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Posted by T.M. Cullen
- Sep 01, 2008, 05:56 PMYou never mentioned which agency you work for. If you hold a clearance with federal agency, the following may apply:
From: http://www.sheldoncohen.com/publications/polygraph.htm
Federal administrative agencies handling employee appeals of adverse actions deal with polygraph results in a number of ways. The Defense Office of Hearings and Appeals which decides appeals of security clearance decisions, has held that admissions by an applicant made during a polygraph examination may be admissible even though the results of polygraph examination are not.(11), Such "results" would include the polygraph charts and the polygraph operator's interpretation of those chart, [The DOHA Appeal Board has held that Paragraph D.6 of DoD Directive 5210.48 which states that: "no adverse action will be taken solely on the basis of a polygraph examination chart that indicates deception" does not bar the use in evidence of applicant's admissions. DoD Reg. 5210.48-R provides, however, that the "results of an analysis of the polygraph charts may be considered to have probative value in administrative determinations.
So, as you can see, it is crucial you do not make admissions, or volunteer information when they give you the old: "Gee, you're having trouble with this question. Why would that be? Got something you want to get off your chest?", malarky! Fact is, a chart indicating ?deception? without an admission or volunteered information ain't worth jack shit! Which explains the high theatrics examiners engage in when they have such a chart but no admissions!
This is of course if you answered the relevant question TRUTHFULLY. If you have violated security, not reported an unauthorized foreign contact...etc. you SHOULD admit it. IOW, do not lie. And I am talking about an ACTUAL lie.
TC
P.S. Check out the link above. May that attorney can better answer your question. I believe he is located in the D.C. area.
From: http://www.sheldoncohen.com/publications/polygraph.htm
Federal administrative agencies handling employee appeals of adverse actions deal with polygraph results in a number of ways. The Defense Office of Hearings and Appeals which decides appeals of security clearance decisions, has held that admissions by an applicant made during a polygraph examination may be admissible even though the results of polygraph examination are not.(11), Such "results" would include the polygraph charts and the polygraph operator's interpretation of those chart, [The DOHA Appeal Board has held that Paragraph D.6 of DoD Directive 5210.48 which states that: "no adverse action will be taken solely on the basis of a polygraph examination chart that indicates deception" does not bar the use in evidence of applicant's admissions. DoD Reg. 5210.48-R provides, however, that the "results of an analysis of the polygraph charts may be considered to have probative value in administrative determinations.
So, as you can see, it is crucial you do not make admissions, or volunteer information when they give you the old: "Gee, you're having trouble with this question. Why would that be? Got something you want to get off your chest?", malarky! Fact is, a chart indicating ?deception? without an admission or volunteered information ain't worth jack shit! Which explains the high theatrics examiners engage in when they have such a chart but no admissions!
This is of course if you answered the relevant question TRUTHFULLY. If you have violated security, not reported an unauthorized foreign contact...etc. you SHOULD admit it. IOW, do not lie. And I am talking about an ACTUAL lie.
TC
P.S. Check out the link above. May that attorney can better answer your question. I believe he is located in the D.C. area.
Posted by Twoblock
- Sep 01, 2008, 05:03 PMtakingthetest
I think the standard advise would be not to engage in a post-test interview. If I was taking the test and the polygrapher asked me why I was having a problem with question no. ?, my response would be "I am not having a problem with question ?, but apparently you are".
Keep in mind that an employer, especially the government, can fire you any time they want. If the reason they fire you is unconstitutional, they will surely LIE as to the reason and your only recoarse is through the courts. To me, firing someone because of refusing to take a polygraph, is completely unconstitutional. If it had ever happened to me, there might not be a polygraph industry today because there would have certainly been a federal lawsuit and probably a hearing before a house or senate committee or both. I rolled over and played dead one time (because I was ill and it cost me) and I'll never do it again. I am always in my fighting stance.
One more thing. Do EVERYTHING in writing. Always maintain a paper trail. Make a detailed written record of your pre, in test and post test experience. While it's fresh on your mind, even sit in their lobby and record it with special attention to quotes made by you and the polygrapher. This is admissable evidense in any fair court.
Other than that - good luck to you.
I think the standard advise would be not to engage in a post-test interview. If I was taking the test and the polygrapher asked me why I was having a problem with question no. ?, my response would be "I am not having a problem with question ?, but apparently you are".
Keep in mind that an employer, especially the government, can fire you any time they want. If the reason they fire you is unconstitutional, they will surely LIE as to the reason and your only recoarse is through the courts. To me, firing someone because of refusing to take a polygraph, is completely unconstitutional. If it had ever happened to me, there might not be a polygraph industry today because there would have certainly been a federal lawsuit and probably a hearing before a house or senate committee or both. I rolled over and played dead one time (because I was ill and it cost me) and I'll never do it again. I am always in my fighting stance.
One more thing. Do EVERYTHING in writing. Always maintain a paper trail. Make a detailed written record of your pre, in test and post test experience. While it's fresh on your mind, even sit in their lobby and record it with special attention to quotes made by you and the polygrapher. This is admissable evidense in any fair court.
Other than that - good luck to you.
Posted by takingthetest
- Sep 01, 2008, 03:43 PMThanks for all the replies everyone. My goal was to better understand how the test was going to work, so that I can be prepared. Everyone has skeletons in their closets, so you naturally worry about what you the outcome may be.
I heard a story about somebody having a reaction to a question that ended with a search of their home. Is this possible or legal? If I don't make any admissions to anything what is the likelyhood they will continue to dig into something well after the test is over? Can you fail if they make claims that there was an issue with a question and I don't give them anything?
Thanks Again!
I heard a story about somebody having a reaction to a question that ended with a search of their home. Is this possible or legal? If I don't make any admissions to anything what is the likelyhood they will continue to dig into something well after the test is over? Can you fail if they make claims that there was an issue with a question and I don't give them anything?
Thanks Again!
Posted by T.M. Cullen
- Aug 30, 2008, 11:34 PMMain thing is not to make admissions or volunteer info concerning a relevant question. Don't fall for the "You're having trouble with this question. Why is that? Got something you want to tell me? This machine doesn't lie, so get it off your chest!"
In a federal agency, they can't fire you over a chart reading. They need more. Like a statement that can twist and distort.
Kind of like holding your ground at a car dealership. NO! I don't want that FREAKING ACCESSORY, and I don't need your worthless warranty!
TC
In a federal agency, they can't fire you over a chart reading. They need more. Like a statement that can twist and distort.
Kind of like holding your ground at a car dealership. NO! I don't want that FREAKING ACCESSORY, and I don't need your worthless warranty!
TC
Posted by notguilty1
- Aug 30, 2008, 10:58 PMQuote from: takingthetest on Aug 30, 2008, 04:53 PMTaking the test Providing you have no clearance or job threatening behaviors to worry about on the test that are causing you to seek out a way to successfully lie to your employer, you have some choices to make.
You can tell the truth and run the slight risk of a false positive making your boss think you're a liar.
Or try to Lie and make up a story about lying to your wife about working late one night when you actually went out with the boys to a titty bar and stuck a 20 in the strippers cleavage Like Mr. Cullen suggested, and really be a liar. Thus removing all doubt that you are unsuitable for a security clearance or employment in a position of trust.
If you make the honorable choice and tell the truth I believe you will pass the test.
If you try any of the methods listed in Dr. Maschke's book I believe you will FAIL.
I can tell you that if you fail using their methods and come back here to complain; you can expect to be told that you did it wrong or didn't read the instructions properly.
I can also tell you that it isn't very likely that you are going to find a claim from Dr. Maschke or Mr. Cullen anywhere on this site that they have successfully passed a polygraph for employment or as part of a criminal investigation using the procedures they endorse.
I know, I've looked
Sancho Panza
Taking,
Unfortunately, Mr Panza has NO idea how slight of a chance you have of a false positive. He knows this. It is the examiners job to get whatever he can from you. You going to a bar with your buddies and lying to your wife should have no bearing what so ever with your employment yet true to form Sancho wants to know all then he will make a judgement on your honesty and your job.
In fact not only has he NO idea of the chances of a false positive but,
if it was so slight do you really think this site would exist and he would be here wasting his time ...... I think not!
Do yourself a favor your already questioning Polygraph ( I was told by my examiner that that probably hurt my results like that should have had an effect on a "scientific test") and thats what brought you here so do yourself a favor and learn all you can about the scam before you hav e to fall for it.
Unfortunately, being truthful is NO guarantee of a pass. I and many others here can attest to that.
Good luck friend
Posted by T.M. Cullen
- Aug 30, 2008, 10:21 PMQuoteYou can tell the truth and run the slight risk of a false positive making your boss think you're a liar.
Or try to Lie and make up a story about lying to your wife about working late one night when you actually went out with the boys to a titty bar and stuck a 20 in the strippers cleavage Like Mr. Cullen suggested, and really be a liar. Thus removing all doubt that you are unsuitable for a security clearance or employment in a position of trust.
Read his original post.
He asked about the control questions. One is SUPPOSED TO LIE when asked control questions on a CQT, isn't one?
TC
Posted by SanchoPanza
- Aug 30, 2008, 04:53 PMTaking the test Providing you have no clearance or job threatening behaviors to worry about on the test that are causing you to seek out a way to successfully lie to your employer, you have some choices to make.
You can tell the truth and run the slight risk of a false positive making your boss think you're a liar.
Or try to Lie and make up a story about lying to your wife about working late one night when you actually went out with the boys to a titty bar and stuck a 20 in the strippers cleavage Like Mr. Cullen suggested, and really be a liar. Thus removing all doubt that you are unsuitable for a security clearance or employment in a position of trust.
If you make the honorable choice and tell the truth I believe you will pass the test.
If you try any of the methods listed in Dr. Maschke's book I believe you will FAIL.
I can tell you that if you fail using their methods and come back here to complain; you can expect to be told that you did it wrong or didn't read the instructions properly.
I can also tell you that it isn't very likely that you are going to find a claim from Dr. Maschke or Mr. Cullen anywhere on this site that they have successfully passed a polygraph for employment or as part of a criminal investigation using the procedures they endorse.
I know, I've looked
Sancho Panza
You can tell the truth and run the slight risk of a false positive making your boss think you're a liar.
Or try to Lie and make up a story about lying to your wife about working late one night when you actually went out with the boys to a titty bar and stuck a 20 in the strippers cleavage Like Mr. Cullen suggested, and really be a liar. Thus removing all doubt that you are unsuitable for a security clearance or employment in a position of trust.
If you make the honorable choice and tell the truth I believe you will pass the test.
If you try any of the methods listed in Dr. Maschke's book I believe you will FAIL.
I can tell you that if you fail using their methods and come back here to complain; you can expect to be told that you did it wrong or didn't read the instructions properly.
I can also tell you that it isn't very likely that you are going to find a claim from Dr. Maschke or Mr. Cullen anywhere on this site that they have successfully passed a polygraph for employment or as part of a criminal investigation using the procedures they endorse.
I know, I've looked
Sancho Panza
Posted by T.M. Cullen
- Aug 30, 2008, 04:13 AMQuoteI'm still confused about the control questions. "Have you ever lied to a loved one" if I have, I answer yes right?
You are suppose to answer "no". In other words, you are expected to "lie". Then they compare your "reaction" to the control question with any reaction you might have on a relevant question.
QuoteWill they attempt to interrogate you further on control questions? Will they ask if something is bothering me on the controls as well? Do maintain the MAKE NO ADMISSIONS?
They might. If they do, just have a non-incriminating explanation. For example, with the question you used above, you might very reluctantly make up a story of lying to your wife about working late one night when you actually went out with the boys to a titty bar and stuck a 20 in the strippers cleavage.
Send a PM to George and ask. He'd know for sure.
Remember, you may not even need to employ countermeasures. Many have stated that just reading GM's book made them feel way less intimidated during the test, which helped them.
Good luck,
TC
Posted by takingthetest
- Aug 29, 2008, 05:15 PMThank you for the advice.
I'm still confused about the control questions. "Have you ever lied to a loved one" if I have, I answer yes right? OR am I expected to say no? Will they attempt to interrogate you further on control questions? Will they ask if something is bothering me on the controls as well? Do maintain the MAKE NO ADMISSIONS?
Sorry it's a lo of questions, but my family's future as well as my career ride on this...
I'm still confused about the control questions. "Have you ever lied to a loved one" if I have, I answer yes right? OR am I expected to say no? Will they attempt to interrogate you further on control questions? Will they ask if something is bothering me on the controls as well? Do maintain the MAKE NO ADMISSIONS?
Sorry it's a lo of questions, but my family's future as well as my career ride on this...
Posted by T.M. Cullen
- Aug 29, 2008, 12:40 AMThe whole point of the polygraph is to trick you into providing information they can use against you. So, MAKE NO ADMISSIONS concerning a relevant question. They will blow it out of all proportion and use it against you later, if necessary.
For example, if the question is "Have you ever intentionally divulged classified information...?" Answer the question truthfully and leave it at that. Don't buy their crap that the machine is indicating deception, so you need to "get everything off your chest" so nothing will be bothering you about the question. They are just trying to get you to say something. Just politely tell them that nothing is bothering you and that you have never divulged classified information. Don't show anger. The nastier they get, the more politely steadfast you should remain. For example, "Mr. Examiner, I realize you are just doing your job, but honest, there is nothing bothering me. I have never divulged classified info....etc." Maintain eye contact, and don't touch or pick at your face.
Remember, they can not fire you based solely on some stupid chart reading. At least in a federal agency. It is the admissions or other information you VOLUNTEER that will get you screwed. It is and INTERROGATION, not a test for truth. They can be totally convinced you are lying, but unless they get an admission or something you volunteer they can use against you, they can't touch you!
Remember, I am talking about RELEVANT questions, not controls if any.
For example, if the question is "Have you ever intentionally divulged classified information...?" Answer the question truthfully and leave it at that. Don't buy their crap that the machine is indicating deception, so you need to "get everything off your chest" so nothing will be bothering you about the question. They are just trying to get you to say something. Just politely tell them that nothing is bothering you and that you have never divulged classified information. Don't show anger. The nastier they get, the more politely steadfast you should remain. For example, "Mr. Examiner, I realize you are just doing your job, but honest, there is nothing bothering me. I have never divulged classified info....etc." Maintain eye contact, and don't touch or pick at your face.
Remember, they can not fire you based solely on some stupid chart reading. At least in a federal agency. It is the admissions or other information you VOLUNTEER that will get you screwed. It is and INTERROGATION, not a test for truth. They can be totally convinced you are lying, but unless they get an admission or something you volunteer they can use against you, they can't touch you!
Remember, I am talking about RELEVANT questions, not controls if any.
Posted by takingthetest
- Aug 28, 2008, 09:34 PMI'm already employed and have to take a poly as part of my job. I'm nervous, naturally, about a) losing my job b) losing my clearance. People I work with have made it worse by telling me stories about people who failed and were escorted out of the building and they even searched there home.
I've read the book here and have some questions.
Control questions - From my understanding these are to get a comparison. "Have you ever stolen from the government?" So if you have taken pens or paperclips home, do you say yes or no to this?
Do you employ countermeasures for changes in breathing and etc. for all control questions?
When they are fishing for more do you give them non-damaging stories if told there was a problem with a question, or stick to your guns and say nothing? And if you give them a story do you politely refuse to make a written statement? Will this jeopardize you chances of passing if you do?
Thanks!
I've read the book here and have some questions.
Control questions - From my understanding these are to get a comparison. "Have you ever stolen from the government?" So if you have taken pens or paperclips home, do you say yes or no to this?
Do you employ countermeasures for changes in breathing and etc. for all control questions?
When they are fishing for more do you give them non-damaging stories if told there was a problem with a question, or stick to your guns and say nothing? And if you give them a story do you politely refuse to make a written statement? Will this jeopardize you chances of passing if you do?
Thanks!