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A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by Katelyn Sack
- Oct 04, 2009, 09:05 PMIf a candidate had already been rejected on the basis of information obtained on SF-86 and in the course of the BI, why would the FBI or any other agency go to the time and expense of conducting a polygraph?
As a taxpayer, I would certainly hope that if a candidate makes it to the polygraph stage of the process and is then rejected, the rejection was overwhelmingly likely made on the basis of information or results avowedly obtained during polygraph interrogation.
Pauline, you must know regular social alcohol use is relatively common in many corporate cultures, including many of those within the military-industrial complex. So these agencies do not generally discriminate on the basis of past alcohol use/abuse that has been treated or remedied. In fact, according to my sources, the CIA does not fire individuals solely for being alcoholics.
I don't know about depression specifically, but we're talking about a veteran with a common mental health condition that is treated and under control. Does it seem rational to expect that federal agencies would systematically discriminate against this class of people? If federal employment law applies, I'm pretty sure that's illegal. It's certainly not a good way to honor service, which puts folks at increased risks for depressive and anxiety disorders.
As for someone else's personal demons and broken dreams being funny and/or sad to some: these are unprofessional ad hominem attacks that do not contribute to a frank discussion of facts and experiences.
BBernie, I hope you are able to FOIA your investigative file and its administrative tracking file, and find out what's going on. George is such a great resource for this stuff - have you private-messaged him with any specific questions about what's next?
As a taxpayer, I would certainly hope that if a candidate makes it to the polygraph stage of the process and is then rejected, the rejection was overwhelmingly likely made on the basis of information or results avowedly obtained during polygraph interrogation.
Pauline, you must know regular social alcohol use is relatively common in many corporate cultures, including many of those within the military-industrial complex. So these agencies do not generally discriminate on the basis of past alcohol use/abuse that has been treated or remedied. In fact, according to my sources, the CIA does not fire individuals solely for being alcoholics.
I don't know about depression specifically, but we're talking about a veteran with a common mental health condition that is treated and under control. Does it seem rational to expect that federal agencies would systematically discriminate against this class of people? If federal employment law applies, I'm pretty sure that's illegal. It's certainly not a good way to honor service, which puts folks at increased risks for depressive and anxiety disorders.
As for someone else's personal demons and broken dreams being funny and/or sad to some: these are unprofessional ad hominem attacks that do not contribute to a frank discussion of facts and experiences.
BBernie, I hope you are able to FOIA your investigative file and its administrative tracking file, and find out what's going on. George is such a great resource for this stuff - have you private-messaged him with any specific questions about what's next?
Posted by BBernie
- Oct 04, 2009, 11:31 AMQuote from: Polypro_Pauline on Oct 03, 2009, 11:11 PMYou say: "I never have been in any legal trouble, but have had a problem with alcohol in the past, and all of this was documented and noted on the SF-86 and discussed in the polygraph examination. I am currently seeing a psychiatrist with the VA for depression and am taking anti-depressant medication."
If it were not so sad it would be funny that you come to an anti-polygraph web board to ask these people why you were not selected for the F.B.I. position. I mean really, think about it. If you were in charge of choosing people for a job and you had someone like yourself who is highly qualified but with a history of alcoholism and depression on one hand, and on the other hand you had a few highly qualified people without those problems, who would you choose? I hate to seem insensitive, but does this not make more sense than assuming that you unjustly failed a polygraph?
Yes, it does make sense. I agree with you. I shouldn't have come to this board to ask the question. I am frustrated by the system. It's just that I was honest from the beginning of the hiring process, about my background. I've made mistakes in the past, and have learned from them. I also did not lie or hide anything. I guess the frustration on my part is that I just thought that I should have been disqualified much earlier in the process. I did not understand the terminology of a "conditional job offer" or what that exactly entailed. I realize I should have done the research on that beforehand, and it was naive on my part to think that I would have been hired. However, at no time during the hiring process was I given any indication that I was not suitable for hire. And only after 6 months, and long AFTER taking a polygraph, drug test, and interview was I notified. My AC did not give me any other indication that there was a problem with my past, despite providing all of the information from the beginning. Did I fail the polygraph? What about the drug test? I never will know. Who knows? I certainly will never get an answer from the FBI, because they are not talking about it to me and refuse to discuss the matter. I understand that the FBI has the legitimate right to refuse anyone for employment based on character alone. My beef with this system is the length of time it has taken to reach this determination. Had I received any negative indication earlier on, I never would have resigned my position at my current job and made plans to relocate at my expense. All of my interactions with the AC and the FBI field offices were postive until I received the form letter in the mail. I just feel that the FBI could have saved significant money, time and manpower and I would have been spared alot of frustration during an indordinate lenghty, and degrading hiring process.
My situation, after looking at it objectively, is nothing I could ever hope to fight and expect to win. The FBI reserves the right, regardless of how qualified you may be, to not hire you based on completely subjective reasoning. In other words, if there is something in your character (and you can't really get more subject that that!), that they dont' like, then the FBI is completely within their rights to hire someone just as, or more, qualified. After reading over the thread responses, I just realized that my situation is a lost cause. I am not a defeatist person, just being practical. The FBI is a professional organization with some of the very best that America has to offer, however, the FBI, as an organization, is not lilly white. They have had integrity issues in the past. The founding director, J. Edgar Hoover, had he lived, would have done signficant jail time as he was dishonest, and corrupt.
I am not naive. As a 49 year old male, I know there are many younger applicants who don't have the baggage I have. Although I have learned from my past mistakes, I understand the FBI's position on this. I really believe, however, that by being honest from the beginning of the hiring process about my past alcohol problems, I might have been considered to be a worthy candidate as I have overcame some of my short-comings. It doesn't take the sting away, but at least I understand that I don't have a "right" to be hired. That decision is up to the FBI and there is nothing you, or I can do to change that. Your comment about being insenstive got me thinking. The whole hiring process is designed to benefit the organization, and not the individual. I can't think of anything more insenstive than that. What I mean is that (without looking for special treatment) prospective hires should be treated with a certain amount of respect too. Specifically, in the hiring determination. My frustration is not understanding after I completed ALL of the information on my SF-86 and interviewed with the FBI, why an evaluation for suitability couldn't have been made at that time. But again, I don't even know for certain if the reasoning was because of what you mentioned, although it does make sense. I would just appreciate being told this, since I certainly had to wait long enough, an appropriate answer or reason doesn't seem like that much to ask. I appreciate everyone's comments on this board, I do learn alot just by reading them. Thank you! And again, I do appreciate your comments and input on this matter. I was curious about the polygraph, and thought I might learn something about them.
Posted by Polypro Pauline
- Oct 03, 2009, 11:11 PMYou say: "I never have been in any legal trouble, but have had a problem with alcohol in the past, and all of this was documented and noted on the SF-86 and discussed in the polygraph examination. I am currently seeing a psychiatrist with the VA for depression and am taking anti-depressant medication."
If it were not so sad it would be funny that you come to an anti-polygraph web board to ask these people why you were not selected for the F.B.I. position. I mean really, think about it. If you were in charge of choosing people for a job and you had someone like yourself who is highly qualified but with a history of alcoholism and depression on one hand, and on the other hand you had a few highly qualified people without those problems, who would you choose? I hate to seem insensitive, but does this not make more sense than assuming that you unjustly failed a polygraph?
If it were not so sad it would be funny that you come to an anti-polygraph web board to ask these people why you were not selected for the F.B.I. position. I mean really, think about it. If you were in charge of choosing people for a job and you had someone like yourself who is highly qualified but with a history of alcoholism and depression on one hand, and on the other hand you had a few highly qualified people without those problems, who would you choose? I hate to seem insensitive, but does this not make more sense than assuming that you unjustly failed a polygraph?
Posted by BBernie
- Sep 29, 2009, 09:51 PMHello all,
I have been reviewing with interest the posts on this thread. I, too, received one of those dreaded rejection letters from the FBI today. Needless to say, I am totally devastated. I applied in March 2009 online through USAJOBS.COM for a support position (Technical Information Specialist, GS-7) at the FBI's ***** Division. I received a conditional offer of employment in April 2009 and completed the BI paperwork at that time. I took a polygraph, drug test and initial interview a few weeks later. The rejection letter is dated September 24, 2009 and has the standard terminology:
"
Dear Mr. XXXXXXX,
This is to advise you of the status of your application for a position with the FBI.
Your application was reviewed along with those of other applicants. I regret to inform you that after careful consideration of the requirements for FBI employment, you were not selected. As a result, we must rescind our Conditional Job Offer. In making this decision, we conducted an objective assessment of the information available to us and the needs of our organization. The choice between the many qualified candidates is a difficult one, and I regret that we are unable to offer you a more favorable decision.
You may request specific information from your file under the provisions of the Freedom of Information/Privacy Acts (FOIPA) by submitting a written request. Should you decide to submit a request, include your full name, date and place of birth, and present address. You must verify your identity with a notarized signature, or in lieu of the notarized signature, a declaration pursuant to Title 28, U.S. Code Section 1746. Please forward your request to the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Record/Information Dissemination Section, Attn: Work Processing Unit, 170 Marcel Drive, Winchester, Virginia 22602.
Thank you for your interest in the FBI. We wish you well in your future endeavors.
Sincerely yours,
/s/
XXXXXX XX XXXXX, Chief
Special Agent Clearance Unit
Security Division "
After reading the letter, I forwarded a written request under the FOIPA for all of the information in my file.
I called my hiring contact at the FBI **** office and they did not know anything about my rejection. They did not sound too interested in finding out, either.
I am not only disappointed, but confused. It took them just under 6 months to send this letter, after I completed an initial interview, polygraph and drug test. I had received several phone calls during this time frame requesting additional information regarding addresses that I resided at and locations of where my brothers and sisters and now residing. Also, I received a call requesting information on my listed references for their dates and place of birth. I thought this was odd, however, in that this question was not asked on the original form. Finally, I received a call on September 3, 2009 requesting additional medical records info from the VA, which I provided the next day, by fax.
Some questions I have are: I cannot determine if this decision constitutes a denial of security clearance. Does anyone have any idea? It certainly appears this way to me, but the letter is vague. Does anyone know if I am even eligible to reapply for other support positions within the FBI, or other federal law enforcement organizations? Did I fail the polygraph perhaps? I was given absolutely no indication that I failed a polygraph, however.
I am a 49 year old male, retired from the Navy in 2003 after 25 years of active duty. I held a secret clearance while on AD. I never have been in any legal trouble, but have had a problem with alcohol in the past, and all of this was documented and noted on the SF-86 and discussed in the polygraph examination. I am currently seeing a psychiatrist with the VA for depression and am taking anti-depressant medication. Again, all of this info was documented and discussed in detail on the SF-86 and during my polygraph examination.
I can't understand why, after 6 months, I was rejected, without any clear reason. I listed references that gave me glowing reviews.
I received no feedback about the status of my investigation, other than some requests for additional info regarding my previous addresses, medical info, and info on my listed references for dates and place of birth. My FBI Coordinator was fairly distant with me, and I had the impression that she wanted it that way -- I didn't want to press the issue with them and figured that if I was patient, everything would work out. After thinking it over, I think I gave the initial FBI interview too much unnecessary negative info about myself and my family. I decided to give every bit of info up front because I was worried that I might be looked at later as not being forthcoming. I think the negative info I provided (even though I am sure wasn't disqualifying) was all used against me, as a basis for a character assessment. Like I said, I have some baggage, but am sure it isn't something to disqualify someone for ... my alcohol problem was resolved years ago but I think it reflected negatively on me when I told the interviewer that I had some relapses in the past (I never had any legal or employment problems as a result of alcohol, either)...I think I was compared against a pool of other applicants up for the same type of BI and my initial interview and polygraph answers just had too many potential problems. I think the Security Unit just went ahead and made the decision to drop me on that basis. However, I have applied online with the Merit Board for an appeal to see just what the heck happened with my application. Here's why I am peeved about this: 1) I spent considerable money and time preparing for this (i.e., I drove over 100 miles from Orlando to Tampa for the polygraph and drug test, and forwarding lengthy faxes of additional medical documentation at my expense) 2) Waited patiently for months with no indication that I would be rejected until I hit the 6 month mark. I don't mean to sound bitter --- but c'mon on! -- really now....is this any indication of how the FBI treats the people that work for them? I think maybe I am better off finding out now and save me the heartache of having to put up with that bureaucracy ....I think God has better plans for me!! ---
Any insight into this process would be most appreciated. Thank you very much. ---- BBernie
I have been reviewing with interest the posts on this thread. I, too, received one of those dreaded rejection letters from the FBI today. Needless to say, I am totally devastated. I applied in March 2009 online through USAJOBS.COM for a support position (Technical Information Specialist, GS-7) at the FBI's ***** Division. I received a conditional offer of employment in April 2009 and completed the BI paperwork at that time. I took a polygraph, drug test and initial interview a few weeks later. The rejection letter is dated September 24, 2009 and has the standard terminology:
"
Dear Mr. XXXXXXX,
This is to advise you of the status of your application for a position with the FBI.
Your application was reviewed along with those of other applicants. I regret to inform you that after careful consideration of the requirements for FBI employment, you were not selected. As a result, we must rescind our Conditional Job Offer. In making this decision, we conducted an objective assessment of the information available to us and the needs of our organization. The choice between the many qualified candidates is a difficult one, and I regret that we are unable to offer you a more favorable decision.
You may request specific information from your file under the provisions of the Freedom of Information/Privacy Acts (FOIPA) by submitting a written request. Should you decide to submit a request, include your full name, date and place of birth, and present address. You must verify your identity with a notarized signature, or in lieu of the notarized signature, a declaration pursuant to Title 28, U.S. Code Section 1746. Please forward your request to the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Record/Information Dissemination Section, Attn: Work Processing Unit, 170 Marcel Drive, Winchester, Virginia 22602.
Thank you for your interest in the FBI. We wish you well in your future endeavors.
Sincerely yours,
/s/
XXXXXX XX XXXXX, Chief
Special Agent Clearance Unit
Security Division "
After reading the letter, I forwarded a written request under the FOIPA for all of the information in my file.
I called my hiring contact at the FBI **** office and they did not know anything about my rejection. They did not sound too interested in finding out, either.
I am not only disappointed, but confused. It took them just under 6 months to send this letter, after I completed an initial interview, polygraph and drug test. I had received several phone calls during this time frame requesting additional information regarding addresses that I resided at and locations of where my brothers and sisters and now residing. Also, I received a call requesting information on my listed references for their dates and place of birth. I thought this was odd, however, in that this question was not asked on the original form. Finally, I received a call on September 3, 2009 requesting additional medical records info from the VA, which I provided the next day, by fax.
Some questions I have are: I cannot determine if this decision constitutes a denial of security clearance. Does anyone have any idea? It certainly appears this way to me, but the letter is vague. Does anyone know if I am even eligible to reapply for other support positions within the FBI, or other federal law enforcement organizations? Did I fail the polygraph perhaps? I was given absolutely no indication that I failed a polygraph, however.
I am a 49 year old male, retired from the Navy in 2003 after 25 years of active duty. I held a secret clearance while on AD. I never have been in any legal trouble, but have had a problem with alcohol in the past, and all of this was documented and noted on the SF-86 and discussed in the polygraph examination. I am currently seeing a psychiatrist with the VA for depression and am taking anti-depressant medication. Again, all of this info was documented and discussed in detail on the SF-86 and during my polygraph examination.
I can't understand why, after 6 months, I was rejected, without any clear reason. I listed references that gave me glowing reviews.
I received no feedback about the status of my investigation, other than some requests for additional info regarding my previous addresses, medical info, and info on my listed references for dates and place of birth. My FBI Coordinator was fairly distant with me, and I had the impression that she wanted it that way -- I didn't want to press the issue with them and figured that if I was patient, everything would work out. After thinking it over, I think I gave the initial FBI interview too much unnecessary negative info about myself and my family. I decided to give every bit of info up front because I was worried that I might be looked at later as not being forthcoming. I think the negative info I provided (even though I am sure wasn't disqualifying) was all used against me, as a basis for a character assessment. Like I said, I have some baggage, but am sure it isn't something to disqualify someone for ... my alcohol problem was resolved years ago but I think it reflected negatively on me when I told the interviewer that I had some relapses in the past (I never had any legal or employment problems as a result of alcohol, either)...I think I was compared against a pool of other applicants up for the same type of BI and my initial interview and polygraph answers just had too many potential problems. I think the Security Unit just went ahead and made the decision to drop me on that basis. However, I have applied online with the Merit Board for an appeal to see just what the heck happened with my application. Here's why I am peeved about this: 1) I spent considerable money and time preparing for this (i.e., I drove over 100 miles from Orlando to Tampa for the polygraph and drug test, and forwarding lengthy faxes of additional medical documentation at my expense) 2) Waited patiently for months with no indication that I would be rejected until I hit the 6 month mark. I don't mean to sound bitter --- but c'mon on! -- really now....is this any indication of how the FBI treats the people that work for them? I think maybe I am better off finding out now and save me the heartache of having to put up with that bureaucracy ....I think God has better plans for me!! ---
Any insight into this process would be most appreciated. Thank you very much. ---- BBernie
Posted by Samoset
- Jul 17, 2009, 07:41 PMYes, it was a for an internship with the FBI.
Posted by Sergeant1107
- Jul 17, 2009, 06:21 PMIf your background investigation is for a law enforcement position they will have you fill out a form enabling them to do a complete credit history check on you.
Posted by Samoset
- Jul 17, 2009, 03:52 PMOne thing that has me wondering, How does the BI check your credit history? Do they look up your equifax score or do they check your credit card statements?