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A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by furedy
- Oct 13, 2004, 12:08 AMJust on the issue of whether socio or psychopaths are better at "beating" the polygraph than normal, this is would be a reasonable expectatoin if the rationale of the polygraph were not so nonsensical (in the technical sense of that term). The expression "detection of deception" leads one to expect that the main difference between the relevant and "control" questions was that there was lying to the former and not to the latter, in which case socio and psychopaths would be harder to detect. But in fact as George has clearly indicated (and see other references) thiis is not the main difference that is being compared, and on which whether the examinee is classified as "decepttive" or "truthful" depends. All this shows what a semantic morass the polygraph is, as it is used in North America and Israel. John Furedy
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Aug 15, 2004, 10:48 AMIt is a popular belief (sometimes promoted by polygraphers themselves) that sociopaths have a special ability to pass the polygraph. Actually, the limited research that has been done on this subject suggests that sociopaths may enjoy no such advantage. However, this research, which is discussed at pp. 267-271 of the 2nd edition of Professor David T. Lykken's book, A Tremor in the Blood: Uses and Abuses of the Lie Detector (Plenum Trade, 1998), is far from conclusive, and "the thesis...that the psychopath [sociopath] may be better able than the normal subject to 'beat' a lie detector test administered in the course of real-life criminal investigation...remains to be disproven."
In any event, one needn't be a sociopath to fool the lie detector: polygraph "tests" are easily beaten through the use of simple countermeasures that polygraphers have no demonstrated ability to detect. Even without using such countermeasures, liars will sometimes "pass" simply as a result of the random error associated with polygraphy. I don't think that you should be put into the position of having to explain why, in the case of your assailant, an invalid test produced inaccurate results.
In any event, one needn't be a sociopath to fool the lie detector: polygraph "tests" are easily beaten through the use of simple countermeasures that polygraphers have no demonstrated ability to detect. Even without using such countermeasures, liars will sometimes "pass" simply as a result of the random error associated with polygraphy. I don't think that you should be put into the position of having to explain why, in the case of your assailant, an invalid test produced inaccurate results.
Posted by raped
- Aug 14, 2004, 04:35 PMThank you George. I read the links you provided and feel a lot better about making the decision of refusing the polygraph. I will be contacting the sexual assault agencies in Ohio and Virginia you provided for additional support and guidance. You know, what would the detective do if I passed the polygraph too? What happened to good old fashioned solid evidence proving a case like in my case ie. physical injuries to my arm and various injuries to my body both inside and outside? How did police solve crimes before polygraphing? Also, my understanding is that people who have anti-social personality disorders (sociopaths) can pass polygraphs because they view the crime without a conscience. Is this true? If so, should I request my assailant have a psychological evaluation to determine if he has a personality disorder? Of course he has lawyered up and I know the likelihood of him agreeing to it would be nil. What do you think? Later on, I will be PMing you with more details of my case as it progresses.
Oh, I am also glad I posted this information. I did not see anywhere else on the message board about spefically polygraphing victims of sexual assault/rape. The websites you provided verified everything I was concerned about such as reliving the trauma, fear of not being believed, lack of empathy from law enforcement, seeing my assailant again, etc. I have been humiliated enough by my assailant, medical exam, evidence collection and the police questioning that I am not going to subject myself to a test that would further add to my trauma/pain/embarrassment.
Oh, I am also glad I posted this information. I did not see anywhere else on the message board about spefically polygraphing victims of sexual assault/rape. The websites you provided verified everything I was concerned about such as reliving the trauma, fear of not being believed, lack of empathy from law enforcement, seeing my assailant again, etc. I have been humiliated enough by my assailant, medical exam, evidence collection and the police questioning that I am not going to subject myself to a test that would further add to my trauma/pain/embarrassment.
Posted by George W. Maschke
- Aug 14, 2004, 03:13 PMTo answer your questions, yes, the feelings of re-traumatization associated with any mention of rape could well result in a "failed" result. Polygraph "testing" has no scientific basis whatsoever. It's based on the flawed assumption that if you show stronger reactions to questions directly related to the crime (relevant questions) than to a set of more general questions in response to which you are secretly expected to lie ("control" questions), then you must be lying about the relevant questions. An example of a relevant question in your case might be, "Did you consent to having sexual intercourse with that man?" and a corresponding "control" question might be, "Did you ever engage in an unnatural sexual act?" If you sweat more, if your heart beats a faster, if your blood pressure is higher, or if your breathing is more erratic when answering the former question than when answering the latter, then you are very likely to "fail" this unscientific test. And upon failing, you can expect to be subjected to a very unpleasant interrogation.
According to polygrapher James Allen Matte (Forensic Psychophysiology Using the Polygraph, pp. 484-85), other "control" questions that might be used for "testing" an alleged rape victim include ("DYR"="Do you remember"):
You can see from the above questions how traumatizing a polygraph "test" may be for a rape victim. In many states, it is illegal for any government official to request that any self-described rape victim submit to any lie detector "test." Unfortunately, it appears that your state is not one of them.
For more on polygraphy, download our e-book, The Lie Behind the Lie Detector. Chapters 1 and 3 will be of particular interest. Chapter 4 explains how anyone can pass (or beat) the polygraph. (Perhaps the man who raped you read it.):
http://antipolygraph.org/lie-behind-the-lie-detector.pdf
I suggest that you politely refuse to submit to the requested polygraph "test." You can explain to the detective that you've looked into polygraphy (feel free to mention this web site to him) and discovered how unreliable it is.
I very much doubt that you could be arrested for refusing to submit to a polygraph examination (or even for "failing" one). But neither your refusal to submit to voodoo science nor the perpetrator's "passing" of this bogus test should be used as a pretext for ending the investigation. If your rapist is allowed to walk, he may go on to do to others what he did to you (and perhaps even worse).
Various organizations have come out against the polygraphing of rape victims. For example, in Virginia, there is Virginians Allied Against Sexual Assault (see Polygraphing Victims and Witnesses), and in Ohio there is the Ohio Coalition on Sexual Assault (see their Statement on Polygraph & CVSA). Perhaps there is such an organization in your state with whic you might get in touch. If you'd like help finding one, please let me know.
If the police attempt to drop the case based on polygraph "evidence," although it would no doubt be emotionally trying, you might consider going public. It is certainly newsworthy that junk science is being used to lead rape investigations, and this practice can only be abolished if victims like yourself work to make it happen. In this regard, AntiPolygraph.org is willing to do all that we can to help.
If you would like to discuss anything of the foregoing privately, feel free to contact me either by e-mail or by a private message through this boad.
According to polygrapher James Allen Matte (Forensic Psychophysiology Using the Polygraph, pp. 484-85), other "control" questions that might be used for "testing" an alleged rape victim include ("DYR"="Do you remember"):
QuoteDYR ever inviting any sexual advancements from any man?
DYR ever flirting with a man?
DYR ever gossiping about anyone?
DYR ever reading someone else's mail? (diary)
DYR ever thinking of having sex with any man? (besides your husband? if married).
DYR ever thinking of dating any other man besides your husband?
DYR ever teasing a man for sexual purpose?
DYR ever teasing a man to have sex with you?
DYR ever being sexually jealous of another woman?
DYR ever sexually kissing another woman?
DYR ever thinking about cheating on your husband?
DYR ever masturbating?
DYR ever being unfaithful to your husband?
DYR ever thinking of divorcing your husband?
DYR ever thinking of killing your husband?
DYR ever committing adultery?
DYR ever having sexual intercourse? (unmarried)
DYR ever having sexual contact with anyone? (unmarried)\
DYR ever trying to "make" any man?
DYR ever taking part in an unnatural sex act?
DYR ever considering forcing any girl/woman/female to (submit to sex/do something sexual)?
DYR ever fantasizing about forcing sex on a stranger? (if victim was a stranger)
DYR ever figuring it was all right to force sex on a certain kind of girl/woman?
DYR ever ignoring a girl's/woman's resistance to (sex/sexual contact)?
DYR ever doing something sexual because you couldn't resist it?
DYR ever feeling any improper sexual attraction for someone too young? (child victim
only)
DYR ever having sexual interests that were anything other than normal (for that age)?
DYR ever doing anything sexual that most other men/women the same age would not
do?
DYR ever doing something sexual that (was/others would consider) improper for that
age?
DYR ever doing something sexual that others would consider excessive?
DYR ever doing something sexual (alone or with another) that you didn't want your
wife/husband to know about?
DYR ever handling your own body or another's in an improper sexual way?
DYR ever wanting to have sex with a man (woman) whose name you didn't know?
DYR ever attempting to encourage the interests of a man other than your husband?
DYR ever (dressing/appearing in public) in a way intended to arouse sexual interest?
DYR ever teasing a man sexually?
DYR ever considering forcing a girl/woman to (submit to sex/do something sexual?)
DYR ever forcing any kind of sexual contact/attention on anyone?
DYR ever fantasizing about forcing sex on a stranger? (if victim was a stranger)
DYR ever figuring it was all right to force sex on a girl/woman?
DYR ever ignoring a girl's/woman's resistance to sex?
DYR ever doing something sexual because you couldn't resist it?
DYR ever feeling any improper sexual attraction for some one too young? (See Children
Victim).
DYR ever having sexual interests that were anything other than normal for that age?
DYR ever committing any sex act that most other men/women (that age) would not do?
DYR ever doing something sexual that (was/others would consider) improper for that
age?
DYR ever masturbating?
DYR ever engaging in any unusual sex activity?
DYR ever having sexual intercourse with anyone other than your husband/wife since your
marriage?
DYR ever doing something sexual that others would consider excessive?
DYR ever doing something sexual (alone or with another) that you didn't want your
wife/husband to know about?
DYR ever having a desire to have someone watch you in a sex act? (exposure cases)
DYR ever wanting to have sex with a man whose name you didn't know?
DYR ever attempting to encourage the interests of a man other than your husband/
boyfriend? DYR ever (dressing/appearing in public) in a way intended to arouse sexual
interest?
DYR ever teasing any man sexually?
You can see from the above questions how traumatizing a polygraph "test" may be for a rape victim. In many states, it is illegal for any government official to request that any self-described rape victim submit to any lie detector "test." Unfortunately, it appears that your state is not one of them.
For more on polygraphy, download our e-book, The Lie Behind the Lie Detector. Chapters 1 and 3 will be of particular interest. Chapter 4 explains how anyone can pass (or beat) the polygraph. (Perhaps the man who raped you read it.):
http://antipolygraph.org/lie-behind-the-lie-detector.pdf
I suggest that you politely refuse to submit to the requested polygraph "test." You can explain to the detective that you've looked into polygraphy (feel free to mention this web site to him) and discovered how unreliable it is.
I very much doubt that you could be arrested for refusing to submit to a polygraph examination (or even for "failing" one). But neither your refusal to submit to voodoo science nor the perpetrator's "passing" of this bogus test should be used as a pretext for ending the investigation. If your rapist is allowed to walk, he may go on to do to others what he did to you (and perhaps even worse).
Various organizations have come out against the polygraphing of rape victims. For example, in Virginia, there is Virginians Allied Against Sexual Assault (see Polygraphing Victims and Witnesses), and in Ohio there is the Ohio Coalition on Sexual Assault (see their Statement on Polygraph & CVSA). Perhaps there is such an organization in your state with whic you might get in touch. If you'd like help finding one, please let me know.
If the police attempt to drop the case based on polygraph "evidence," although it would no doubt be emotionally trying, you might consider going public. It is certainly newsworthy that junk science is being used to lead rape investigations, and this practice can only be abolished if victims like yourself work to make it happen. In this regard, AntiPolygraph.org is willing to do all that we can to help.
If you would like to discuss anything of the foregoing privately, feel free to contact me either by e-mail or by a private message through this boad.
Posted by raped
- Aug 14, 2004, 01:15 PMI was raped in a park by an unknown man/stranger. Police found the man based on my description and some other details--good police work! But the man passed his polygraph test maintaining it was "consentual sex" and now the detective wants me to take one! He thinks I am lying about my rape even though I had injuries documented in my rape kit. I am willing to take a polygraph but worried. Any mention of my rape I get nausea, become tense and begin to tear up/cry. Would these reactions effect the test giving a "failed" result? And if, I would fail, would I then be arrested for making a false report even though I am telling the truth? I don't know if it is worth the further emotional trauma of being questioned. I am thinking of dropping charges because of the this but don't want other women to be victims to. What should I do? Take the test and not worry about my emotional reactions from the re-trauma of being questioned since I am telling the truth but if I fail risk being charged for "making a false report" OR just drop the whole thing, get on with my life and let my rapist walk?