that his/her secret is out, and people are learning what a load of shit polygraphy really is.
Posted by osc
- Feb 19, 2004, 11:38 PMQuote from: Jitters on Feb 19, 2004, 11:16 PMStumbled across this site in the quest for knowledge about what I am about to be put through.
If you "stumbled across" some dog shit in your "quest" for a sandwich, would you eat it instead? That's the same thing as using the shit on this site instead of real knowledge.
Posted by Jitters
- Feb 19, 2004, 11:16 PMStumbled across this site in the quest for knowledge about what I am about to be put through. Pretty nerve wracking stuff here.
I read the book already, correct me if I am wrong but it seems basically you need to:
a) pick a baseline breathing rate
b) identify control questions
c) change your breathing rate/pattern during control questions as to show a response to them, at the same time pick a cardio stimulator of choice
d) Hope your control questions show a greater response than any relevant questions
Do I pretty much have it down here? I think I got it. My only concern is this, I already filled out what I think was a pre-test form, looked like a few control questions could be on it. I think I already answered honestly to them all. So if they already know their control questions are out the window for me, what then? If I already stated I have lied to my boss, stolen from work, and driven under the influence, they should not expect responses from me since I already admitted to these things. Right?
I read the book already, correct me if I am wrong but it seems basically you need to:
a) pick a baseline breathing rate
b) identify control questions
c) change your breathing rate/pattern during control questions as to show a response to them, at the same time pick a cardio stimulator of choice
d) Hope your control questions show a greater response than any relevant questions
Do I pretty much have it down here? I think I got it. My only concern is this, I already filled out what I think was a pre-test form, looked like a few control questions could be on it. I think I already answered honestly to them all. So if they already know their control questions are out the window for me, what then? If I already stated I have lied to my boss, stolen from work, and driven under the influence, they should not expect responses from me since I already admitted to these things. Right?