posted 09-25-2006 02:34 PM            

Let me plant a seed and suggest that someone write a publishable article on topics you discuss here. You guys and gals know your material, and it's clear you can write. The profession needs this kind of education to take us past the authority-based system we tend to rely on.

posted 09-25-2006 03:20 PM            

Ray,

posted 09-25-2006 08:57 PM            

I noticed your thorough description of this case after did my late night post. The segment I looked at (the last posted) was interesting.

Your original question is a good one;

quote:

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Do we score BP/BV and EDA amplitude changes from the question onset or from the lowest point following the question onset.

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It is my understanding that there are different schools of thought on this (excuse the cliché) and I am not certain that any particular way has proven to be considerably better than the other. If memory serves me, there is another idea that one should not score the response until after the verbal answer of the subject.

Anyways, I will reserve further comment until such time that I have the occasion to read through some literature on this.

posted 09-26-2006 11:03 AM            

Since using FRT as a chart marking won't work because it has been taken by Full Recovery Time, I propose we adopt BN (Butt Noise) as the standard marking for CM Cushion Abuse. It is really an interesting tracing.

On my office wall for years and now packed awya for my exit, I have displayed a framed chart that I collected during Polygraph Basic at Texas DPS. Right at the end of a practice test just as I was beginning to take my Lafayette Diplomat Thermal Analog Instrument out of operation, My classmate and now friend for life Steve Ward let fly with an excerptfrom a colon concerto he had been serenading us with for several weeks. (The food at Texas DPS will do that to a fellow.) I immediately marked it out of fear of missing an artifact. I used BN above the pneumo because that is the tracing that showed the most reaction. Cardio was already shut down. BN was,of course, followed by L-----L.

Over the years when people came into my office, it became a topic of converstaion. They wanted to know if it was chart from a big murder case, a kidnapping or some other headline grabber. Telling the butt noise story has always been a great little ice breaker.

posted 09-26-2006 09:02 PM            

I just have one question to go with your last post.

posted 09-27-2006 09:13 AM            

quote:

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I wrote to APL, but haven't heard back from them yet. John C. Harris (whose name appears on the software) isn't listed in their directory. If I hear, I'll pass it on.

Ray,

Do you have any of the Raskin's RLL articles? I can't find one that discusses the 10 second issue.

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Harris, I believe, did some of the early work on Polyscore, which is described in a 1994 patent document. I've not read it, but I'd like to.

I've haven't searched thoroughly, but I did find an interesting note in Kliener's book (Kircher & Raskin, 2002) (p.295) on the use of respiratory excursion as correlated (r>.95) with RLL, using the sum of absolute deviations as the standardized measure. They wrote "The advantage of using excursion is that it avoids the need to specify an arbtrary metric for distance on the x-axis."

Interesting, because that is, in part, what Nate Gordon may be doing, but he still uses the x-axis measurement in his formulae, and does not use deviation scores (or any measure of variance) or make any attempt to standardize the measurements when evaluating differences. This is important, because neglecting to consider variability or standardize measurements means we assume but cannot then measure or estimate whether those measured differences are due to chance. Again, things like ratios, proportions, and z-scores allow us to essentially do a better job comparing apples and oranges (comparative response magnitude accross upper and lower pneumos, or between pneumo scores and EDA or cardio scores which have different metrical systems and differing variability.

Perhaps a simpler point it that Kircher and Raskin (2002) acknowledge an ongoing issue of uncertainty, and thus arbitration, regarding the length of the response window.

------------

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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the war room."
--(from Dr. Strangelove, 1964)

posted 09-27-2006 09:29 AM            

Dr. Honts told me that Dr. Kircher has found some more "worthwhile" data in the pneumos, but he's yet to publish that info.

Did anybody read Lou Rovener's recent article in the APA magazine? (All should be reading those in the series he's doing.) He quickly mentions a slowing of heart rate being associated with deception. We don't hear that one much as it's hard to eyeball, but it's another one of those features for which there is scientific support, but that's another thread....

I heard from somebody at APL. (It appears to be a message forwarded by John Harris.) They said the following:

"The referenced software was delivered several years ago to the Federal
government. If you are working on a contract with them, then the
provider of the software should be able to assist you. Otherwise, I can
provide no additional support."

No kidding. Apparently, it's a secret (there's that black box again) unless somebody in the federal government can find the supporting documentation and get it to us.

posted 09-27-2006 11:09 PM            

A decrease in heart rate is one of the discernable difference between the orienting response/reflex and the defense response (Fight, Flight, or Freeze), which is marked by an increase in heart rate.

posted 09-28-2006 09:46 AM            

quote:

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Despite the arguments in support of the OR-hypothesis, alternative theories and differential prediction have not been investigated. Until now, all theoretical proposals for the concealed information test have been formulated in terms of orienting. However, enhanced responding to concealed information, might also be explained in terms of the defensive reflex (DR). The purpose of this reflex is to protect the organism from aversive stimuli (Sokolov, 1963). In the context of lie detection, it is plausible that a guilty suspect will seclude oneself from (stimulus rejection), rather than orient towards (stimulus intake) crime details. Therefore, the behavioral and physiological responses to concealed information stimuli, may be considered correlates of the DR instead of the OR. The OR-DR dichotomy needs however some qualification. First, though the DR seemingly contrasts sharply with the OR, it has nevertheless been proven difficult to distinguish both responses (Graham, 1979; Turpin, 1986). Both systems share several response components (e.g., skin conductance response), while other components have been much debated (e.g., peripheral and central vascular responses). Heart rate has however been proposed as an easily measured and reliable criterion to distinguish both response systems (Graham & Clifton, 1966). Orienting was identified with heart rate deceleration, whereas defensive responding was argued to be associated with acceleration. Although challenged by some (e.g., Barry & Maltzman, 1985), extensive research supports this hypothesis (see e.g., Cook & Turpin, 1997). Second, Lang, Bradley and Cuthbert (1997) have argued that defense involves stages of responding, obtaining physiological responses consistent with orienting with moderate activation of the defense system. We elaborate on their defense cascade model in the Discussion Section.

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quote:

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Results of this study showed that crime pictures elicited greater heart rate deceleration than control pictures, supporting the orienting account. Direction, latency, and magnitude of this cardiac change reflect typical orienting reaction (Graham, 1979; Öhman et al., 2000; Turpin, 1986).

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posted 09-28-2006 10:20 AM            

That section doesn't mention differences in crime picture/control picture response between guilty and innocent subjects.

We know that defensive response tend to habituate more slowly than ORs, so now I wonder if anyone has investigated whether habituation patterns to relevant in neutral quesions accross successive charts (on RI tests) may differ betweeen guilty and innocent subjects.

r

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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the war room."
--(from Dr. Strangelove, 1964)

posted 09-28-2006 11:46 AM            

There was a study done in 2000 by Ben-Shakar, Gati, Ben-Bassat, and Sniper titled "Orienting Response Reinstatement and Dishabituation: The Effects of Substituting, Adding, and Deleting Components of Nonsignificant Stimuli."

BRUNO VERSCHUERE's website: http://users.ugent.be/~bvschuer/research.htm

Link to Ben-Shakar's research website: http://websites.mscc.huji.ac.il/zerolab/

Unfortunately, my mail server will not allow me to send you these documents (I get an error code that your domain is not on their list of acceptable recipients). Fortunately, both researchers have their work available online.

posted 09-28-2006 06:18 PM            

quote:

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Unfortunately, my mail server will not allow me to send you these documents (I get an error code that your domain is not on their list of acceptable recipients).

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Unfortunately my mail server is not approving me to receive email right now.

much more disapproval and I'm going to need therapy...

say's Carl Rogers "how do you feel about that?"

or Fritz Perls "do you notice what is happening...?"

or Irvin Yalom "what do you think that means?"

or Jay Haley "what would it be like if you woke up tommorrow and your email worked?"

(therapy tripe)

r

------------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the war room."
--(from Dr. Strangelove, 1964)

posted 09-30-2006 07:42 PM            

quote:

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Over the years when people came into my office, it became a topic of converstaion. They wanted to know if it was chart from a big murder case, a kidnapping or some other headline grabber. Telling the butt noise story has always been a great little ice breaker.

Ebvan 3 days 4 hours 57 minutes and counting

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One question though,

What if there is no noise?

Is it clear enough for QC if we just mark SBD?

r

------------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the war room."
--(from Dr. Strangelove, 1964)