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Posted by Kona
- Oct 15, 2003, 07:01 AMMarty,
Your point is well taken. Dad is probably asking himself, "is using countermeasures dishonest?" The way I look at it, the answer is a resounding NO. You can call it rationalization if you want, I don't have a problem with that at all. The bottom line is that the whole polygraph process for law enforcement pre-employment interviews is flawed. It is no more accurate in determining if someone is telling the truth than flipping a coin. Since I had told the truth all along to my Background Investigator, I approached the polygraph as just another hurdle that had to be passed in order to become a cop, not some huge moral dilema.
I ended up taking a total of three polygraphs with two different agencies in my quest for a job as a cop. I told the truth with no countermeasures on the first one and passed. I took my second polygraph with a different police dept, told the truth with no countermeasures, and had some problems with some drug and sex questions. Thankfully, I was granted a retest a week later, and passed telling the same truth and using countermeasures.
Marty is absolutely correct that you need to have a solid understanding of the whole process, not just the ability to employ countermeasures. Anyone that is considering utilizing countermeasures must read TLBTLD carefully, and practice. If you can afford Doug Williams' book, read that too because he really explains the whole process, and you will know all the polygrapher's tricks.
Kona
Your point is well taken. Dad is probably asking himself, "is using countermeasures dishonest?" The way I look at it, the answer is a resounding NO. You can call it rationalization if you want, I don't have a problem with that at all. The bottom line is that the whole polygraph process for law enforcement pre-employment interviews is flawed. It is no more accurate in determining if someone is telling the truth than flipping a coin. Since I had told the truth all along to my Background Investigator, I approached the polygraph as just another hurdle that had to be passed in order to become a cop, not some huge moral dilema.
I ended up taking a total of three polygraphs with two different agencies in my quest for a job as a cop. I told the truth with no countermeasures on the first one and passed. I took my second polygraph with a different police dept, told the truth with no countermeasures, and had some problems with some drug and sex questions. Thankfully, I was granted a retest a week later, and passed telling the same truth and using countermeasures.
Marty is absolutely correct that you need to have a solid understanding of the whole process, not just the ability to employ countermeasures. Anyone that is considering utilizing countermeasures must read TLBTLD carefully, and practice. If you can afford Doug Williams' book, read that too because he really explains the whole process, and you will know all the polygrapher's tricks.
Kona
Posted by Marty
- Oct 15, 2003, 03:54 AMQuote from: Kona on Oct 15, 2003, 03:11 AMDad,There is the basic problem of what is honest. Is it honest to lie in order to pass a polygraph? Sure it can be rationalized with the argument that it's only in response the polygrapher's lies. That's not a bad argument. Still, it eats at me as well as many others that have posted. I am just glad I don't have to face such choices.
You need to concentrate on the present, not the past. Obviously you told the truth by disclosing that you applied to another law enforcement agency. Obviously you wouldn't try to hide the fact that you failed a previous polygraph with that agency. That would just be stupid. If you told the total truth on that polygraph, then you really DON'T know why you failed, do you? That is all you have to tell the polygrapher, and leave it at that. Don't go off on a tirade on how you were wronged, or how you've since studied the polygraph, and know everything about it. I guarantee that if you do that, you will be setting yourself up for failure. Just answer his questions, keep your opinions to yourself, and use countermeasures. Bottom line, you have to ask yourself a question; do you want the job or not? If you do, then just play the game, and get over this hurdle.
Kona
In any case, if a person decides to use countermeasures, that person should absolutely feel comfortable understanding what the polygrapher is trying to do, especially in the interview phase where the controls will be selected and reviewed. If one doesn't handle this properly one is more likely to be suspected of using CM's and in that case it wouldn't be a false positive.
-Marty
Posted by TheDad
- Oct 15, 2003, 03:37 AMKona,
that makes sense.
thanks.
D
that makes sense.
thanks.
D
Posted by Kona
- Oct 15, 2003, 03:11 AMDad,
You need to concentrate on the present, not the past. Obviously you told the truth by disclosing that you applied to another law enforcement agency. Obviously you wouldn't try to hide the fact that you failed a previous polygraph with that agency. That would just be stupid. If you told the total truth on that polygraph, then you really DON'T know why you failed, do you? That is all you have to tell the polygrapher, and leave it at that. Don't go off on a tirade on how you were wronged, or how you've since studied the polygraph, and know everything about it. I guarantee that if you do that, you will be setting yourself up for failure. Just answer his questions, keep your opinions to yourself, and use countermeasures. Bottom line, you have to ask yourself a question; do you want the job or not? If you do, then just play the game, and get over this hurdle.
May I have another,
Sounds like your mouth is your worst enemy. Why on earth would you admit to knowing about countermeasures? Strike one. Why in the hell would you ever tell the polygrapher that you know this is just an interrogation, and that it's too bad they don't have any other tools besides the polygraph? Strike two. He's now got you labeled as a smart ass know it all, is fully expecting you to use countermeasures, and probably won't hesitate to DQ your ass at the slightest irregularity on the charts. Strike three, you're out!
Good luck, I am very curious to see how do on any retest.
Kona
You need to concentrate on the present, not the past. Obviously you told the truth by disclosing that you applied to another law enforcement agency. Obviously you wouldn't try to hide the fact that you failed a previous polygraph with that agency. That would just be stupid. If you told the total truth on that polygraph, then you really DON'T know why you failed, do you? That is all you have to tell the polygrapher, and leave it at that. Don't go off on a tirade on how you were wronged, or how you've since studied the polygraph, and know everything about it. I guarantee that if you do that, you will be setting yourself up for failure. Just answer his questions, keep your opinions to yourself, and use countermeasures. Bottom line, you have to ask yourself a question; do you want the job or not? If you do, then just play the game, and get over this hurdle.
May I have another,
Sounds like your mouth is your worst enemy. Why on earth would you admit to knowing about countermeasures? Strike one. Why in the hell would you ever tell the polygrapher that you know this is just an interrogation, and that it's too bad they don't have any other tools besides the polygraph? Strike two. He's now got you labeled as a smart ass know it all, is fully expecting you to use countermeasures, and probably won't hesitate to DQ your ass at the slightest irregularity on the charts. Strike three, you're out!
Good luck, I am very curious to see how do on any retest.
Kona
Posted by MayIHaveAnother
- Oct 14, 2003, 04:36 PMGeorge,
I also told the polygrapher that I knew it was just an
interrogation and that it was too bad that they had
no other tools, besides the poly. What they should
really do, is to look more closely in peoples finances,
and require pepole to turn in financial statements.
Haven't most of the spy cases been financially motivated ?
Posted by MayIHaveAnother
- Oct 14, 2003, 04:29 PMGeorge,
He asked me what I had read about CMs, and I told
him the usual; biting the tongue, sphincter muscle, and
tac in shoe. I forgot to mention the deodorant on the
fingertips. I really don't know why I need to go back,
but I bet I get the bad cop again, then I will fail. I
don't think any polygrapher is going to lose sleep over
failing an honest person. I wonder if they are going
to start failing anyone who has a hint of what is going
on. Although I was holding back, on the first couple of
tests, the last two I was up front with them (it concerns
an issue that is a non-issue)...
Posted by Marty
- Oct 14, 2003, 04:10 PMQuote from: TheDad on Oct 14, 2003, 03:43 PM!!!
i was honest in my control questions.
if what you say is true, then i would have been flat-lining on my control questions. Why on earth would i lie to the control questions??? that seems stupid to me.
what you're saying is that an honest person has a higher chance of getting a false positive!
That's exactly what I'm saying. When you answer control questions like "did you ever lie to your wife" with examples like you stated, the examiner will reword the question to exclude only what you used as an example and admonish you about the evils of lying in order to get you to lie on the control AND react to that question.
This should be very clear to you after reading TLBTLD. Unless it is both clear and intuitive I would not suggest using or attempting to use CM's. After you completely understand what they are trying to do you can make a more informed decision about how to proceed. Personally, I like the "total honesty" approach. I would do this:
1. Admit I had studied the polygraph as a result of failing the first exam.
2. Get a copy of polygrapher's materials that describe CQT polygraphy.
3. During the prelim phase, they will almost certainly then try to buffalo you about the "false information" on the web. Just go along with the program until they review the questions with you then point out the "controls" and state that you both know from your studying they are controls and that you are also telling the truth on them and that you feel very frustrated because you don't want to lie. Don't be accusatory. If the examiner fails you at least make him lose some sleep knowing that he may well have failed a very honest person.
-Marty
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Oct 14, 2003, 04:10 PMMayIHaveAnother,
What did you tell your polygraph examiner about your knowledge of polygraphy?
Note that within the Department of Defense, for the past several years running, the only individuals who have ultimately (after all "re-tests") failed their counterintelligence-scope polygraph examinations have been those who made "substantive" admissions. See How to Pass the DoD CI-Scope Polygraph.
What did you tell your polygraph examiner about your knowledge of polygraphy?
Note that within the Department of Defense, for the past several years running, the only individuals who have ultimately (after all "re-tests") failed their counterintelligence-scope polygraph examinations have been those who made "substantive" admissions. See How to Pass the DoD CI-Scope Polygraph.
Posted by MayIHaveAnother
- Oct 14, 2003, 03:59 PMGeorge,
I am in queue for yet another CI poly at an Intel
agency. Your question, as to how polygraphers might
react to those who have visited this site, was asked to
me at my last poly. The guy was professional (well, he
didn't play the good cop/bad cop routine) and we ran
through the test just a few times, and there were no
concerns, or post-interrogation. He also warned me
about spiking the control questions. Anyway, I have
taken so many of the polys, that I knew I had passed.
Guess what ? I have to go back again ! If they don't
want to give me access, then they should just say so.
I am one of the lucky ones, that received a DoD TS many
years ago, so that, if I don't get access, I am not totally
hosed. I think the whole thing, with the poly, is a
disgrace, that they can't trust people who are already
cleared. I bet that 99.99% of Americans are loyal,
especially after 9/11. For my previous poly, before last,
I got the bad cop. The poly chair looked like something
out of a cartoon - an oversized wooden chair covered
with what looked like carpet. At one point, he wanted
me to lie (directed lie control test ?), but I didn't, so
he slammed down his fist and wheeled his chair over
in front of me, to get into my face. I knew that that poly
was history. I am really wondering, if this is all worth it.
The job market is tighter, just for a TS, but for a TS/SCI,
there is no end. I am not one to use CMs, but if they
have many charts on someone, then the use of CMs
would be obvious, when the control questions spike.
Too bad this site wasn't available years ago, when I
first started this nonsense...
Posted by TheDad
- Oct 14, 2003, 03:43 PM!!!
i was honest in my control questions.
if what you say is true, then i would have been flat-lining on my control questions. Why on earth would i lie to the control questions??? that seems stupid to me.
what you're saying is that an honest person has a higher chance of getting a false positive!
have i ever lied to a loved one? of course, or at least withheld all information about a particular subject. I have to! I'm in a position of trust in my church, and I work for the Navy as a contractor where I often have access to patient records. I could have a horrible day, and when my wife asks: "did you have a good day?", do you think I'm going to ruin hers? You BET i had a good day, and it's going to get even better now that i'm home...
have i ever stolen anything? yeah, as a kid i stole a magazine (or a comic book). i think i was 10. Oh, and i still feel guilty about it.
anyway, it seems that honesty is NOT rewarded by the system. I guess some of you are laughing at me, thinking "duh. of course, moron."
Well, I'm learning fast.
Again, to the poly detectives:
I didn't lie on my polygraph.
-What can I do?
-How can I expect to be treated?
-How have you handled people who come to you with my situation.
thanks for your time,
D
i was honest in my control questions.
if what you say is true, then i would have been flat-lining on my control questions. Why on earth would i lie to the control questions??? that seems stupid to me.
what you're saying is that an honest person has a higher chance of getting a false positive!
have i ever lied to a loved one? of course, or at least withheld all information about a particular subject. I have to! I'm in a position of trust in my church, and I work for the Navy as a contractor where I often have access to patient records. I could have a horrible day, and when my wife asks: "did you have a good day?", do you think I'm going to ruin hers? You BET i had a good day, and it's going to get even better now that i'm home...
have i ever stolen anything? yeah, as a kid i stole a magazine (or a comic book). i think i was 10. Oh, and i still feel guilty about it.
anyway, it seems that honesty is NOT rewarded by the system. I guess some of you are laughing at me, thinking "duh. of course, moron."
Well, I'm learning fast.
Again, to the poly detectives:
I didn't lie on my polygraph.
-What can I do?
-How can I expect to be treated?
-How have you handled people who come to you with my situation.
thanks for your time,
D
Posted by Marty
- Oct 14, 2003, 03:30 PMDad,
Do you recall the "control" questions from your first polygraph? Those are the ones they wanted you to lie on (without telling you that, of course). If you answered the controls honestly (not what the polygrapher wants) you would be more likely to respond more highly to the accusatory cocaine question even though you have never used it. The controls are selected such that most everyone will lie and feel guilty about them. You will typically be more focussed and antsy on properly selected controls than on the relevants (like the cocaine Q). Unfortunately, people that are unusually honest and don't lie on the controls are at a disadvantage.
-Marty
Do you recall the "control" questions from your first polygraph? Those are the ones they wanted you to lie on (without telling you that, of course). If you answered the controls honestly (not what the polygrapher wants) you would be more likely to respond more highly to the accusatory cocaine question even though you have never used it. The controls are selected such that most everyone will lie and feel guilty about them. You will typically be more focussed and antsy on properly selected controls than on the relevants (like the cocaine Q). Unfortunately, people that are unusually honest and don't lie on the controls are at a disadvantage.
-Marty
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Oct 14, 2003, 03:28 PMTheDad,
I am also interested in the anwers to your questions that any polygraph examiners who read this message board may care to post. Perhaps some might also explain how polygraph examiners are to handle subjects who admit to understing "the lie behind the lie detector." I have put this question to American Polygraph Association president Skip Webb, but he declined to answer:
http://antipolygraph.org/read.shtml#informed-subjects
I am also interested in the anwers to your questions that any polygraph examiners who read this message board may care to post. Perhaps some might also explain how polygraph examiners are to handle subjects who admit to understing "the lie behind the lie detector." I have put this question to American Polygraph Association president Skip Webb, but he declined to answer:
http://antipolygraph.org/read.shtml#informed-subjects
Posted by TheDad
- Oct 14, 2003, 03:12 PMHi,
thanks for the comments so far.
i have every intention of disclosing that i applied to a different department. I also know that they are going to ask me about the first poly.
i AM being 100% honest about not ever using drugs. It was a real blow to me, and after it was over and i was driving home i was crying like a baby. I was so distraught over it that i called the poly detective and he said something like "well, why is this bothering you so much? is there something you want to tell me?"
and i said "Yes! I DIDN'T DO IT!!!"
but like i said , it didn't matter.
I can't withhold the fact that i applied, and i can't withhold the fact that i took (and failed) a poly. I know that i have to discuss it with them. My problem with the system is that the poly detectives view their computer chart as a crystal ball. They are unwilling to admit that there can be false-positives. At least, that is what their attitude was towards me.
There doesn't appear to be any way for a person who gets a false positive to clear themselves. It's 'you against the machine', and the human seems to lose these battles.
I am very interested in hearing from POLYGRAPH DETECTIVES. I didn't lie on my polygraph.
-What can I do?
-How can I expect to be treated?
-How have you handled people who come to you with my situation.
I want to maintain my respect for the officers who perform this duty for the department, but I have to say that my personal experience was nightmarish because I DIDN'T DO IT.
Please comment.
thanks,
D
thanks for the comments so far.
i have every intention of disclosing that i applied to a different department. I also know that they are going to ask me about the first poly.
i AM being 100% honest about not ever using drugs. It was a real blow to me, and after it was over and i was driving home i was crying like a baby. I was so distraught over it that i called the poly detective and he said something like "well, why is this bothering you so much? is there something you want to tell me?"
and i said "Yes! I DIDN'T DO IT!!!"
but like i said , it didn't matter.
I can't withhold the fact that i applied, and i can't withhold the fact that i took (and failed) a poly. I know that i have to discuss it with them. My problem with the system is that the poly detectives view their computer chart as a crystal ball. They are unwilling to admit that there can be false-positives. At least, that is what their attitude was towards me.
There doesn't appear to be any way for a person who gets a false positive to clear themselves. It's 'you against the machine', and the human seems to lose these battles.
I am very interested in hearing from POLYGRAPH DETECTIVES. I didn't lie on my polygraph.
-What can I do?
-How can I expect to be treated?
-How have you handled people who come to you with my situation.
I want to maintain my respect for the officers who perform this duty for the department, but I have to say that my personal experience was nightmarish because I DIDN'T DO IT.
Please comment.
thanks,
D
Posted by guest
- Oct 14, 2003, 12:23 PMThe Dad,
see, that is the kind of ignorance that you will find on this board. Despite the fact that they (the anti-folks) always rag us about our views. I do not feel that I am qualified to advise you onyour previous polygraph experience. I just do not have enough information, and as much as I hate to say it, you may have run into an inept examiner....assuming you ARE being 100%honest. I assure you that any department worthe their salt is going to do a background check before you get to the polygraph phase. They WILL know about your application (especially within the same state - how stupid!) and most likely about your previous polygraph. The examiner will wonder why you did not mention it, in fact he will most likely ask you, so it becomes a moot point. Saying that you "forgot" about it isn't going to cut it. You will be backed into a corner and the justifiable position that the examiner will take is that you are trying to hide something from the very beginning....now what would you think. Some of these fools and their very, very strange advice amazes me. Where will they be when you get discovered? Bet they won't be there to support you then.
see, that is the kind of ignorance that you will find on this board. Despite the fact that they (the anti-folks) always rag us about our views. I do not feel that I am qualified to advise you onyour previous polygraph experience. I just do not have enough information, and as much as I hate to say it, you may have run into an inept examiner....assuming you ARE being 100%honest. I assure you that any department worthe their salt is going to do a background check before you get to the polygraph phase. They WILL know about your application (especially within the same state - how stupid!) and most likely about your previous polygraph. The examiner will wonder why you did not mention it, in fact he will most likely ask you, so it becomes a moot point. Saying that you "forgot" about it isn't going to cut it. You will be backed into a corner and the justifiable position that the examiner will take is that you are trying to hide something from the very beginning....now what would you think. Some of these fools and their very, very strange advice amazes me. Where will they be when you get discovered? Bet they won't be there to support you then.
Posted by Anonymous
- Oct 14, 2003, 06:08 AMTheDad,
It might be better not to mention your previous sheriff's department application and polygraph experience.
It might be better not to mention your previous sheriff's department application and polygraph experience.