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A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by T.M. Cullen
- Jan 17, 2009, 04:44 PMIf members of congress were required to take a Polygraph, I think the EPPA would be revised rather quickly.
It would be interesting to see.
TC
It would be interesting to see.
TC
Posted by Twoblock
- Jan 17, 2009, 01:11 PMHey TC
You should have wrote him back and asked "are you willing to pass a poly in order to keep your job"? He is privy to TS information without a clearance. I wrote one the same thing and never heard from him again. I will see if i can unseat him when he comes up again soon. Bible quote "He who has ears let him hear"
You should have wrote him back and asked "are you willing to pass a poly in order to keep your job"? He is privy to TS information without a clearance. I wrote one the same thing and never heard from him again. I will see if i can unseat him when he comes up again soon. Bible quote "He who has ears let him hear"
Posted by T.M. Cullen
- Jan 17, 2009, 01:03 AMDon't forget to mention the National Academy Report which was done at the request of congress in the first place, and duly ignored by our elected officials.
Face it, most people never take a polygraph, or have family members who've been screwed by the test. Therefore, there is little political pressure for them to make any changes.
Incidently, one of my customers is a retired three-star who had to take the polygraph because he had to testify before congress. He had some pretty bad things to say about it. He mentioned, get this, members of congress needing access to TS/SCI info are suppose to be polygraphed but this requirement is routinely WAIVED!!
Freaking hypocrits!!
I wrote my congressman Abercrombie (D-Hawaii) and got a lame letter back to the effect that: "gee, i don't know anything about this issue."
But by all means write Grassley and McCain. I like Grassley.
TC
Face it, most people never take a polygraph, or have family members who've been screwed by the test. Therefore, there is little political pressure for them to make any changes.
Incidently, one of my customers is a retired three-star who had to take the polygraph because he had to testify before congress. He had some pretty bad things to say about it. He mentioned, get this, members of congress needing access to TS/SCI info are suppose to be polygraphed but this requirement is routinely WAIVED!!
Freaking hypocrits!!
I wrote my congressman Abercrombie (D-Hawaii) and got a lame letter back to the effect that: "gee, i don't know anything about this issue."
But by all means write Grassley and McCain. I like Grassley.
TC
Posted by AirForceGeorge
- Jan 16, 2009, 11:46 PMI have thought about contacting elected officials and I will do just that regardless of how this situation plays out. All the congressman who respresent me in my home state, where I'm stationed, and Sen Grassley (since he is interested in this subject) and Senator McCain who I have met and personally admire incredibly. I'm going to begin writing them now and start the process before I even get home.
Posted by T.M. Cullen
- Jan 16, 2009, 04:31 PMSarge,
I know guys who had this happen with 15+ years in!
Well, now you know the truth about the polygraph. It is basically a interrogation disguised as a test. Most people (myself included) go in there naive and gullible, believing the machine can actually measure truthfulness. We want to bend over backwards to operate, and are totally honest and end up failing anyway. Ironically, the polygraph is actually biased against honest people.
The National Academy of Sciences had the concluded the following about security polygraphs:
"[the polygraph's] accuracy in distinguishing actual or potential security violators from innocent test takers is insufficient to justify reliance on its use in employee security screening in federal agencies."
It is paramount that one doesn't not fall for the "something is bothering you about question X,Y or Z. What is it?" It is just a ploy to get you to admit to something they can blow out of proportion and use against you to justify any "reaction" measured on the machine. To them, a consistent reaction is proof of deception, but they need you to give them some juicy tidbit to cover themselves. People fall for it, me included.
What it will boil down to in your case is what did you say during the polygraph? If they have charts that are "not within acceptable parameters", but you didn't give them anything, that's one thing. But if they tricked you into saying something they can now distort the hell out of (which they are real good at) then they probably got you.
The sad thing is the military loses good people it needs to fulfill mission requirements because of such nonsense! Ironically, all under the guise of "national security".
TC
I know guys who had this happen with 15+ years in!
Well, now you know the truth about the polygraph. It is basically a interrogation disguised as a test. Most people (myself included) go in there naive and gullible, believing the machine can actually measure truthfulness. We want to bend over backwards to operate, and are totally honest and end up failing anyway. Ironically, the polygraph is actually biased against honest people.
The National Academy of Sciences had the concluded the following about security polygraphs:
"[the polygraph's] accuracy in distinguishing actual or potential security violators from innocent test takers is insufficient to justify reliance on its use in employee security screening in federal agencies."
It is paramount that one doesn't not fall for the "something is bothering you about question X,Y or Z. What is it?" It is just a ploy to get you to admit to something they can blow out of proportion and use against you to justify any "reaction" measured on the machine. To them, a consistent reaction is proof of deception, but they need you to give them some juicy tidbit to cover themselves. People fall for it, me included.
What it will boil down to in your case is what did you say during the polygraph? If they have charts that are "not within acceptable parameters", but you didn't give them anything, that's one thing. But if they tricked you into saying something they can now distort the hell out of (which they are real good at) then they probably got you.
The sad thing is the military loses good people it needs to fulfill mission requirements because of such nonsense! Ironically, all under the guise of "national security".
TC
Posted by Twoblock
- Jan 16, 2009, 12:41 PMSarg
If worst comes to worse, why not request an audience with your U.S. Senator and attempt to get at least a committe hearing on polygraph abuse of military personel? Seems like active military personel whould have a better chance at this than a civilian. At least it would show what our "NEW ADMINISTRATION" thinks of our military. And then publish the results any and every where you can.
If worst comes to worse, why not request an audience with your U.S. Senator and attempt to get at least a committe hearing on polygraph abuse of military personel? Seems like active military personel whould have a better chance at this than a civilian. At least it would show what our "NEW ADMINISTRATION" thinks of our military. And then publish the results any and every where you can.
Posted by AirForceGeorge
- Jan 16, 2009, 11:17 AMI've been in 6+ years. From very early on I had planned and expected to do 20. I genuinely like what I do and like the people I work with. Besides the embarassment the worst part of this is losing all that. I almost wish I had done something to deserve this. At least then I could justify it in my mind.
I really don't know what happens now. If I wasn't qualified for this job then I would almost certainly have the option to re-train into another career-field with a less stringent cleaqrance requirement. But I really like what I do now and I have worked really hard to become one of the better people at doing it. I don't know if there's something out there that requires less than TS that I'm interested in doing. And after being treated/shamed like this I don't know that I could stay in the Air Force. I wouldn't want to be a bitter at the organization I work in for more than a decade. It probably wouldn't be good for either party.
I still need to find out exactly what's going on. I was told by a co-worker that all the poly counts for is NSAnet access. That I would still keep my TS. The catch is without NSAnet access I think I am worthless to my squadron which would basically require me to do something else. I think that is what the "up to my commander" issue is the SO talked about.
I'm really not mad at the SO or my commander. I don't really think any of this is their fault so I don't see the point in storming into anyone's office. If anything, having these people sympathetic to my cause is one of the few things that might be of help right now.
It's funny that you mention teaching because it is something I have always considered and have thought about doing. If I will be disqualified from this job I imagine I'll be offered re-training or early separation. Me and my wife will have to really think about it but that is a legit option.
I am in one of the best paid career fields though. I get all kinds of special pays and spend a good chunk of the year deployed or TDY. I probably earn about 70k a year as a junior NCO which is pretty good. Not to mention the massive re-enlistment bonus I'd be due for in 2 more years. A starting teacher salary would be quite a pay cut. At least 50%. Of course my kids would get to grow up in one place, I'd have a lot more free time, and I wouldn't need to spend so much of the year away from my family.
But I have also become my job. I'm sure many of you who served understand this. The Air Force isn't just what I do anymore it's what I am. I can't imagine not waking up and putting on a uniform in the morning. I can't imagine not being able to get onto base. It would feel weird to not need to shave or keep my hair short or talk to my co-workers in that distinct military lingo. I can't imagine not training myself and others and/or not gearing up for a deployment with a sense of purpose. I would feel like an alien.
I can't believe I have to even be considering this stuff. It's a straight up nightmare.
I really don't know what happens now. If I wasn't qualified for this job then I would almost certainly have the option to re-train into another career-field with a less stringent cleaqrance requirement. But I really like what I do now and I have worked really hard to become one of the better people at doing it. I don't know if there's something out there that requires less than TS that I'm interested in doing. And after being treated/shamed like this I don't know that I could stay in the Air Force. I wouldn't want to be a bitter at the organization I work in for more than a decade. It probably wouldn't be good for either party.
I still need to find out exactly what's going on. I was told by a co-worker that all the poly counts for is NSAnet access. That I would still keep my TS. The catch is without NSAnet access I think I am worthless to my squadron which would basically require me to do something else. I think that is what the "up to my commander" issue is the SO talked about.
I'm really not mad at the SO or my commander. I don't really think any of this is their fault so I don't see the point in storming into anyone's office. If anything, having these people sympathetic to my cause is one of the few things that might be of help right now.
It's funny that you mention teaching because it is something I have always considered and have thought about doing. If I will be disqualified from this job I imagine I'll be offered re-training or early separation. Me and my wife will have to really think about it but that is a legit option.
I am in one of the best paid career fields though. I get all kinds of special pays and spend a good chunk of the year deployed or TDY. I probably earn about 70k a year as a junior NCO which is pretty good. Not to mention the massive re-enlistment bonus I'd be due for in 2 more years. A starting teacher salary would be quite a pay cut. At least 50%. Of course my kids would get to grow up in one place, I'd have a lot more free time, and I wouldn't need to spend so much of the year away from my family.
But I have also become my job. I'm sure many of you who served understand this. The Air Force isn't just what I do anymore it's what I am. I can't imagine not waking up and putting on a uniform in the morning. I can't imagine not being able to get onto base. It would feel weird to not need to shave or keep my hair short or talk to my co-workers in that distinct military lingo. I can't imagine not training myself and others and/or not gearing up for a deployment with a sense of purpose. I would feel like an alien.
I can't believe I have to even be considering this stuff. It's a straight up nightmare.
Posted by T.M. Cullen
- Jan 15, 2009, 01:31 PMSarg,
I spent 20 years in the military with a TS/SCI.
How much time have you got left in the AF? R U going to make it a career?
What will the AF do with you if you lose your clearance?
I know guy in your situation years ago stationed at the fort. He marched into his SSO and told them what they could do with his clearance. Refused to retest and told them he had no desire to handle classified info any longer if he was going to be falsely called a liar and security violator. Of course, that took him out of the running for "sailor of the Month". He had no interest in staying in the military and is now teaching high school English in the greater Chicago area.
Just something to think about.
You might say, "I don't want people to think I have something to hide!". Believe me, there are ignorant people already probably raising their eyebrows in your direction, and higher ups who are already assuming you're a dirtbag security abuser Aldrich Ames wannabe simply because of your polygraph. Which is sad!
If you decide to gut it out, you now know the game they play. You can go in there with our judgment intact.
TC
I spent 20 years in the military with a TS/SCI.
How much time have you got left in the AF? R U going to make it a career?
What will the AF do with you if you lose your clearance?
I know guy in your situation years ago stationed at the fort. He marched into his SSO and told them what they could do with his clearance. Refused to retest and told them he had no desire to handle classified info any longer if he was going to be falsely called a liar and security violator. Of course, that took him out of the running for "sailor of the Month". He had no interest in staying in the military and is now teaching high school English in the greater Chicago area.
Just something to think about.
You might say, "I don't want people to think I have something to hide!". Believe me, there are ignorant people already probably raising their eyebrows in your direction, and higher ups who are already assuming you're a dirtbag security abuser Aldrich Ames wannabe simply because of your polygraph. Which is sad!
If you decide to gut it out, you now know the game they play. You can go in there with our judgment intact.
TC
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Jan 15, 2009, 09:23 AMSergeant,
While I don't know what action NSA will ultimately take regarding your security clearance, the NSA's polygraph regulation contains information relevant to your present situation. Annex B, Para. 6.b. states:
So in order for you to scheduled for yet another polygraph session, a decision by the agency's Director of Security is required. I don't know with what frequency such approval is given, but I would expect that the NSA would be reluctant to revoke the security clearances of active duty military personnel based on polygraph results alone. However, you mention that your unit has had a recent rash of polygraph failures, which might be indicative of a policy change (though it could also suggest that there is an espionage investigation afoot). What has happened to others who failed?
For reference, you'll find additional NSA polygraph policy documentation here:
https://antipolygraph.org/read.shtml#NSA
See also Chapter 8 of Sheldon Cohen's Security Clearances and National Security Information: Law and Procedures, which addresses "Use of the Polygraph in Security Clearance Investigations":
https://antipolygraph.org/documents/security-clearances.shtml
While I don't know what action NSA will ultimately take regarding your security clearance, the NSA's polygraph regulation contains information relevant to your present situation. Annex B, Para. 6.b. states:
QuoteThe Chief, Clearance (M55), with the concurrence of a certified polygraph supervisory official, shall determine whether it is appropriate to request an individual to undergo a repeat polygraph examination. When three unsuccessful examinations have been conducted on an examinee, the decision for a fourth examination will be made only by the Director of Security. Any examination beyond that must be approved by the Deputy Director for Administration.
So in order for you to scheduled for yet another polygraph session, a decision by the agency's Director of Security is required. I don't know with what frequency such approval is given, but I would expect that the NSA would be reluctant to revoke the security clearances of active duty military personnel based on polygraph results alone. However, you mention that your unit has had a recent rash of polygraph failures, which might be indicative of a policy change (though it could also suggest that there is an espionage investigation afoot). What has happened to others who failed?
For reference, you'll find additional NSA polygraph policy documentation here:
https://antipolygraph.org/read.shtml#NSA
See also Chapter 8 of Sheldon Cohen's Security Clearances and National Security Information: Law and Procedures, which addresses "Use of the Polygraph in Security Clearance Investigations":
https://antipolygraph.org/documents/security-clearances.shtml
Posted by Anarchy State
- Jan 15, 2009, 09:22 AM
sounds about as fun as a drug test.You'd have a pretty good case in court, those things are
about as functional as an unplugged toaster. There is very
little scientific evidence that "lie-detectors" measure anything
other than stress.
Try suing them! 8-)
Posted by AirForceGeorge
- Jan 15, 2009, 05:46 AMHello all. I haven't seen too much on here about DOD personnel. My situation is a bit different than what I've seen on here so I would like some feedback.
I'm an Air Force NCO with TS/SCI writing this from a deployed location.
About a year ago I took my first poly. I was interrogated over one of the questions related to releasing classified to someone without a clearance. I was caught by surprise because there I was thinking this was a cool experience and I had nothing to worry about. Next thing I know this guys is digging into me about what and how much my wife knows.
Now this is total crap because I have never released any classified info to anyone. I consider myself a very patriotic American and I'm very proud of my service record. I joined shortly after 9/11 and have volunteered for countless deployments. In fact, this is my 4th Christmas away from my wife and kids.
I explained to the examiner that my wife isn't stupid. While I have never explicitly given her any classified as my spouse she can piece together enough information from where I go to how I train equipment I have, info on what we do from the spouses network etc to probably know more than someone without a clearance should know.
This was probably a big mistake. I was rather nervous because my unit has had a rash of people failing poly's so I was trying to be honest and direct. I figured I had nothing to worry about.
I wasn't told I failed but I was told to come back the next day for another poly. Of course I freaked out and came home and read this site and others about poly's. This may have screwed me even more because I then understood the control questions vs security questions. I basically knew the control questions were worthless so I imagine my physiological response showed that I was more concerned about the security questions.
Even so after the second day the polygrapher told me, after I insisted I was being truthful, that "if I thought u were lying to me I would be a lot meaner." He said the results were varying but I was not passing. NSA would have to make the call.
A few months later I got tested again. Although the new polygrapher was nicer the first was still always professional and polite. The interrogation wasn't too bad. In fact it seems to me all the polygraphers genuinely wanted me to pass the exam. The new polygrapher really tried to put me at ease like he was trying to get me to pass but, alas, same result. While being vague he said the result was not good enough to pass and after calling HQ scheduled a new test for the next week. I actually got called for a short notice deployment so the issue went away for awhile as it was re-scheduled.
A couple months ago and about 5 months after the 2nd exam I did a third (fourth since the first examiner had me come back the next day) I tried to tell this guy indirectly that I knew what was going on in the test and that was why I was having problems. I told him I knew he must not really care about the "betray the trust to those close to you" questions or the "suitability" as opposed to security questions because
it was obvious everyone has lied to people they trust or done something that if discovered now would make them look bad etc. I never explicitly said I knew how the poly worked and he never asked me what I knew but I think it was understood.
Of course he spent hours trying to convince me how important suitability questions are in building a profile etc etc. At one point he seemed to tell me that if I kept thinking only the security questions mattered I would fail as if to say "man, work with me here." Again he genuinely seemed to want me to pass and was trying to guide me there.
I did what I always did. I told the gods honest truth on the security questions and on the control questions I thought about the most blatant violation of them I had made as I could when I gave the lie they wanted me to.
At the end of the test he told me "well, it's definitely not close to failing." When I asked for clarification he seemed to pull back and said "we'll have to see what NSA thinks."
Now, 2 months later, yesterday to be exact, the security manager here at my deployed location told me there's a hold on my NSAnet account and that I could possibly be sent home. Already a friend of mine from my unit told me there was a rumor floating around that I got into some major trouble and lost my clearance.
Now this is some serious BS. I have worked so hard over the last 6 years, sacrificed so much on behalf of my family, and been the best Air Force member I could be. And now because of this magic voodoo machine I look like a criminal or a spy and rumors are flying all around. I have done nothing to deserve the shame and embarassment of having a clearance issue. I would never do something to jeopardize this countries security, quite to the contrary I have worked hard to try and ensure that very security. And this is my payback. A slap in the face from a greatful DoD.
I'm wondering if anyone knows what happens now. The security manager told me for now I have simply lost NSAnet access and though he said it looked like I will not be sent home de didn't sound to sure. I know of others who were recently put on security hold and denied access to SCIF's and given temporary non-security related jobs. I'm figuring if I dont get sent home I have probably escaped this fate for now at least.
Who decides what will happen with the future of my clearance? Will I totally lose it? Can the poly be waived? What options if any do I have?
I did my job for 5 years without a poly and I've done it a year after my first inconclusive result. These all just seems so crazy and surreal. Any guidance/info would be appreciated.
I'm an Air Force NCO with TS/SCI writing this from a deployed location.
About a year ago I took my first poly. I was interrogated over one of the questions related to releasing classified to someone without a clearance. I was caught by surprise because there I was thinking this was a cool experience and I had nothing to worry about. Next thing I know this guys is digging into me about what and how much my wife knows.
Now this is total crap because I have never released any classified info to anyone. I consider myself a very patriotic American and I'm very proud of my service record. I joined shortly after 9/11 and have volunteered for countless deployments. In fact, this is my 4th Christmas away from my wife and kids.
I explained to the examiner that my wife isn't stupid. While I have never explicitly given her any classified as my spouse she can piece together enough information from where I go to how I train equipment I have, info on what we do from the spouses network etc to probably know more than someone without a clearance should know.
This was probably a big mistake. I was rather nervous because my unit has had a rash of people failing poly's so I was trying to be honest and direct. I figured I had nothing to worry about.
I wasn't told I failed but I was told to come back the next day for another poly. Of course I freaked out and came home and read this site and others about poly's. This may have screwed me even more because I then understood the control questions vs security questions. I basically knew the control questions were worthless so I imagine my physiological response showed that I was more concerned about the security questions.
Even so after the second day the polygrapher told me, after I insisted I was being truthful, that "if I thought u were lying to me I would be a lot meaner." He said the results were varying but I was not passing. NSA would have to make the call.
A few months later I got tested again. Although the new polygrapher was nicer the first was still always professional and polite. The interrogation wasn't too bad. In fact it seems to me all the polygraphers genuinely wanted me to pass the exam. The new polygrapher really tried to put me at ease like he was trying to get me to pass but, alas, same result. While being vague he said the result was not good enough to pass and after calling HQ scheduled a new test for the next week. I actually got called for a short notice deployment so the issue went away for awhile as it was re-scheduled.
A couple months ago and about 5 months after the 2nd exam I did a third (fourth since the first examiner had me come back the next day) I tried to tell this guy indirectly that I knew what was going on in the test and that was why I was having problems. I told him I knew he must not really care about the "betray the trust to those close to you" questions or the "suitability" as opposed to security questions because
it was obvious everyone has lied to people they trust or done something that if discovered now would make them look bad etc. I never explicitly said I knew how the poly worked and he never asked me what I knew but I think it was understood.
Of course he spent hours trying to convince me how important suitability questions are in building a profile etc etc. At one point he seemed to tell me that if I kept thinking only the security questions mattered I would fail as if to say "man, work with me here." Again he genuinely seemed to want me to pass and was trying to guide me there.
I did what I always did. I told the gods honest truth on the security questions and on the control questions I thought about the most blatant violation of them I had made as I could when I gave the lie they wanted me to.
At the end of the test he told me "well, it's definitely not close to failing." When I asked for clarification he seemed to pull back and said "we'll have to see what NSA thinks."
Now, 2 months later, yesterday to be exact, the security manager here at my deployed location told me there's a hold on my NSAnet account and that I could possibly be sent home. Already a friend of mine from my unit told me there was a rumor floating around that I got into some major trouble and lost my clearance.
Now this is some serious BS. I have worked so hard over the last 6 years, sacrificed so much on behalf of my family, and been the best Air Force member I could be. And now because of this magic voodoo machine I look like a criminal or a spy and rumors are flying all around. I have done nothing to deserve the shame and embarassment of having a clearance issue. I would never do something to jeopardize this countries security, quite to the contrary I have worked hard to try and ensure that very security. And this is my payback. A slap in the face from a greatful DoD.
I'm wondering if anyone knows what happens now. The security manager told me for now I have simply lost NSAnet access and though he said it looked like I will not be sent home de didn't sound to sure. I know of others who were recently put on security hold and denied access to SCIF's and given temporary non-security related jobs. I'm figuring if I dont get sent home I have probably escaped this fate for now at least.
Who decides what will happen with the future of my clearance? Will I totally lose it? Can the poly be waived? What options if any do I have?
I did my job for 5 years without a poly and I've done it a year after my first inconclusive result. These all just seems so crazy and surreal. Any guidance/info would be appreciated.