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A forum for free and open discussion of polygraph-related topics
Posted by Marty
- Oct 01, 2003, 03:00 PMQuote from: Saidme on Oct 01, 2003, 02:37 PMI know this has been on here a few days but just got the opportunity to see it.You are absolutely right about that saidme.
Marty your questions are a bit flawed. Officers may have testified falsely in the past but it would be difficult to determine if their testimony alone gained a conviction. We would need to query the juries to determine the veracity the officer's testimony played in the conviction. I've seen cases where the jury did not particularly care for the officers involved, yet a conviction was obtained. I've also seen it go the other way, where the officer's had substantial credibility and still the jury acquitted.
Also, why would you want to polygraph them on just whether or not they falsely testified to gain a conviction? Wouldn't it be more prudent to ask them if they've ever falsely testified?
QuoteRegarding your statement: One purpose of unions is generally to impede the flow of new workers into the work force to improve bargaining. A high failure rate in poly (and other) new hire screening provides just that.No, such things are not explicitly intended, that's not the way it works. Still, all professions, trades, and businesses, for that matter, tend to nurture barriors to entry. Hell, even PhD's often refer to their degree as a "union card". What I am suggesting is that widespread pre employment screening is accepted by unions where post employement screening is strongly opposed. A high DQ rate in pre-employment screening may be seen as "unfair" by some but won't get unions excited, in LE, or any other industry.
That's an interesting (and telling) perspective. If I'm interpreting this correctly, you're proposing that polygraph is a tool to increase pay and benefits at the expense of applicants? You've reached new heights.
-Marty
Posted by Saidme
- Oct 01, 2003, 02:37 PMI know this has been on here a few days but just got the opportunity to see it.
Marty your questions are a bit flawed. Officers may have testified falsely in the past but it would be difficult to determine if their testimony alone gained a conviction. We would need to query the juries to determine the veracity the officer's testimony played in the conviction. I've seen cases where the jury did not particularly care for the officers involved, yet a conviction was obtained. I've also seen it go the other way, where the officer's had substantial credibility and still the jury acquitted.
Also, why would you want to polygraph them on just whether or not they falsely testified to gain a conviction? Wouldn't it be more prudent to ask them if they've ever falsely testified?
Regarding your statement: One purpose of unions is generally to impede the flow of new workers into the work force to improve bargaining. A high failure rate in poly (and other) new hire screening provides just that.
That's an interesting (and telling) perspective. If I'm interpreting this correctly, you're proposing that polygraph is a tool to increase pay and benefits at the expense of applicants? You've reached new heights.
Marty your questions are a bit flawed. Officers may have testified falsely in the past but it would be difficult to determine if their testimony alone gained a conviction. We would need to query the juries to determine the veracity the officer's testimony played in the conviction. I've seen cases where the jury did not particularly care for the officers involved, yet a conviction was obtained. I've also seen it go the other way, where the officer's had substantial credibility and still the jury acquitted.
Also, why would you want to polygraph them on just whether or not they falsely testified to gain a conviction? Wouldn't it be more prudent to ask them if they've ever falsely testified?
Regarding your statement: One purpose of unions is generally to impede the flow of new workers into the work force to improve bargaining. A high failure rate in poly (and other) new hire screening provides just that.
That's an interesting (and telling) perspective. If I'm interpreting this correctly, you're proposing that polygraph is a tool to increase pay and benefits at the expense of applicants? You've reached new heights.
Posted by orolan
- Sep 22, 2003, 06:23 PMVery true. So do you think the pro-poly folks on this board will weigh in with an opinion :-/
Posted by Marty
- Sep 21, 2003, 04:18 PMQuote from: orolan on Sep 21, 2003, 01:20 PMMarty,
Good, but I doubt the poly community will go along with it. The reason? The sworn officers will present a united front against any such screening through their unions and associations. Can you imagine the repercussions of every major police union and association coming out against polygraphy? It would be the swan song of polygraph screening. IMHO.
LOL! Exactly my point. I posted my "modest proposal" since it occurred to me that were the polygraph so accurate there would be little resistance to this. After all, unions protect their members but even they draw the line at felons. After all, I wasn't proposing they be summarily fired upon a DI. Just that it would be cause for a detailed investigation. One thing the poly does is provide a rationale for an agency to occasionally ask, eyeball to eyeball: "by the way, are you a spy, thief, ...?" This would be nearly impossible to do with fellow workers without some sort of excuse and prop. The poly provides that prop, at least is some areas of federal employment.
One purpose of unions is generally to impede the flow of new workers into the work force to improve bargaining. A high failure rate in poly (and other) new hire screening provides just that.
-Marty
Posted by orolan
- Sep 21, 2003, 01:20 PMMarty,
Good, but I doubt the poly community will go along with it. The reason? The sworn officers will present a united front against any such screening through their unions and associations. Can you imagine the repercussions of every major police union and association coming out against polygraphy? It would be the swan song of polygraph screening. IMHO.
Good, but I doubt the poly community will go along with it. The reason? The sworn officers will present a united front against any such screening through their unions and associations. Can you imagine the repercussions of every major police union and association coming out against polygraphy? It would be the swan song of polygraph screening. IMHO.
Posted by Marty
- Sep 21, 2003, 03:33 AMGiven the certainty that most polygraphers here seem to have about the efficacy of their art and expanding on the idea that corruption within must be prevented by invasive polygraph screening perhaps the poly community might consider this proposal:
Regular polygraphy of sworn officers along the lines of the current counter intelligence screens to include these questions:
1. Have you ever falsely testified in order to gain a conviction?
2. Do you know of other sworn officers that have falsely testified to gain a conviction?
----------------
Now, since false positives may occur, a DI should not be used alone to take action, but could trigger a discreet but complete BI.
-Marty
Regular polygraphy of sworn officers along the lines of the current counter intelligence screens to include these questions:
1. Have you ever falsely testified in order to gain a conviction?
2. Do you know of other sworn officers that have falsely testified to gain a conviction?
----------------
Now, since false positives may occur, a DI should not be used alone to take action, but could trigger a discreet but complete BI.
-Marty