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A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Sep 29, 2009, 12:33 AMQuote from: freestatechica on Sep 27, 2009, 10:46 AM1) does s/he have a chance of passing after two previous "failures" if s/he applies the techniques here?
It is not uncommon for NSA applicants to be subjected to as many as three polygraph sessions. This is the maximum number that the NSA polygraph unit can give without special authorization. By making polygraph subjects come back for "re-tests," the NSA polygraph unit ensures full employment for its operators. So whether or not your relative chooses to employ countermeasures, (s)he does have a chance of passing.
Quote2) can you be denied an NSA clearance solely on failing a poly - it appears everything else is in order and this is the hiccup in the way. . .
Yes, clearances can be denied based solely on polygraph results.
Quote3) this is my own idea and I haven't shared it with said relative yet but -- do they ask you if you've taken medicines that morning or something like that. Because my feeling is why not take an antihistimine or allergy medicine or something over the counter that takes the edge of. . .i.e., makes you sleepy and, subsequently, more relaxed... before taking this g-dd--n test??
it is standard procedure for polygraph operators to quiz examinees during the pre-test phase about use of medications. As a general rule, I think it is inadvisable to self-medicate.
Your relative might want to read Ralph J. Perro's, "Interviewing With an Intelligence Agency (Or, a Funny Thing Happened on the Way to Fort Meade)," which includes a discussion of the NSA polygraph process:
http://ftp.fas.org/irp/eprint/nsa-interview.pdf
Posted by freestate
- Sep 27, 2009, 10:46 AMAlright - said relative had h(is/her) 2nd poly last week for NSA. Unfortunately, this one seemed to go worse than the last one - I don't know all the details b/c said relative was so upset afterwards s/he wouldn't go into it. Relative is aware of this site and has skimmed the lie behind the lie detector. . . I think said relative was so stressed out BEFORE taking the 2nd one that s/he decided not to review this material -- big mistake in my humble opinion.
ANyway, the examiner indicated that there would be a third try on this stupid thing. However, said relative is already so worked up b/c s/he believes that if s/he fails this thing this time. . . s/he is going to lose his/her job!! Understandably, s/he is stressed out. However, s.he is going to study TLBTLD pdf and my questions are. . .
1) does s/he have a chance of passing after two previous "failures" if s/he applies the techniques here?
2) can you be denied an NSA clearance solely on failing a poly - it appears everything else is in order and this is the hiccup in the way. . .
3) this is my own idea and I haven't shared it with said relative yet but -- do they ask you if you've taken medicines that morning or something like that. Because my feeling is why not take an antihistimine or allergy medicine or something over the counter that takes the edge of. . .i.e., makes you sleepy and, subsequently, more relaxed... before taking this g-dd--n test??
Thanks for the replies and ANY suggestions.
Said relative is really feeling the pressure because s/he loves job and doesn't want to lose it. S/he is a contractor working on an NSA project.
I am dropping the agency because I'd love to hear specific replies to NSA policies on this. Will his/her case stil be adjudicated or whatever even though the poly isn't passed?
ANyway, the examiner indicated that there would be a third try on this stupid thing. However, said relative is already so worked up b/c s/he believes that if s/he fails this thing this time. . . s/he is going to lose his/her job!! Understandably, s/he is stressed out. However, s.he is going to study TLBTLD pdf and my questions are. . .
1) does s/he have a chance of passing after two previous "failures" if s/he applies the techniques here?
2) can you be denied an NSA clearance solely on failing a poly - it appears everything else is in order and this is the hiccup in the way. . .
3) this is my own idea and I haven't shared it with said relative yet but -- do they ask you if you've taken medicines that morning or something like that. Because my feeling is why not take an antihistimine or allergy medicine or something over the counter that takes the edge of. . .i.e., makes you sleepy and, subsequently, more relaxed... before taking this g-dd--n test??
Thanks for the replies and ANY suggestions.
Said relative is really feeling the pressure because s/he loves job and doesn't want to lose it. S/he is a contractor working on an NSA project.
I am dropping the agency because I'd love to hear specific replies to NSA policies on this. Will his/her case stil be adjudicated or whatever even though the poly isn't passed?
Posted by Katelyn Sack
- Sep 12, 2009, 07:24 PMYour relative should consult with the NSA -- with an office of hiring, human resources, or equal opportunity if you can find contact information for them -- about agency-specific protocols. Sometimes, when you can't find the right phone number, an office of public affairs or field office contact can help.
In general, a FOIA request of this type should look something like this:
Dear Appeals Officer/Other Governmental Agency Contact,
Please find attached a notarized statement regarding my place of birth and citizenship status.
Please consider this letter my investigative file [or other term the agency uses] request.
Sincerely,
Cousin Freestate
The less specific you are, the more likely your request will meet with a substantive response (because you risk inadvertently ruling out information when you make it more specific). So keep it simple.
To answer your other question, I think usually when people on these boards say LE, it's shorthand for law enforcement.
Good luck.
In general, a FOIA request of this type should look something like this:
Dear Appeals Officer/Other Governmental Agency Contact,
Please find attached a notarized statement regarding my place of birth and citizenship status.
Please consider this letter my investigative file [or other term the agency uses] request.
Sincerely,
Cousin Freestate
The less specific you are, the more likely your request will meet with a substantive response (because you risk inadvertently ruling out information when you make it more specific). So keep it simple.
To answer your other question, I think usually when people on these boards say LE, it's shorthand for law enforcement.
Good luck.
Posted by freestate
- Sep 11, 2009, 12:36 PMQuote from: KSack0 on Sep 09, 2009, 07:44 PMIf s/he hasn't heard back, don't waste your time worrying about what some mythical, widely-held expectation is re. hearing back. These are big bureaucracies. Expectation differs from function. There is no golden rule. FOIA the file.
A very cool little birdie recently told me about this other thing you can to do follow up on a FOIA. It's called an administrative tracking request, and it looks something like this:
<<I, [so-and-so US citizen, in this duly notarized letter] hereby request a copy of the administrative tracking/processing file/folder (including but not limited to documents, correspondence, memos, notes, and emails) for the following FOIA requests (or appeals): xyz. You may omit the underlying records requested in those requests (or appeals).>>
In this case, your relative probably wants to FOIA the file, get it, contest inaccuracies in writing, complain to the top (following chain of command does not work in your favor here), wait out the appeal (if applicable), and THEN request the administrative processing record.
Thanks for this response (and all the ones below it in the OP thread).
How does said relative go about filing a FOIA request? What is an "LE"?
It's not me that is trying to get the clearance, honestly. It IS a relative and I'm trying to keep it gender-neutral since supposedly real poly admins and "top dogs" browse this site. I let on it's NSA because I don't know if policy differs from agency to agency - don't really know too much about this. It's all greek to me!
Posted by landers
- Sep 11, 2009, 10:05 AM"Do they give any closure?"
The only closure they will ever want to give you is the closure of the door behind you as you leave.
The only closure they will ever want to give you is the closure of the door behind you as you leave.
Posted by liarliar13
- Sep 10, 2009, 12:38 PMI had a friend tell me that he was told he passed, was patted on his back, and given a tour of the station??
I have had another friend tell me that he waited about 3 weeks bitting his nails until they told him by phone.
Who knows??? seriously, watch your butt. Do not trust anyone!!!!!
I know of LE officers getting fired for having an arguement with their spouse in the car with their partner present. and get fired for offending him/her during call.!!!!!!
I have had another friend tell me that he waited about 3 weeks bitting his nails until they told him by phone.
Who knows??? seriously, watch your butt. Do not trust anyone!!!!!
I know of LE officers getting fired for having an arguement with their spouse in the car with their partner present. and get fired for offending him/her during call.!!!!!!
Posted by Katelyn Sack
- Sep 09, 2009, 07:44 PMIf s/he hasn't heard back, don't waste your time worrying about what some mythical, widely-held expectation is re. hearing back. These are big bureaucracies. Expectation differs from function. There is no golden rule. FOIA the file.
A very cool little birdie recently told me about this other thing you can to do follow up on a FOIA. It's called an administrative tracking request, and it looks something like this:
<<I, [so-and-so US citizen, in this duly notarized letter] hereby request a copy of the administrative tracking/processing file/folder (including but not limited to documents, correspondence, memos, notes, and emails) for the following FOIA requests (or appeals): xyz. You may omit the underlying records requested in those requests (or appeals).>>
In this case, your relative probably wants to FOIA the file, get it, contest inaccuracies in writing, complain to the top (following chain of command does not work in your favor here), wait out the appeal (if applicable), and THEN request the administrative processing record.
A very cool little birdie recently told me about this other thing you can to do follow up on a FOIA. It's called an administrative tracking request, and it looks something like this:
<<I, [so-and-so US citizen, in this duly notarized letter] hereby request a copy of the administrative tracking/processing file/folder (including but not limited to documents, correspondence, memos, notes, and emails) for the following FOIA requests (or appeals): xyz. You may omit the underlying records requested in those requests (or appeals).>>
In this case, your relative probably wants to FOIA the file, get it, contest inaccuracies in writing, complain to the top (following chain of command does not work in your favor here), wait out the appeal (if applicable), and THEN request the administrative processing record.
Posted by T.M. Cullen
- Sep 09, 2009, 06:13 PMFOIA requests are tricky. You have to keep following up and pester them if necessary.
I got a reply from the FBI saying there was no file available. Then, months later, out of the blue I got a stack of stuff from them and found I they had investigated me for espionage based soley on my NSA polygraph.
I am still waiting for NSA to respond. Haven't really followed up with them. But I will. What could they possibly have to hide?
TC
I got a reply from the FBI saying there was no file available. Then, months later, out of the blue I got a stack of stuff from them and found I they had investigated me for espionage based soley on my NSA polygraph.
I am still waiting for NSA to respond. Haven't really followed up with them. But I will. What could they possibly have to hide?
TC
Posted by freestate
- Sep 09, 2009, 05:41 PMQuote from: KSack0 on Sep 09, 2009, 12:20 PMThey may give reasons for denial (in writing) that differ entirely from the reasons for denial in your file. It is my a posteriori understanding you are only entitled to the real reasons for denial if you request the file under FOIA.
Thus it is in your best interests to request the file asap. In this way, you will be informed enough to contest and adequately address any incorrect reasons for denial in the course of your appeal, should your agency's process grant that opportunity.
Thanks. This is NSA. Said relative doesn't know if s/he failed or not- s/he had BI, took a poly and hasn't heard one way or the other. THAT'S what I'm trying to find out - are you expected to find out one way or the other if you are or are not getting a clearance??
Posted by Katelyn Sack
- Sep 09, 2009, 12:20 PMThey may give reasons for denial (in writing) that differ entirely from the reasons for denial in your file. It is my a posteriori understanding you are only entitled to the real reasons for denial if you request the file under FOIA.
Thus it is in your best interests to request the file asap. In this way, you will be informed enough to contest and adequately address any incorrect reasons for denial in the course of your appeal, should your agency's process grant that opportunity.
Thus it is in your best interests to request the file asap. In this way, you will be informed enough to contest and adequately address any incorrect reasons for denial in the course of your appeal, should your agency's process grant that opportunity.
Posted by freestate
- Sep 08, 2009, 08:35 PMI've posted this in other areas on this forum but I'm just wondering if you fail a poly do you get any sort of written notice - at any point - that you are being denied a clearance?
Or, better yet, if you are denied a clearance for whatever reason (poly, something else and poly, something else in the BI) do you get any sort of written notification about it??
From what I understand from said relative's work cohorts - the guv can take its own sweet time in letting you know ANYTHING, if anything! Some failed and had redos within a few days (and passed), some failed and had redos within a few months (and failed) and have not heard one way or the other. . . just wanting to know if there is any closure and who is supposed to let you know? The guv? The security officer at your workplace that is sponsoring you?
Or, better yet, if you are denied a clearance for whatever reason (poly, something else and poly, something else in the BI) do you get any sort of written notification about it??
From what I understand from said relative's work cohorts - the guv can take its own sweet time in letting you know ANYTHING, if anything! Some failed and had redos within a few days (and passed), some failed and had redos within a few months (and failed) and have not heard one way or the other. . . just wanting to know if there is any closure and who is supposed to let you know? The guv? The security officer at your workplace that is sponsoring you?