- Welcome to AntiPolygraph.org Message Board.
A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by Tarrying
- Jun 25, 2004, 05:06 AM I just want to thank you all so much for the time you took to try and help.
Tomorrow our insurance company is going to close the case unless my son and I, (my name is on there, too, because I am part owner of the car), sign affadavits that he had nothing to do with the arson. The lawyer we talked with said that it seems they are out to get him, and if he signs, then they will try and get him on insurance fraud instead of making a false report.
To me, this all seems like a dream, not reality. We never would have thought that a thing like this could happen; our car stolen and then burned, and then having to seek out a lawyer to defend our son, still have to pay for the car, no doubt we will be dropped by the insur. company and they will give us a bad reccomendation to any other company we try to go with on top of all that!
Believe me, we questioned, and requestioned our son, not once or twice, even. But many times. His story has been the same each time. He admitted what he did the first time he got into trouble, and he was so thankful for getting house arrest and not jail. I don't believe he would have then gone and done something to risk going there, when by God's grace he just missed going there in the first place.
I don't know how things will turn out yet, but thank you again for your help. If you have any more thoughts, or advice, they will be gladly received.
Tarrying
Tomorrow our insurance company is going to close the case unless my son and I, (my name is on there, too, because I am part owner of the car), sign affadavits that he had nothing to do with the arson. The lawyer we talked with said that it seems they are out to get him, and if he signs, then they will try and get him on insurance fraud instead of making a false report.
To me, this all seems like a dream, not reality. We never would have thought that a thing like this could happen; our car stolen and then burned, and then having to seek out a lawyer to defend our son, still have to pay for the car, no doubt we will be dropped by the insur. company and they will give us a bad reccomendation to any other company we try to go with on top of all that!
Believe me, we questioned, and requestioned our son, not once or twice, even. But many times. His story has been the same each time. He admitted what he did the first time he got into trouble, and he was so thankful for getting house arrest and not jail. I don't believe he would have then gone and done something to risk going there, when by God's grace he just missed going there in the first place.
I don't know how things will turn out yet, but thank you again for your help. If you have any more thoughts, or advice, they will be gladly received.
Tarrying
Posted by dimas
- Jun 17, 2004, 10:37 PMTarrying, I am sorry to hear about your ordeal and truly hope that your son is indeed innocent.
In your post you state that the detectives/police officers kept changing their stories. While this is indeed a deceptive practice on their part it is completely legal as they are allowed to do this in order to fish out the truth. Also the majority of stolen/torched car cases are usually done by the cars original owner, so the police are basically going on their hunch.
I am not sure why the police at the station gave you such a hard time while attempting to file a stolen car report, however, you are always welcome to come speak with a supervisor and file a complaint regarding this issue and you can rest assured that it will indeed be looked into.
No, they cannot just come into your home. They will either need your permission or a warrant. However, there is often a condition of probation which states that to be placed on probation instead of put in jail or prison one consents to be searched at any time, both their home and person by LE officers. If the probation agreement does indeed stipulate this, then yes they are free to come in whenever they choose.
My best advice is to consult a good criminal defense attorney and spend the money on it. I am somewhat apprehensive of both you and your husband spending a lot of money on this because I did work with juvenile offenders for 5 years and found that the majority of the time when they were guilty they continued to lie to their parents, even after being caught and the parents continued to believe them.
As I said earlier I truly hope he is innocent, but your best bet is to spend the money on a lawyer to ensure that your rights are in no way violated.
In your post you state that the detectives/police officers kept changing their stories. While this is indeed a deceptive practice on their part it is completely legal as they are allowed to do this in order to fish out the truth. Also the majority of stolen/torched car cases are usually done by the cars original owner, so the police are basically going on their hunch.
I am not sure why the police at the station gave you such a hard time while attempting to file a stolen car report, however, you are always welcome to come speak with a supervisor and file a complaint regarding this issue and you can rest assured that it will indeed be looked into.
QuoteWe will fight this if it goes to court; but what is weighing heavy on our hearts, is that could this be breaking probation, or house arrest, and then there is no chance of making a bond? Jail until the court trial?---And what about all those documents they want? Can they just come into our home to search and take what they want? And all of this is to happen in "just a matter of time."
No, they cannot just come into your home. They will either need your permission or a warrant. However, there is often a condition of probation which states that to be placed on probation instead of put in jail or prison one consents to be searched at any time, both their home and person by LE officers. If the probation agreement does indeed stipulate this, then yes they are free to come in whenever they choose.
My best advice is to consult a good criminal defense attorney and spend the money on it. I am somewhat apprehensive of both you and your husband spending a lot of money on this because I did work with juvenile offenders for 5 years and found that the majority of the time when they were guilty they continued to lie to their parents, even after being caught and the parents continued to believe them.
As I said earlier I truly hope he is innocent, but your best bet is to spend the money on a lawyer to ensure that your rights are in no way violated.
Posted by Marty
- Jun 17, 2004, 10:08 PMQuote from: I-SMELL-BS-2 on Jun 17, 2004, 09:57 PM
If you think anyone on this board can help you, you need to keep "Tarrying".
T,
I agree with PolyCop (who is a police polygrapher I believe).
Perhaps you could suggest that your son take a so called "Guilty Knowledge Test" aka "Concealed Information Test." This type of polygraph is the most common type in Japanese criminal work and is widely respected for having a real scientific basis. It tests reactions to knowledge of specific aspects of the "crime" that only the criminal (and investigators) would know. Ask that it be taped, audio and visual.
It may not tell you what you want to hear though.
-Marty
Posted by Tarrying
- Jun 17, 2004, 08:49 PM Is there not someone who can help?!
Can anyone answer, or give any light on the questions that I asked?
Sincerely,
Tarrying
Can anyone answer, or give any light on the questions that I asked?
Sincerely,
Tarrying
Posted by Tarrying
- Jun 16, 2004, 06:27 AMGentlemen,
I am a new poster,and am asking for some help. Please, try to understand that I am not well-versed in the abbreviations that you are using. You lost me on quite a few. I would like to understand what you are saying-so please speak a little more clearly. For my sake; and please don't take offense, because none was meant. It is just that the pressure is mounting and it seems that there is not much time.
A lawyer that we have consulted with, informed us that, "your son is going to be arrested. It is only a matter of time." He spoke with the detective and he adamantly affirmed that this was his intention.
I don't believe that there is adequate evidence against my son, but this could be just me. Not one car payment was ever missed, and even the creditor said that we had an excellent credit history. There is no motive at all.
We will fight this if it goes to court; but what is weighing heavy on our hearts, is that could this be breaking probation, or house arrest, and then there is no chance of making a bond? Jail until the court trial?---And what about all those documents they want? Can they just come into our home to search and take what they want? And all of this is to happen in "just a matter of time."
Any advise would be greatly appreciated.
Sincerely,
Tarrying
I am a new poster,and am asking for some help. Please, try to understand that I am not well-versed in the abbreviations that you are using. You lost me on quite a few. I would like to understand what you are saying-so please speak a little more clearly. For my sake; and please don't take offense, because none was meant. It is just that the pressure is mounting and it seems that there is not much time.
A lawyer that we have consulted with, informed us that, "your son is going to be arrested. It is only a matter of time." He spoke with the detective and he adamantly affirmed that this was his intention.
I don't believe that there is adequate evidence against my son, but this could be just me. Not one car payment was ever missed, and even the creditor said that we had an excellent credit history. There is no motive at all.
We will fight this if it goes to court; but what is weighing heavy on our hearts, is that could this be breaking probation, or house arrest, and then there is no chance of making a bond? Jail until the court trial?---And what about all those documents they want? Can they just come into our home to search and take what they want? And all of this is to happen in "just a matter of time."
Any advise would be greatly appreciated.
Sincerely,
Tarrying
Posted by Drew Richardson
- Jun 15, 2004, 01:51 PMPolyCop,
Again I believe we have a basis for some extended agreement here, but a few points. You write:
I am not suggesting that hunches do not sometimes lead to successful investigative outcomes. There are no doubt countless examples in which they are both right/helpful and wrong/harmful/counterproductive. My point is that they should have no role in what should be an independent diagnostic evaluation of the situation, i.e., the polygraph examination. These hunches can be evaluated in addition to the results of an untainted polygraph examination following that exam and in light of all other evidence, but to confound the exam with the hunch is much more than counterproductive.
You further write:
I believe there are several problems with this: (1) in many regards the CQs are not true scientific controls (often differ in time, scope, significance, etc) and cannot be used as such with RQs; (2) that which you state as "proper foundation and setting" can not be precisely defined nor is there any objective way to determine to what extent it has been accomplished for any given exam for any given examinee on any given day or for that matter to determine whether this goal has been accomplished at all. For these reasons, I believe this largely leaves every examiner doing that which is right in his own eyes with regard to specifics of the day's exams regardless of general industry standards for practice. It (the whole process) is not and cannot by its nature be sufficiently defined and be theoretically justified as to be meaningfully and reliably performed.
You further write:
Time following the training (not yet done) of investigative personnel, investigative agency executives, attorneys and polygraphers regarding the proper collection, recording, and protection of CIT subject matter will tell the tale. I see no reason why, once the aforementioned training has been accomplished and in the midst of proper investigation with a given case, that the CIT format should not be an available tool in and for a wide range of casework. Again regards...
Again I believe we have a basis for some extended agreement here, but a few points. You write:
Quote...For example, how many times have seemingly "unsolvable" cases been solved by an agent who "just had a feeling" about a particular person or item of evidence....
I am not suggesting that hunches do not sometimes lead to successful investigative outcomes. There are no doubt countless examples in which they are both right/helpful and wrong/harmful/counterproductive. My point is that they should have no role in what should be an independent diagnostic evaluation of the situation, i.e., the polygraph examination. These hunches can be evaluated in addition to the results of an untainted polygraph examination following that exam and in light of all other evidence, but to confound the exam with the hunch is much more than counterproductive.
You further write:
Quote...Regarding the "confound of the fear of consequences" for innocent examinees taking PLCQT's, I still assert the proper foundation and setting of PLC's go a long way to resolving that issue....
I believe there are several problems with this: (1) in many regards the CQs are not true scientific controls (often differ in time, scope, significance, etc) and cannot be used as such with RQs; (2) that which you state as "proper foundation and setting" can not be precisely defined nor is there any objective way to determine to what extent it has been accomplished for any given exam for any given examinee on any given day or for that matter to determine whether this goal has been accomplished at all. For these reasons, I believe this largely leaves every examiner doing that which is right in his own eyes with regard to specifics of the day's exams regardless of general industry standards for practice. It (the whole process) is not and cannot by its nature be sufficiently defined and be theoretically justified as to be meaningfully and reliably performed.
You further write:
Quote...Like you, I do believe many investigations would indeed lend themselves to the utilization of the CIT. However, I am not sure I would agree with your assertion that 90 per cent of all cases would be suitable candidates.....
Time following the training (not yet done) of investigative personnel, investigative agency executives, attorneys and polygraphers regarding the proper collection, recording, and protection of CIT subject matter will tell the tale. I see no reason why, once the aforementioned training has been accomplished and in the midst of proper investigation with a given case, that the CIT format should not be an available tool in and for a wide range of casework. Again regards...
Posted by PolyCop
- Jun 15, 2004, 01:19 PMQuote from: Drew Richardson on Jun 15, 2004, 11:32 AMPolyCop,
I am pleased to know that we have managed to agree in apparent entirety on the various known aspects of the investigation of and polygraphic examination of the arson matter described in this thread. I would suggest to you that the underlying elements of that agreement (the presence of and impact of biases stemming from prevailing investigative theories passed on to polygraphers by investigating officers, the confound of the fear of consequences for innocent examinees taking PLCQT's, and the amenability of most (perhaps 90 per cent of all) properly investigated criminal matters to CIT subject matter development) should lead to similar agreement on like aspects of a vast number of criminal and administrative matters being investigated. I would like to think that such is possible. Best Regards...
Drew,
I agree with your assertion regarding the impact of investigator biases. However, one must remember that like many other things in life, many biases stem from actual experiences and therefore by their nature tend to color our view of the evidence. This is human nature and not to be dismissed out of hand. For example, how many times have seemingly "unsolvable" cases been solved by an agent who "just had a feeling" about a particular person or item of evidence?
Regarding the "confound of the fear of consequences" for innocent examinees taking PLCQT's, I still assert the proper foundation and setting of PLC's go a long way to resolving that issue.
Like you, I do believe many investigations would indeed lend themselves to the utilization of the CIT. However, I am not sure I would agree with your assertion that 90 per cent of all cases would be suitable candidates.
Regards always...
PolyCop
Posted by Drew Richardson
- Jun 15, 2004, 11:32 AMPolyCop,
I am pleased to know that we have managed to agree in apparent entirety on the various known aspects of the investigation of and polygraphic examination of the arson matter described in this thread. I would suggest to you that the underlying elements of that agreement (the presence of and impact of biases stemming from prevailing investigative theories passed on to polygraphers by investigating officers, the confound of the fear of consequences for innocent examinees taking PLCQT's, and the amenability of most (perhaps 90 per cent of all) properly investigated criminal matters to CIT subject matter development) should lead to similar agreement on like aspects of a vast number of criminal and administrative matters being investigated. I would like to think that such is possible. Best Regards...
I am pleased to know that we have managed to agree in apparent entirety on the various known aspects of the investigation of and polygraphic examination of the arson matter described in this thread. I would suggest to you that the underlying elements of that agreement (the presence of and impact of biases stemming from prevailing investigative theories passed on to polygraphers by investigating officers, the confound of the fear of consequences for innocent examinees taking PLCQT's, and the amenability of most (perhaps 90 per cent of all) properly investigated criminal matters to CIT subject matter development) should lead to similar agreement on like aspects of a vast number of criminal and administrative matters being investigated. I would like to think that such is possible. Best Regards...
Posted by PolyCop
- Jun 15, 2004, 12:22 AMQuote from: Drew Richardson on Jun 14, 2004, 03:14 PMTarrying,
This does not mean that the polygraph is altogether useless in such a matter. If the police/fire department have adequately investigated the matter, they should have determined a variety of things to include the identity of the accelerant used, the points of origin of the fire within the vehicle, perhaps other things about items left at the scene, etc. A concealed information polygraph exam will allow for a meaningful exam in which your son can be tested about details of the crime that he could reasonably be expected not to know unless he had some involvement in the planning or execution of the crime.
Drew,
This happens to be one time you and I agree completely. This case is an EXCELLENT example of a situation PERFECT for a CIT/GKT!
PolyCop
Posted by Drew Richardson
- Jun 14, 2004, 03:14 PMTarrying,
Although PolyCop and I might not agree on many things, I think his explanation/assessment about law enforcement perceptions regarding stolen/burned cars is completely correct. That having been said, under no circumstances would I recommend that your son take a probable lie control question test (PLCQT) polygraph exam (the most common polygraph format used in this country). The relevant questions that will be asked ("Did you burn that car? Do you know who burned that car? etc.) will be obviously relevant and apparent to your son or anybody else who might hear them. Whether your son is responsible for the crime(s) involved or not, he may well react to the asking of those questions, simply because he realizes an arrest, perhaps trial, conviction, imprisonment, etc are resting on the outcome of his answers to these questions. As I have said many times before, your son or someone in this situation can well react to these questions because of fear of the consequences of being found deceptive, completely unrelated to any criminal involvement which might lead to some fear/concern of being caught in a lie(s). Additionally the "prior experience" bias (well described by PolyCop) which may well affect the prevailing investigative theory(ies) of investigating officers will no doubt be passed on to the polygraph examiner who would conduct your son's examination. This kind of second hand bias will most certainly not make it more probable that your son will be found non-deceptive (i.e., pass) on such an exam.
This does not mean that the polygraph is altogether useless in such a matter. If the police/fire department have adequately investigated the matter, they should have determined a variety of things to include the identity of the accelerant used, the points of origin of the fire within the vehicle, perhaps other things about items left at the scene, etc. A concealed information polygraph exam will allow for a meaningful exam in which your son can be tested about details of the crime that he could reasonably be expected not to know unless he had some involvement in the planning or execution of the crime.
Although PolyCop and I might not agree on many things, I think his explanation/assessment about law enforcement perceptions regarding stolen/burned cars is completely correct. That having been said, under no circumstances would I recommend that your son take a probable lie control question test (PLCQT) polygraph exam (the most common polygraph format used in this country). The relevant questions that will be asked ("Did you burn that car? Do you know who burned that car? etc.) will be obviously relevant and apparent to your son or anybody else who might hear them. Whether your son is responsible for the crime(s) involved or not, he may well react to the asking of those questions, simply because he realizes an arrest, perhaps trial, conviction, imprisonment, etc are resting on the outcome of his answers to these questions. As I have said many times before, your son or someone in this situation can well react to these questions because of fear of the consequences of being found deceptive, completely unrelated to any criminal involvement which might lead to some fear/concern of being caught in a lie(s). Additionally the "prior experience" bias (well described by PolyCop) which may well affect the prevailing investigative theory(ies) of investigating officers will no doubt be passed on to the polygraph examiner who would conduct your son's examination. This kind of second hand bias will most certainly not make it more probable that your son will be found non-deceptive (i.e., pass) on such an exam.
This does not mean that the polygraph is altogether useless in such a matter. If the police/fire department have adequately investigated the matter, they should have determined a variety of things to include the identity of the accelerant used, the points of origin of the fire within the vehicle, perhaps other things about items left at the scene, etc. A concealed information polygraph exam will allow for a meaningful exam in which your son can be tested about details of the crime that he could reasonably be expected not to know unless he had some involvement in the planning or execution of the crime.
Posted by PolyCop
- Jun 14, 2004, 10:22 AMWow...
After weeding through your experience, all I can do is offer you my sympathy for all the pain you are going through and attempt to explain the point of view of the police in matters like this:
In my law enforcment career, I have investigated roughly a dozen cases where a car was stolen and burned....
In EVERY case it turned out the owner "stole" and torched his own car. Sometimes it was for the insurance money, sometimes because he could not afford the payments, and one time it was to preclude an ex-wife from winning the auto in a divorce settlement. However in EACH and EVERY case, the "theft" report was quite bogus...
I suspect the reason for this statistic is most car thieves do not torch a car they just went to alot of trouble to steal. Not much profit in it...
Anyway, I do not profess to know the details of your particular case, nor am I looking to antaganize anyone. I just thought I would share what I believe to be the basis for the position of the police in this case...
Regards...
PolyCop..
After weeding through your experience, all I can do is offer you my sympathy for all the pain you are going through and attempt to explain the point of view of the police in matters like this:
In my law enforcment career, I have investigated roughly a dozen cases where a car was stolen and burned....
In EVERY case it turned out the owner "stole" and torched his own car. Sometimes it was for the insurance money, sometimes because he could not afford the payments, and one time it was to preclude an ex-wife from winning the auto in a divorce settlement. However in EACH and EVERY case, the "theft" report was quite bogus...
I suspect the reason for this statistic is most car thieves do not torch a car they just went to alot of trouble to steal. Not much profit in it...
Anyway, I do not profess to know the details of your particular case, nor am I looking to antaganize anyone. I just thought I would share what I believe to be the basis for the position of the police in this case...
Regards...
PolyCop..
Posted by Tarrying
- Jun 14, 2004, 09:25 AMIf anyone knows anything....we could use some help. Back in the middle of March, on a Saturday, our son, who is on house arrest for something stupid he did, had a flat tire on his 2 hours of free time. He didn't have a spare, and had to walk home. He parked the car off the highway on a side road, and left it there till the next day when he could take the spare tire and change the flat. Sunday, when he got to the spot, the car wasn't there. The police said they didn't get any tow reports and didn't know what happened to it, but that a car was found the night before that had been burned beyond recognition and that he could go to the tow yard and see if by chance he could recognise it. They were closed, and looking thru the fence didn't help any. The police never bothered to file a stolen car report for him. When my husband & I got back from a trip that night, and I couldn't get any info from the tow yard the next day, I went down to the police station. They said they didn't know anything, and that they were busy right then and for me to come back with my son or someone who knew more about the car's details, like the interior color and odometer reading. I asked them to file a stolen car report because if that wasn't our car that was burned, someone was out riding around in it. The officer refused and said I needed to come back and bring my son. Being that my son works, he only gets his 2 hours of free time on Sat. & Sun; so my husband & I both went back. There they lied to us and said that our son called 911 before 6 a.m. Sunday morning to report the car stolen. Things looked too suspicious, and we were just going to have to wait & talk to the Detective. We went home and needless to say, questioned our son. He knew nothing of the car being stolen til he got there about 12:10p.m. that afternoon, and he never made that call. When we talked to the Detective, he said he had no record of such a call, and didn't know why we were told that. We weren't allowed to be in the room during the questioning as our son is over 18, but he said that the d. told him he found someone that lived on the street where it was found, and that they saw the car there around 10:30 a.m. & why would they lie about it. He kept grilling him about the story, changing it at least 3 times, and rewording it, (dindn't it happen like this...), telling him to come clean or he was going to..... each time was something different, and the last was arrest him. Each time, our son said you're going to have to... me cause I'm telling you the truth. Finally at the arrest, when our son said,"You're going to have to arrest me then," he changed it to take a polygraph test. Our son said he would do that. So, it was left off at scheduling a time to take the test. The d. later called and said that they would schedule it after he gets back from his vacation. ---By then, we checked on polygraph tests, and came up with some very negative reasons to take one. So we consulted with some legal help. He said not to take the polygraph test. ---When the officer finally got back to us a couple weeks later, our boy said no he didn't want to take one. The d. said, "Now you're starting to make me suspicious." He told the d. that his lawyer told him not to, & for him, to contac him if he wanted to talk any further. ----Now our insurance company wants our son to come in and swear under oath, sign more papers than originally asked for, when they didn't require it before, and for all of us to sign over to them access to all our financial reports, bank statements, credit bureau reports, phone bills, medical reports, and anything else not listed, but what they deem necessary, to make a judgment on this claim. Plus, they also said that the detective told them they are going to arrest our son for making a false report unless he takes the polygraph test, and he told our legal represenative that he was going to arrest him. Not even with a polygraph test. Our representative told us that our son is going to be arrested, it's just a matter of when.
They know our son didn't burn the car. The ankle bracelet verifies he was at home. (Never thought I would be thankful for that thing.) They are saying he had someone do it, or knows who did it because a witness says they saw the car there, the key was in the ignition, (he always left a spare key under the carpet because he was constantly losing his keys), and that the car was moved. (I don't know what that has to do with it....?)
Can they arrest you in Del. if you don't take a polygraph test?
Can one witness, your word against theirs, cause you to be arrested? They can't be mistaken?
What about the police lying? - Within a few days of telling the d. he wasn't going to take the polygraph test, the fire marshal comes out to the house. Says he doesn't have a copy of the 911 call and that he must have left it at home or lost it, (but he had the case history, my son's record, his picture, etc...) but that the Detective told him about it. He's the one who said he didn't know anything about it, and yet he is telling the fire marshal about it, and the fire marshal doesn't have his copy with him, but wants to know all about that call.
I know this is long and some won't bother to read it, but, we are so weighed down. We don't trust the police anymore after this.
If anyone can help us that may know something, it would be so appreciated.
It is to the point that I am not sure if it's my computer or if the police have done something that we can't get onto some sites. When I tried to print the homepage article on polygraph tests, the computer totally shut down, twice. It has never done this before. Another site wouldn't open the 2nd time, saying the page had been removed. Still can't get in there.
Thanks for listening.
They know our son didn't burn the car. The ankle bracelet verifies he was at home. (Never thought I would be thankful for that thing.) They are saying he had someone do it, or knows who did it because a witness says they saw the car there, the key was in the ignition, (he always left a spare key under the carpet because he was constantly losing his keys), and that the car was moved. (I don't know what that has to do with it....?)
Can they arrest you in Del. if you don't take a polygraph test?
Can one witness, your word against theirs, cause you to be arrested? They can't be mistaken?
What about the police lying? - Within a few days of telling the d. he wasn't going to take the polygraph test, the fire marshal comes out to the house. Says he doesn't have a copy of the 911 call and that he must have left it at home or lost it, (but he had the case history, my son's record, his picture, etc...) but that the Detective told him about it. He's the one who said he didn't know anything about it, and yet he is telling the fire marshal about it, and the fire marshal doesn't have his copy with him, but wants to know all about that call.
I know this is long and some won't bother to read it, but, we are so weighed down. We don't trust the police anymore after this.
If anyone can help us that may know something, it would be so appreciated.
It is to the point that I am not sure if it's my computer or if the police have done something that we can't get onto some sites. When I tried to print the homepage article on polygraph tests, the computer totally shut down, twice. It has never done this before. Another site wouldn't open the 2nd time, saying the page had been removed. Still can't get in there.
Thanks for listening.