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Posted by Kona
- Sep 28, 2003, 08:13 PMHelpin,
Just curious, how did your husband do on his third polygraph?
It's funny you mention that your husband wouldn't use countermeasures, but would listen for control questions, in order to heighten his sensitivity to them. This sounds like he is planning on employing countermeasures in an indirect fashion, whether he is willing to accept that fact, or not.
At any rate, I wish your husband the best of luck, and hope that his naivete' doesn't cost him his chance at a career in law enforcement.
Kona
Just curious, how did your husband do on his third polygraph?
It's funny you mention that your husband wouldn't use countermeasures, but would listen for control questions, in order to heighten his sensitivity to them. This sounds like he is planning on employing countermeasures in an indirect fashion, whether he is willing to accept that fact, or not.
At any rate, I wish your husband the best of luck, and hope that his naivete' doesn't cost him his chance at a career in law enforcement.
Kona
Posted by Helpin
- Sep 24, 2003, 04:37 PMYes, it was framed with other, more specific questions. I think your assessment that the operator may have been attempting to sensitize him to that question is correct. Knowing that he would be highly sensitive to the marijuana question, the controller needed him to spike on the general drug control question and since my husband was intrepreting the control question to mean "have you ever done any other illegal drugs" rather than "have you ever had any exposure to other illegal drugs" he didn't spike on that control question. Too funny, we spent weeks worrying about why they would think he'd done other drugs when quite the opposite was true. They knew he hadn't done any other drugs because the control question wouldn't spike.
Unfortunately, the third poly is tomorrow, and my husband says he won't use countermeasures. He will however, attempt to listen for control quesions, and intrepret them in as broad a way as possible, in order to heighten his sensitivity to them. Really, as jumpy as he is about this test, I think just knowing about the control questions will cause him to spike em a bit. Will let you know how it goes, or doesn't.
Unfortunately, the third poly is tomorrow, and my husband says he won't use countermeasures. He will however, attempt to listen for control quesions, and intrepret them in as broad a way as possible, in order to heighten his sensitivity to them. Really, as jumpy as he is about this test, I think just knowing about the control questions will cause him to spike em a bit. Will let you know how it goes, or doesn't.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Sep 24, 2003, 04:23 AMHelpin,
It is conceivable that the question "Other than what we've discussed, have you had any exposure to illegal drugs?" was intended as a probable-lie "control" question, although if so, I think it was a poor choice.
The best way to assess whether a question is intended as a relevant or "control" question is by comparing it with the other questions in the series. In particular, did the in-test phase include any other question(s) about illegal drugs?
It is conceivable that the question "Other than what we've discussed, have you had any exposure to illegal drugs?" was intended as a probable-lie "control" question, although if so, I think it was a poor choice.
The best way to assess whether a question is intended as a relevant or "control" question is by comparing it with the other questions in the series. In particular, did the in-test phase include any other question(s) about illegal drugs?
Posted by Helpin
- Sep 23, 2003, 04:10 PMYou know, it could be a control question, because when my husband really thought about it later, the term "exposure to" could mean anything, including seeing illegal drug use in the media. In fact, in requesting another exam, the recruiting officer suggested that my husband write up an appeal letter explaining that he realized he had been intrepreting the question too narrowly. When you combine this information with the fact that the only illegal thing my husband has ever knowingly done is smoke marajuana once as a teen, and his EXTREME regret and shame about that act, then it makes sense that the shaman (er, I mean polygrapher) may have been attempting to help him get past the marajuana question.
I dunno, what do you think?
I dunno, what do you think?
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Sep 23, 2003, 05:36 AMKona,
You make a well-reasoned case for why the question, "Other than what we have discussed, have you had any exposure to illegal drugs?" might be a probable-lie "control" question. However, I think it is a mistake to assume that all questions in any particular polygraph examination are well-formulated.
Based on the feedback that we have received from those who have undergone polygraph examinations, the question cannot be considered a "classic" probable-lie "control" question. This is the first I've heard of this question being used.
Moreover, it is unusual that a polygraph subject would be told that he is having a "problem" with a "control" question, as Helpin's husband was regarding exposure to illegal drugs (unless, perhaps, the examiner was attempting to "help" the examinee to pass by sensitizing him to a "control" question).
You make a well-reasoned case for why the question, "Other than what we have discussed, have you had any exposure to illegal drugs?" might be a probable-lie "control" question. However, I think it is a mistake to assume that all questions in any particular polygraph examination are well-formulated.
Based on the feedback that we have received from those who have undergone polygraph examinations, the question cannot be considered a "classic" probable-lie "control" question. This is the first I've heard of this question being used.
Moreover, it is unusual that a polygraph subject would be told that he is having a "problem" with a "control" question, as Helpin's husband was regarding exposure to illegal drugs (unless, perhaps, the examiner was attempting to "help" the examinee to pass by sensitizing him to a "control" question).
Posted by Kona
- Sep 23, 2003, 05:22 AMHelpin,
Your husband is living in a dreamworld if he thinks that relaxing, and telling the truth is going to save him. He's dealing with a guy that will be comparing his physiological responses to control questions and relevant questions. If his responses to the control questions are stronger than to the relevant questions, then he is an honest and truthful guy......if not, he is a lying dog that is not to be trusted. This is crackpot science that has no validity. He needs to read Doug Williams manual, or at the very least, this website's "The lie behind the lie detector."
BTW, the question: "Other than what we have discussed, have you had any exposure to illegal drugs?" is a classic "known lie" control question. Sorry George, but I think that this question is too general in nature, and is nonspecific in terms of time to be relevant. "Have you smoked marijuana?" and "Have you taken Methamphetamines?" are examples of relevant questions.
Good luck to you,
Kona
Your husband is living in a dreamworld if he thinks that relaxing, and telling the truth is going to save him. He's dealing with a guy that will be comparing his physiological responses to control questions and relevant questions. If his responses to the control questions are stronger than to the relevant questions, then he is an honest and truthful guy......if not, he is a lying dog that is not to be trusted. This is crackpot science that has no validity. He needs to read Doug Williams manual, or at the very least, this website's "The lie behind the lie detector."
BTW, the question: "Other than what we have discussed, have you had any exposure to illegal drugs?" is a classic "known lie" control question. Sorry George, but I think that this question is too general in nature, and is nonspecific in terms of time to be relevant. "Have you smoked marijuana?" and "Have you taken Methamphetamines?" are examples of relevant questions.
Good luck to you,
Kona
Posted by Poly-Killer
- Sep 19, 2003, 06:03 PMQuote from: Saidme on Sep 19, 2003, 05:32 PMGeorge
I always get a kick out of your statements about how the polygraph examiners lie to the examinees. Keep up the good work!
Are you implying that examiners are truthful and completely candid about the poly when they conduct screening exams?
Have a nice day!
Posted by Saidme
- Sep 19, 2003, 05:32 PMGeorge
I always get a kick out of your statements about how the polygraph examiners lie to the examinees. Keep up the good work!
I always get a kick out of your statements about how the polygraph examiners lie to the examinees. Keep up the good work!
Posted by Helpin
- Sep 19, 2003, 04:46 PMThanks again for the help. I understand that this time they'll have him go to a non-PD polygrapher, a private contractor. Don't know if that will make any difference, but his recruiter thinks the change of setting may help.
They keep telling him to "relax" and "go to your happy place" as if that will help a damned thing. Perhaps this is their way of coaching him on the "behavioral countermeasures." Who knows.
I am feeding him what I hope is some good advice, at least enough to allow him to recognize control questions and make them spike a bit.
At any rate, I want to thank you for the service you provide here, and for making those services available for free. After reading some of the stories about people who have had their lives ruined by this voo-doo magic, I am thankful you are providing these wronged people with a way to heal.
I'll let you know how it goes for us.
They keep telling him to "relax" and "go to your happy place" as if that will help a damned thing. Perhaps this is their way of coaching him on the "behavioral countermeasures." Who knows.
I am feeding him what I hope is some good advice, at least enough to allow him to recognize control questions and make them spike a bit.
At any rate, I want to thank you for the service you provide here, and for making those services available for free. After reading some of the stories about people who have had their lives ruined by this voo-doo magic, I am thankful you are providing these wronged people with a way to heal.
I'll let you know how it goes for us.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Sep 18, 2003, 06:16 AMHelpin,
One more point to bear in mind is that after two inconclusive sessions, your husband's polygrapher will likely have a difficult time believing that he has not researched the issue on the Internet.
One more point to bear in mind is that after two inconclusive sessions, your husband's polygrapher will likely have a difficult time believing that he has not researched the issue on the Internet.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Sep 18, 2003, 05:49 AMHelpin,
I fully understand your husband's not wanting to lie. However, he needs to understand that the polygraph procedure is based on the premise that everyone will lie, or at least be less than completely truthful, when answering the so-called "control" questions. As Mr. Truth correctly noted, the polygraph procedure is inherently biased against the truthful, because the more candidly one answers the "control" questions, and as a consequence experiences less anxiety when answering them, the more likely one is to fail.
Your husband should also be made aware that whether or not he chooses to be completely honest with his polygrapher, the polygraph procedure also necessarily involves the polygrapher deliberately lying to and otherwise attempting to deceive the person being "tested." You'll find the deceptions involved exposed in Chapter 3 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector.
I fully understand your husband's not wanting to lie. However, he needs to understand that the polygraph procedure is based on the premise that everyone will lie, or at least be less than completely truthful, when answering the so-called "control" questions. As Mr. Truth correctly noted, the polygraph procedure is inherently biased against the truthful, because the more candidly one answers the "control" questions, and as a consequence experiences less anxiety when answering them, the more likely one is to fail.
Your husband should also be made aware that whether or not he chooses to be completely honest with his polygrapher, the polygraph procedure also necessarily involves the polygrapher deliberately lying to and otherwise attempting to deceive the person being "tested." You'll find the deceptions involved exposed in Chapter 3 of The Lie Behind the Lie Detector.
Posted by Helpin
- Sep 18, 2003, 04:51 AMThanks, Mr. Maschke, for the response. This is good advice.
I wanted to clarify the reason my husband doesn't want to visit this site is so he may answer truthfully if asked if he has researched this issue on the Internet. He doesn't want to keep his head in the sand, but genuinely finds it difficult to lie. Makes for a great hubby! Will make a great cop too if he can get past this damned thing.
Thanks again for your help.
I wanted to clarify the reason my husband doesn't want to visit this site is so he may answer truthfully if asked if he has researched this issue on the Internet. He doesn't want to keep his head in the sand, but genuinely finds it difficult to lie. Makes for a great hubby! Will make a great cop too if he can get past this damned thing.
Thanks again for your help.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Sep 18, 2003, 03:55 AMHelpin,
I think the question, "Other than what we've discussed, have you had any exposure to illegal drugs?" is most likely a relevant question.
I also think your friend would be wise to augment his reactions to the "control" questions to reduce the risk of a false positive or inconclusive outcome. He would not have been scheduled for a third polygraph session if his prospective employer had no expectation that the results might be different the third time.
Why is your friend unwilling even to visit AntiPolygraph.org? If he is truly determined to stick to such a head-in-the-sand approach, there little you can do to help. (As the proverb goes, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.) If he remains unwilling to read the information available here, perhaps he might begin by taking a look at the report of the National Academy of Sciences' Committee to Review the Scientific Evidence on the Polygraph:
http://www.nap.edu/books/0309084369/html/
The Los Angeles Police Department has a policy similar to the one you've described. Applicants may be polygraphed as many as three times. If they don't pass, they must wait a year before re-applying.
I think the question, "Other than what we've discussed, have you had any exposure to illegal drugs?" is most likely a relevant question.
I also think your friend would be wise to augment his reactions to the "control" questions to reduce the risk of a false positive or inconclusive outcome. He would not have been scheduled for a third polygraph session if his prospective employer had no expectation that the results might be different the third time.
Why is your friend unwilling even to visit AntiPolygraph.org? If he is truly determined to stick to such a head-in-the-sand approach, there little you can do to help. (As the proverb goes, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.) If he remains unwilling to read the information available here, perhaps he might begin by taking a look at the report of the National Academy of Sciences' Committee to Review the Scientific Evidence on the Polygraph:
http://www.nap.edu/books/0309084369/html/
The Los Angeles Police Department has a policy similar to the one you've described. Applicants may be polygraphed as many as three times. If they don't pass, they must wait a year before re-applying.
Posted by Mr. Truth
- Sep 18, 2003, 02:15 AMYour "beloved" is naive to think simply telling the truth will save the day. Let's say he fails the next test, after having answered the questions truthfully. That makes him a false positive (deception indicated, when there wasn't any). What will his reaction be then? "Gee, I guess I'm a liar because there is no way the polygraph can be wrong?" What is dishonest about using countermeasures against a flawed process? He can still tell the truth. In fact, the polygraph is biased against someone who tells the truth. But, hey, what the heck. Good luck, sounds like he'll need it.
Posted by Helpin
- Sep 17, 2003, 09:17 PMSomeone I love dearly has a dream of becoming a police officer. His first two tests were "inconclusive" relating to the question, "Other than what we've discussed, have you had any exposure to illegal drugs?"
Do you think this is a control question? It is the one they tell him is the "problem." On the second test, they drilled down on the drug issues, and after the test asked, "Is there any question about which you were confused?" He replied, "No, but please let me know if there are any problems because I'd really like to get this straightened out."
The tester just said, "I'll have to read the test and we'll get back with you."
My beloved just heard yesterday that this second test was "inconclusive" and was given the opportunity to test a third time.
Please understand, my sweetie is the most honest person you'll ever meet. When he answered "no" to the drug question, he was truly being honest! I am not sure his ethics will allow him to employ countermeasures on this final test (he won't even check out this website!) but even if I can get him to consider it, should he? I mean what if the results are markedly different than the first two?
If this test comes back "inconclusive" we understand he may be disqualified, asked to wait a year, or get to appeal before the head of the recruiting office. Anyone ever heard of this before?
Yea, I know there are about 42 questions imbedded in this request. I can't tell you how much I appreciate any help anyone can toss our way.
Do you think this is a control question? It is the one they tell him is the "problem." On the second test, they drilled down on the drug issues, and after the test asked, "Is there any question about which you were confused?" He replied, "No, but please let me know if there are any problems because I'd really like to get this straightened out."
The tester just said, "I'll have to read the test and we'll get back with you."
My beloved just heard yesterday that this second test was "inconclusive" and was given the opportunity to test a third time.
Please understand, my sweetie is the most honest person you'll ever meet. When he answered "no" to the drug question, he was truly being honest! I am not sure his ethics will allow him to employ countermeasures on this final test (he won't even check out this website!) but even if I can get him to consider it, should he? I mean what if the results are markedly different than the first two?
If this test comes back "inconclusive" we understand he may be disqualified, asked to wait a year, or get to appeal before the head of the recruiting office. Anyone ever heard of this before?
Yea, I know there are about 42 questions imbedded in this request. I can't tell you how much I appreciate any help anyone can toss our way.