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Posted by Fair Chance
- Mar 01, 2006, 12:26 AMDear chitown_dude,
It is a tough decision but you seem to have an exceptionally well versed head on your shoulders. The system is absolutely fantastic if the stars all go in your favor but it can be the absolute worst nightmare of your life if they do not align. They do not align for over 85% of most applicants to the FBI and they are left picking up the pieces of their ruined reputations.
Again, I am a family man, I was in the military, and sometimes you have to sacrifice your personel dreams for the welfare of your family. You will excel at whatever you do because you think of the big picture, not just of your own personel ambitions.
Good Luck in whatever you do or decide.
Regards.
It is a tough decision but you seem to have an exceptionally well versed head on your shoulders. The system is absolutely fantastic if the stars all go in your favor but it can be the absolute worst nightmare of your life if they do not align. They do not align for over 85% of most applicants to the FBI and they are left picking up the pieces of their ruined reputations.
Again, I am a family man, I was in the military, and sometimes you have to sacrifice your personel dreams for the welfare of your family. You will excel at whatever you do because you think of the big picture, not just of your own personel ambitions.
Good Luck in whatever you do or decide.
Regards.
Posted by chitown_dude
- Feb 28, 2006, 02:50 AMYou know, I'm going to probably decline with the whole process. I don't want to garner a file on myself based on this nonsense.
I have great potential at my company, and possibly the ability to get secret / TS-SCI clearances for my current employer (one of the biggest IT employers in the world, duh). Fizzle-fick these idiots. and their EOE end of month numbers powerpoint to Director Skinner. I will not be a statistic for a false fight on terrorism that ends even as it begins.
I never laid my life on the line for this in the military, and I will not lay my credentials and Good Name on this now, either.
Further, my logic dictates that -- if qualified and educated about the process now -- I should be doubly so in 5-10 years, and able to bypass alot of risk in this matter entirely.
Thanks for all of the good information (and, assumedly and sadly, disinformation). It all is necessary in the big picture.
I have great potential at my company, and possibly the ability to get secret / TS-SCI clearances for my current employer (one of the biggest IT employers in the world, duh). Fizzle-fick these idiots. and their EOE end of month numbers powerpoint to Director Skinner. I will not be a statistic for a false fight on terrorism that ends even as it begins.
I never laid my life on the line for this in the military, and I will not lay my credentials and Good Name on this now, either.
Further, my logic dictates that -- if qualified and educated about the process now -- I should be doubly so in 5-10 years, and able to bypass alot of risk in this matter entirely.
Thanks for all of the good information (and, assumedly and sadly, disinformation). It all is necessary in the big picture.
Posted by Fair Chance
- Feb 27, 2006, 12:30 AMQuote from: chitown_dude on Feb 26, 2006, 07:11 PM
Understood. But interestingly, a few quick things I omitted:
On the SF-86, my FBI recruiter (didn't identify herself as an SA, so she may be HR support staff) told me to IGNORE questions #21 (Mental Health status), #24 (Drug involvement), and #24 (Alcohol involvement/treatmentConcerns). While obviously 'very cool', that doesn't guarantee that's not being considered. I don't know really what this means, and I'd like others to weigh in. Her response was "We aren't allowed to ask you those questions". WTF? Like, totally rad for joe-skateboarder-cum-computer-expert, but that's just my concern, and doens't impact me either way. I am going to fill those out, because it looks very good for my answers to be the way they are.
I do not know who this agency person is but I can assure you that the FBI is VERY interested in getting the answers to such questions. I will remind you that the FBI states that any questions not completely answered will result in your application not being considered for employment. Her statement is completely bogus. If they do not want the information, why do they not create a new form eliminating such question? The application form has been under legal review before its release.
In oder to get a TOP SECRET with additional letters clearance, it is imperative that any government agency be reasonably assured that you do not have any psychological problems or physical addictions which would make you more likely to be manipulated.
It almost sounds like they are just trying to get you into the door with bad information just to fill some additional numbers so they can justify themselves to the Director.
She is giving you BAD ADVICE! Get a second opinion on this matter.
Regards.
Posted by polyfool
- Feb 26, 2006, 11:36 PMChitown_dude,
Good luck in your interview. You won't be poly'ed until after you've received a conditional offer of employment after your interview or 2nd interview, depending on your situation. During your upcoming interview, fully expect to be asked about ANY prior drug use as well as whether you are willing to submit to a full background investigation and polygraph. The polygraph is not all that it seems--definitely learn more about it before you agree to it as false positive results will not only prevent you from getting this job but others requiring clearance. The tests are subjective and you are very much at the mercy of which ever examiner you may get--you may get lucky--or you may get the unethical a$$hole that I got who could have cared less about the truth. I know you had asked about the agency contacting your boss and when that happens. It usually takes place after the poly, but there are cases in which the background gets underway before the poly. If that's the case, then your boss will be notified up front that you are seeking employment elsewhere. However, there should be a note in your file requiring the investigator to contact you before he/she contacts your boss to make sure that you've told your boss and the agency is not surprising him. Hope this helps. I have to say even though what my examiner did to me was wrong and devastating, he actually did me a favor and saved me from making a mistake in my career. You are really quite fortunate that you found this site, so many others, myself included, would have liked to have been informed before blindly submitting to the FBI pre-employment process.
Good luck in your interview. You won't be poly'ed until after you've received a conditional offer of employment after your interview or 2nd interview, depending on your situation. During your upcoming interview, fully expect to be asked about ANY prior drug use as well as whether you are willing to submit to a full background investigation and polygraph. The polygraph is not all that it seems--definitely learn more about it before you agree to it as false positive results will not only prevent you from getting this job but others requiring clearance. The tests are subjective and you are very much at the mercy of which ever examiner you may get--you may get lucky--or you may get the unethical a$$hole that I got who could have cared less about the truth. I know you had asked about the agency contacting your boss and when that happens. It usually takes place after the poly, but there are cases in which the background gets underway before the poly. If that's the case, then your boss will be notified up front that you are seeking employment elsewhere. However, there should be a note in your file requiring the investigator to contact you before he/she contacts your boss to make sure that you've told your boss and the agency is not surprising him. Hope this helps. I have to say even though what my examiner did to me was wrong and devastating, he actually did me a favor and saved me from making a mistake in my career. You are really quite fortunate that you found this site, so many others, myself included, would have liked to have been informed before blindly submitting to the FBI pre-employment process.
Posted by chitown_dude
- Feb 26, 2006, 10:39 PMPolyfool... I understand. And It's becomming clearer by the moment.
I'm really straddling the fence at this point. I doubt they'll poly me on Friday (my 1st interview), but should I move on in the process, I know it's coming, probably shortly after.
Depending upon what I actually want to do with this, I may just see how far, and up to, the poly I can go. That builds my confidence for many things, mind you, but also lets me have the option of "Just Saying No" to the poly.
I'm a weird, Charmic kind of guy, and I sincerely believe the machine and I would be fine. I don't, however, believe the interpretation of what the machine produces by the interrogators (oops, polygraphists) is read correctly, including how they phrase specific questions.
Put it another way -- as a younger man (like many of us), I couldn't get into a heated discussion without wanting to take the head off of someone the person I was having the spirited exchange with. Then, over time and many years and probably a reduction in free testosterone, I'm now able to calmly and specifically discuss matters of almost anything no matter how irksome and heated they actually are. And I actually mean, I'm able to control, relatively, my blood pressure, heart beat, breathing and beet-red-face-engorging blood that used to dominate my stance in these discussions. Having kids does that.
In the land of polygraphs, I don't know what this actually means, if anything. But I'm not sure, even after what I'm said and certainly after reading all of the information here and using my own suspicions, that I'm willing to put myself through this ordeal.
In a season of 50% failures and high application rates, I'm more and more not liking the fact that I'm going to be so much fodder for the cannons, if you will.
It's looking grim for me, mentally, now.
I'm really straddling the fence at this point. I doubt they'll poly me on Friday (my 1st interview), but should I move on in the process, I know it's coming, probably shortly after.
Depending upon what I actually want to do with this, I may just see how far, and up to, the poly I can go. That builds my confidence for many things, mind you, but also lets me have the option of "Just Saying No" to the poly.
I'm a weird, Charmic kind of guy, and I sincerely believe the machine and I would be fine. I don't, however, believe the interpretation of what the machine produces by the interrogators (oops, polygraphists) is read correctly, including how they phrase specific questions.
Put it another way -- as a younger man (like many of us), I couldn't get into a heated discussion without wanting to take the head off of someone the person I was having the spirited exchange with. Then, over time and many years and probably a reduction in free testosterone, I'm now able to calmly and specifically discuss matters of almost anything no matter how irksome and heated they actually are. And I actually mean, I'm able to control, relatively, my blood pressure, heart beat, breathing and beet-red-face-engorging blood that used to dominate my stance in these discussions. Having kids does that.
In the land of polygraphs, I don't know what this actually means, if anything. But I'm not sure, even after what I'm said and certainly after reading all of the information here and using my own suspicions, that I'm willing to put myself through this ordeal.
In a season of 50% failures and high application rates, I'm more and more not liking the fact that I'm going to be so much fodder for the cannons, if you will.
It's looking grim for me, mentally, now.
Posted by polyfool
- Feb 26, 2006, 07:44 PMchitown_dude,
Think long and hard before you trust the FBI enough to allow the agency to leave no rock unturned throughout your entire life. The FBI goes back as far as it wants to. Even though you may have nothing to hide, that doesn't necessarily mean the agency will peg you correctly. I can understand your feeling of not being worried about the background because you know your past and you know what the investigators will find. However, when it comes the polygraph, the story is much different. It would be wise to educate yourself about this very foolish so-called testing procedure before taking the chance of it ruining your good name and affecting future job opportunities. If you haven't already, I would suggest downloading and reading TLBTLD, available free on this site. I had way less baggage than you, but was still DQ'd during the hiring process because of the polygraph even though I was 100% honest. Trust me on this, after going through the FBI's pre-employment process, there is some serious incompetence going on in that agency. I used to think all the bad PR the agency received was unjustified and that the agency was just misunderstood. Now, I realize why it's so important for the FBI to get its name out there in TV and film--because that's all the good PR the agency gets and that's in fantasy land. Just my opinion, but if I was in your shoes, I would walk away now.
P.S. As far as the mental health and alcohol/drug invovlement are concerned, unless things have changed over the past couple of years, you better believe the agency can and will go there--bank on it.
Think long and hard before you trust the FBI enough to allow the agency to leave no rock unturned throughout your entire life. The FBI goes back as far as it wants to. Even though you may have nothing to hide, that doesn't necessarily mean the agency will peg you correctly. I can understand your feeling of not being worried about the background because you know your past and you know what the investigators will find. However, when it comes the polygraph, the story is much different. It would be wise to educate yourself about this very foolish so-called testing procedure before taking the chance of it ruining your good name and affecting future job opportunities. If you haven't already, I would suggest downloading and reading TLBTLD, available free on this site. I had way less baggage than you, but was still DQ'd during the hiring process because of the polygraph even though I was 100% honest. Trust me on this, after going through the FBI's pre-employment process, there is some serious incompetence going on in that agency. I used to think all the bad PR the agency received was unjustified and that the agency was just misunderstood. Now, I realize why it's so important for the FBI to get its name out there in TV and film--because that's all the good PR the agency gets and that's in fantasy land. Just my opinion, but if I was in your shoes, I would walk away now.
P.S. As far as the mental health and alcohol/drug invovlement are concerned, unless things have changed over the past couple of years, you better believe the agency can and will go there--bank on it.
Posted by chitown_dude
- Feb 26, 2006, 07:11 PMQuote from: Fair Chance on Feb 26, 2006, 12:47 PM
Dear chitown_dude,
You are asking all the right questions.
Thanks, good to know. I try to get my points to address the direct and specific issues, thus this set of questions.
Quote from: Fair Chance on Feb 26, 2006, 12:47 PM
My answers are only "to the best of my knowledge" and experience but I know how difficult it is to get accurate information in this process.
You ain't lying. When in doubt, I refer my time with the Marines and remember the joy of not knowing anything until the ultimately possible last moment. Now that I'm a grown up and all (heh), I hate that situation, but I have to accept it. And as a more mature person today, I realize they don't have time to babysit and explain everything to everyone. Understood completely. It's just good to talk to folks 'offline' and get some knowledge afore-hand.
Quote from: Fair Chance on Feb 26, 2006, 12:47 PM
Point 1: Forget about what you see on CSI or other computer TV shows about FBI forensics. Your task will be more probably trying to get the FBI computer infrastructure to work at late 1990's private sector operational capacity. The FBI had a 170 million dollar fiasco called TRIOLOGY ...
Right, I read/heard/listening to media about that. While I do have my opinions on that,they'd be kept to myself until such time as I could actually do something about them. And then again, after getting hired, it's probably obvious everyone in the IT org knows about it and it's a sore thumb. I'd just keep shut about it until I'm actually asked something about it, would be my approach.
Quote from: Fair Chance on Feb 26, 2006, 12:47 PM
Reading about this should send a chill up your spine about the "high technology" you hope to play with. You will be assigned to making a "new" system work which the FBI cannot even put a price tag on yet ...
Yep. I assume the FBI (being governmental, but yet advanced by it's very mission and new requirements) would presently be in a state of high-tech/low-tech flux. You know, VAX's and green-screens in the same datacenters with 64-bit compute clusters analyzing NSA by-products for intel and analysis. Maybe, however, they'd be reversed and the VAX would be doing intel and the cluster would be printing paychecks.
Again, while there are reasons for everything, it takes tact and skill to enter an organization and make effective changes in a short amount of time. I probably wouldn't have any gumption for a few years, and I'd expect that. But then, I'd move to my usual tactics of attempting to find broken things and fix them. Technology is never broken, it's just mis-applied. People and processes are often broken. Realistically, I'd be a warrior and evangelist aiming to arm the SA's, the IA's and the entire FBI with the most technologically appropriate methods to do their jobs.
Weird, but I'd also hope that one day an agent would consider their PDA/XDA just as valuable as their duty weapon. Time will tell. I don't even have the job yet and I'm thinking this way. Guess I'm just that much of a forward thinker.
Quote from: Fair Chance on Feb 26, 2006, 12:47 PM
Point 2: The FBI WILL contact your present employer with a mandatory interview of one or more supervisors or fellow employees (typically at least one of each) before performing any adjudication of your final background clearance or offer of final appointment. If you are at all concerned about their negative input, DO NOT APPLY. While they will not automatically take negative comments at face value, it will cause them to spend alot more time doing a much more extensive interviewing of many supervisors and employees to rectify the truth to their satisfaction. The FBI does not like individual expression. The want a "team" player that follows orders and keeps their opinion to themselves. All you have to do is look at FBI employees who have expressed concerns and are now unemployed and blackmarked for life as "whistleblowers."
Understand completely. And therein is the single risk that I'm not sure I'm willing to take. The poly, background, all that -- dont' worry me. Hell, my coworker interviews don't worry me. I live my life in a way that I know I need to call on people, and thus I make close friends and when that's impossible, at least allies. I choose wisely, and I ... well, that's all jib-jab.
The bottom line is that I know I would do just fine. Except, therein lies the challenge -- at what point would they actually do the interviews (using my list, previously message). Because, honestly, I'd like to be at 90% confirmed with that being the last hurdle. I could even spin it to my management chain that I wanted to move closer to my wife's family, yadda yadda, which would buy me credits/tokens to take a swing at this. But then ... well, it just gets interesting. And I may opt out entirely. It's not fun putting your emotions on your sleeve and then having the shirt taken off your back, so to speak.
I don't believe the FBI maliciously does that, of course, but they're a in the business of doing what they do without much regard for personal impact, and while understandable, I think the largest detractor from my current position. I figure I need to be honest with them in the interview (the only one, as the way I heard it being told to me from my AC) and let them know that I have a good position and that wihtout jeopardizing it, I need to know what would disqualify me so I may intelligently associate the risk with the reward. If they're unwilling to understand that, then I may end the interviewing process and re-engage later down the road when I'm not being put into a situation of financial risk. Already having filed CH13, I don't want to foobar myself much further right now, and losing a job b/c I considered another, with the other being now rescinded based upon confidential adjudication criteria, isn't my idea of fun and happiness.
Quote from: Fair Chance on Feb 26, 2006, 12:47 PM
Point 3: Please go to the FBI website for employment and you will find that the FBI wants many background questions completed all the way back to age 18. In your case, this would involve over 17 years of information. Not supplying the information as directed will immediately raise red flags.
Understood. But interestingly, a few quick things I omitted:
On the SF-86, my FBI recruiter (didn't identify herself as an SA, so she may be HR support staff) told me to IGNORE questions #21 (Mental Health status), #24 (Drug involvement), and #24 (Alcohol involvement/treatmentConcerns). While obviously 'very cool', that doesn't guarantee that's not being considered. I don't know really what this means, and I'd like others to weigh in. Her response was "We aren't allowed to ask you those questions". WTF? Like, totally rad for joe-skateboarder-cum-computer-expert, but that's just my concern, and doens't impact me either way. I am going to fill those out, because it looks very good for my answers to be the way they are.
But specifically, #23 (Arrest Record) and really everything between #20-#25 indicates CONFLICTING periods of scope and history. For reference, I'm using SF-86 Revision 11/95. (Ref: http://www.opm.gov/forms/pdf_fill/SF86.pdf). In most cases, the form requires a period of 7 years. I'm sure they can extend that to any degree they need (and from reading your information, it goes back to Age 18, which really doensn't change anything). In fact, the way I answer question #23, it completely removes any suspicion that I'm hiding or failing to disclose ANYTHING. Again, I've been through the government paperwork and due-dilligence approaches enough to know that I need to list 110% of every nuance. And if I missed something, I'm going to pre-work every angle to ensure that I have the documentation ready and waiting to hand over when they say "What about this..." (hands paper). "Didn't think you needed that, because, as instructed Sir, the form required 7 years and I've provided that. But here is everything up to my 18th birthday, which by the way, doesn't really impact it otherwise."
Quote from: Fair Chance on Feb 26, 2006, 12:47 PM
Point 4: While publicly stating that certain drug "experimentation" is acceptable to the FBI employment standards, the unwritten rule of polygraph operators is to find any drug usage questionable and means for "an unacceptable parameters" finding. There are plenty of applicants and they would prefer one with no drug history at all if possible.
Understandable and the gamble I'm most willing to take among all of them. I'll admit to curious pot-smoking and some boozing. But in the adjudication process (if, making it out of poly-fun-land is possible), they should consider my recent 11 year stint as a father, husband, holder of steady and stable jobs and nose-clean approach to law and order, etc. If they don't, screw em, let them have Joe Mormon (just a joke, folks). Etc.
Quote from: Fair Chance on Feb 26, 2006, 12:47 PMWhat I have stated is the truth to the best of my knowledge. I can understand your boredom with your current position. If you were single and it only affected you, I would say, give it a shot. I would not risk my family's future on the FBI employment opportunity considering the conditions you describe.
Most valuable point there. One I'm considering in the next 96 hours.
Posted by Fair Chance
- Feb 26, 2006, 12:47 PMDear chitown_dude,
You are asking all the right questions. My answers are only "to the best of my knowledge" and experience but I know how difficult it is to get accurate information in this process.
Point 1: Forget about what you see on CSI or other computer TV shows about FBI forensics. Your task will be more probably trying to get the FBI computer infrastructure to work at late 1990's private sector operational capacity. The FBI had a 170 million dollar fiasco called TRIOLOGY which was a complete flop pronounced dead even before arrival (do standard search engine for much public Congressional Record information available about this). Reading about this should send a chill up your spine about the "high technology" you hope to play with. You will be assigned to making a "new" system work which the FBI cannot even put a price tag on yet (rough estimates of up to 800 million dollars but the FBI will not commit to any number saying it is "premature to state such quotes due to ongoing bidding process"). Again, all of this is available through standard search engine sites with the right keywords.
Point 2: The FBI WILL contact your present employer with a mandatory interview of one or more supervisors or fellow employees (typically at least one of each) before performing any adjudication of your final background clearance or offer of final appointment. If you are at all concerned about their negative input, DO NOT APPLY. While they will not automatically take negative comments at face value, it will cause them to spend alot more time doing a much more extensive interviewing of many supervisors and employees to rectify the truth to their satisfaction. The FBI does not like individual expression. The want a "team" player that follows orders and keeps their opinion to themselves. All you have to do is look at FBI employees who have expressed concerns and are now unemployed and blackmarked for life as "whistleblowers."
Point 3: Please go to the FBI website for employment and you will find that the FBI wants many background questions completed all the way back to age 18. In your case, this would involve over 17 years of information. Not supplying the information as directed will immediately raise red flags.
Point 4: While publicly stating that certain drug "experimentation" is acceptable to the FBI employment standards, the unwritten rule of polygraph operators is to find any drug usage questionable and means for "an unacceptable parameters" finding. There are plenty of applicants and they would prefer one with no drug history at all if possible.
What I have stated is the truth to the best of my knowledge. I can understand your boredom with your current position. If you were single and it only affected you, I would say, give it a shot. I would not risk my family's future on the FBI employment opportunity considering the conditions you describe.
Regards.
You are asking all the right questions. My answers are only "to the best of my knowledge" and experience but I know how difficult it is to get accurate information in this process.
Point 1: Forget about what you see on CSI or other computer TV shows about FBI forensics. Your task will be more probably trying to get the FBI computer infrastructure to work at late 1990's private sector operational capacity. The FBI had a 170 million dollar fiasco called TRIOLOGY which was a complete flop pronounced dead even before arrival (do standard search engine for much public Congressional Record information available about this). Reading about this should send a chill up your spine about the "high technology" you hope to play with. You will be assigned to making a "new" system work which the FBI cannot even put a price tag on yet (rough estimates of up to 800 million dollars but the FBI will not commit to any number saying it is "premature to state such quotes due to ongoing bidding process"). Again, all of this is available through standard search engine sites with the right keywords.
Point 2: The FBI WILL contact your present employer with a mandatory interview of one or more supervisors or fellow employees (typically at least one of each) before performing any adjudication of your final background clearance or offer of final appointment. If you are at all concerned about their negative input, DO NOT APPLY. While they will not automatically take negative comments at face value, it will cause them to spend alot more time doing a much more extensive interviewing of many supervisors and employees to rectify the truth to their satisfaction. The FBI does not like individual expression. The want a "team" player that follows orders and keeps their opinion to themselves. All you have to do is look at FBI employees who have expressed concerns and are now unemployed and blackmarked for life as "whistleblowers."
Point 3: Please go to the FBI website for employment and you will find that the FBI wants many background questions completed all the way back to age 18. In your case, this would involve over 17 years of information. Not supplying the information as directed will immediately raise red flags.
Point 4: While publicly stating that certain drug "experimentation" is acceptable to the FBI employment standards, the unwritten rule of polygraph operators is to find any drug usage questionable and means for "an unacceptable parameters" finding. There are plenty of applicants and they would prefer one with no drug history at all if possible.
What I have stated is the truth to the best of my knowledge. I can understand your boredom with your current position. If you were single and it only affected you, I would say, give it a shot. I would not risk my family's future on the FBI employment opportunity considering the conditions you describe.
Regards.