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We must have a mole (Page 1)

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Author Topic: We must have a mole
J L Ogilvie
Moderator
posted 09-06-2007 05:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for J L Ogilvie Click Here to Email J L Ogilvie Edit/Delete Message
I don't know how many of you check out George's site. I know alot do. It is uncanny how he comes up with information.

Some of you will remember two years ago at the APA seminar I was the first presenter. Admittedly I was not very good. I had a lack of info and was poorly prepared on the major topic. Anyway I also gave some information on a procedure I had been trying in an attempt to get good readable charts from people trying counter measures. I had a slide presentation but no handouts as I recall.

Guess what just showed up on Georgie's site under Polygraph and CVSA forums / Polygraph Procedure / Re: Polygraph Counter measure Techniques

You guessd it. The question is where does he get this info? Who goes to the training and passes stuff along?

By the way this technique was working fairly well on people that I knew were using counter measures. Usually they stopped and The charts would be pretty clear S.R.. Even a couple that were then N.S.R.. I was asked by my department not to do this at that time so had to let it drop. If anyone else tried it or does try it let me know what you think. I got some flack that this would be teaching counter measures but they were already doing it.

I am just concerned about who keeps giving out information to George.

Jack

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sackett
Moderator
posted 09-06-2007 06:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sackett Click Here to Email sackett Edit/Delete Message
Well Jack,

according to what I've read, we have 200 logged examiners to the private site. The problem of course is, that Ralph, though I'm sure he vets applicants as best possible, may not have knowledge or ability to clear them properly or completely.

Unless we go to a voted membership access, (not likely as this is a for profit site controlled only by Ralph's personal ethics) how do we make sure a "hack" or mole, as you put it, has not entered, reads our stuff and reports back?

Out of 200, or so logged examiners, only about 20 post on a routine or periodic basis. That leaves 180 mostly silent observers. Could one of them be in the site under false creditials or pretenses...? I supppose.

The only way to secure privacy (as best possible) would be to post the listing of all examiners with access to the private pages and let us vet them amongst ourselves...

What do ya'll think?


Jim

[This message has been edited by sackett (edited 09-06-2007).]

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Ted Todd
Member
posted 09-06-2007 07:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Ted Todd Edit/Delete Message
I think ralph should require some type of "hard copy" proof as to who we are. A copy of your APA or AAPP Cert along with a copy of your CDL (Edited) should fix the problem.

By the way, DACA's new manual was posted on the anti site before it was ever in print. What does that tell you?!

Ted

[This message has been edited by Ted Todd (edited 09-06-2007).]

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Taylor
Member
posted 09-06-2007 07:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Taylor Click Here to Email Taylor Edit/Delete Message
I too was shocked when I saw the CM procedures on the Anti site. Funny thing is since I made the comment about PEOA my computer virus scanners have stopped three virus/worm attempts. It could be coincidence....but I doubt it. Taylor

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Ted Todd
Member
posted 09-06-2007 08:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Ted Todd Edit/Delete Message
Taylor,

I as stated at AAPP, many of us have received a trojan horse from George. Rovner even called George on it but George denied it. Remember that George is a nut case and anything he can do to F^%$ with polygraph just gives him another reason for living.

Ted

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stat
Member
posted 09-06-2007 08:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for stat Edit/Delete Message
I doubt that the site is hacked Taylor---only that such cookie farming, and trojan malware construction and implimentation would be far more difficult than to recruit sour examiners.
There are hundreds of private examiners who have given up on the business and moved on. This isn't exactly a goldmine industry-----and on at least two occasions when I have ranted against the bizz, examiners have suggested I go into a different field (!). For not-so-obvious reasons this field is a polarizing one----ya love it or ya go on a crusade against it (apparently.)If you criticize it too much, many ranks will use a sort of neo-conservative tactic---wherein you might be either accused of or labeled a traitor. (some of you paranoid types are already suspecting me----don't lie.)
One fortunate area of risk management with the PP members is that we all must be insured with the same monopolized insurance agency (Complete Equity Markets.) Perhaps one de-moling technique could be that any member here who isn't known personally by others who also does not carry insurance would make the suspicious list------in that why would a so-called examiner be visiting this site and not an actively insured examiner----other than some retired gray-haired legends? Send out a mass email for re-entry and proof of insurance (again, I am assuming the traitor to be out of the biz, but having old connections.)
Or, Ralph could just shut the forum down completely for a short while and maybe take advantage of new free software that could "spruce the place up" a bit with seperate topic subforums and other trimmings.When it's done, we re-apply.

Or, we could just get used to the idea that our enemies will stop at nothing to get our information and exchanges. Are you'all sure you don't want to go anonymous? aha!

[This message has been edited by stat (edited 09-06-2007).]

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stat
Member
posted 09-06-2007 09:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for stat Edit/Delete Message
What Trojan horse are you talking about? The last trojan I got was a stupid warning that was disguised as an internal warning which I clicked on at the bottom of a state government site----which was not constructed by that government. The trojan was so new that there was no cure, and I had to do the unthinkable---complete wipe. If I got something like that from anti, than I simply would never return-----ever.

At the risk of inviting a barrage of argument here, I believe that George has far more enemies than allies, and I would expect such malware to be attached from some pro-poly Isreali hacker in a basement, not an antipolygraph activist. Just wait until George pisses off the Chinese gov't----if he were stupid enough to aggressively expand into central Asia (they use poly bigtime). George has no motivation to put malware on his site----no more than you would want rattlesnakes on your own front porch.
To suggest otherwise is like "big oil" accusing the greenpeace website of putting trojans on their site which somehow distinguish the good guys from the alleged bad guys.

[This message has been edited by stat (edited 09-06-2007).]

[This message has been edited by stat (edited 09-06-2007).]

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stat
Member
posted 09-06-2007 10:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for stat Edit/Delete Message
If I put my super-de-duperdy paranoid hat on, I might consider that this site is hacked by a foreign inteligence service which seeks to erode American polygraph usage from the outside inward. There are only 3 such wealthy and resourceful governements that would be interested in such disimination and the western publicizing of polygraph trade secrets amongst our own citizenry. Russian Intel and Chinese Intel are two of them. Neither of the two are big fans of American Polygraph usage.

But, I generally don't wear such a hat.

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Bill2E
Member
posted 09-06-2007 10:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Bill2E Edit/Delete Message
I personally believe that Ralph does an excellent job monitoring who gets into this area of the site. I am sure we may have one or two that are registered that are about out of business and are passing information. The statement of DACA information being disclosed on the Anti site does bother me and maybe the DACA people have some manner of tracking the "Leak". I think it would be an excellent idea to again check credentials and insure that all on the site are examiners by referral from known members. If I recall properly two persons were removed from one of the group sessions at the AAPP. May want to look and see if they are registered.

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J L Ogilvie
Moderator
posted 09-07-2007 08:37 AM Click Here to See the Profile for J L Ogilvie Click Here to Email J L Ogilvie Edit/Delete Message
I wasn't implying that they got the info from this web site. I guess it is possible. I think I talked about it here but don't remember giving all the details that were on George's site.

My feeling was that it came from the presentation at the APA and I am not blaming them either. I just think that it is curious that some of this info gets to George. The info from DACA he gets through the freedom of information act I think.

I don't, in this case, care that he has it. It doesn't change the fact that it works and obviously George and his cronies think it has merit or he wouldn't bother trying to discredit it. The idea was to let the subject know that you know and get him to stop so you could get clean charts. If they don't want to cooperate I guess that tells us something else.

I didn't have anyone refuse to do it because they are told by George not to admit doing anything.

Jack

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stat
Member
posted 09-07-2007 08:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for stat Edit/Delete Message
Jack, I like your approach---it is clever. I do however feel that your method is a little on the "educational" side of methodology----but nonetheless wickedly clever. I too have an especially wicked method for countermeasure detection---it isn't so educational------but unfortunately it is not a deterent, but instead it is a detection method. Contact me if you are interested through either Ray or Donna (my official identity trustees). I refuse to write the methods as like your own formula, it requires strict adherences that don't translate well by my own penmanship.

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Barry C
Member
posted 09-07-2007 09:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Barry C Click Here to Email Barry C Edit/Delete Message
I've suspected a "mole" right here on this board for some time. I'm not sure how to fix that - or even if it matters much.

As far as "moles" go, what's the deal with this info being, once again, available from the anti site before we in the profession can get it?

https://antipolygraph.org/yabbfiles/Attachments/Marston_Inspection_2007.pdf

I don't know what - if anyhting - the APA is doing about the problems found at the Marston school, but it bothers me that an examiner (somebody on the "inside" anyhow) felt the need to go there in order to embarrass the APA into doing something more in line with the poster's view of what that should be.

I guess it would have been nice to see that info and gripe here, among active examiners, first.

Does anybody know the status of the APA case? The findings appear genuine, and only the BOD should have had a copy from what I can tell. At APA I heard it was still "pending," which means, if that's true, the jump to the other side to push this issue was premature.

If we can't police our own, do we really want those people doing it?

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stat
Member
posted 09-07-2007 09:44 AM Click Here to See the Profile for stat Edit/Delete Message
I agree with Barry. Why can't our profession at least give the appearence of having political sensetivities? OK, so Marston School seemed to have gotten lax with the ed workload and class schedules. Doesn't it suffice it to say that the school and the APA be required to give (at the very least)lip service via apologies and/or contritional statements? Apparently not. Silence isn't always the key to calm. Why is some shmuck in Holland swift-boating our profession with such apparent ease? Marston School should have recieved some embarrassing equivelant of a traffic citation and the issue would have been an afterthought.

[This message has been edited by stat (edited 09-07-2007).]

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stat
Member
posted 09-07-2007 10:02 AM Click Here to See the Profile for stat Edit/Delete Message
Barry said "I've suspected a "mole" right here on this board for some time. I'm not sure how to fix that - or even if it matters much."

I don't think there are many more paranoid people than myself. Are you saying that you suspect a poster or a lurker?

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Barry C
Member
posted 09-07-2007 10:04 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Barry C Click Here to Email Barry C Edit/Delete Message
Stat,

I don't know. I know many of the posters, so I'm not inclined to think it's one of them, but I don't know everybody.

(I hit the button just as I saw that typo! I'm slipping.)

[This message has been edited by Barry C (edited 09-07-2007).]

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Ted Todd
Member
posted 09-07-2007 01:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Ted Todd Edit/Delete Message
I'll bet our Mole is John Grogan or one of his supporters. Ralph-did you block his access to this site?

Ted

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detector
Administrator
posted 09-07-2007 01:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for detector Click Here to Email detector Edit/Delete Message
John Grogans access to this site was blocked months ago.

the Marston deal has to do with John Grogan sending one of his people TO that school to spy and after briefly glancing at the 'investigation', to try and make them look bad.

The sad truth is there is no absolute way to ensure there is no mole except to have no bulletin board. I have verified each and every person IS a polygraph examiner on this private board. That doesn't mean they are not John's or George's friend and could pass them information. They could even be an APA member from an accredited APA school but still 'have a grudge' that no one knows about.

I think the problem runs a bit deeper than whether there is a mole here, but that is an argument for another day.

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Ralph Hilliard
PolygraphPlace Owner & Operator
http://www.polygraphplace.com

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Bill2E
Member
posted 09-07-2007 03:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Bill2E Edit/Delete Message
If in fact there is a person on the board here passing information, there seems to be no solution at this time. I don't think we should stop our informative posts and arguments, they are healthy regardless of the Anti site. I learn daily and have been in this business over 23 years. So for now we need to conduct business as normal and not worry too much. Yes, it is a distraction, however we learn daily here.

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Ted Todd
Member
posted 09-07-2007 04:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Ted Todd Edit/Delete Message
I will keep posting here as I enjoy it. I do however, completely refuse to clean up my act!

Ted

Ralph-thanks for the quick info!

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Ted Todd
Member
posted 09-07-2007 04:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Ted Todd Edit/Delete Message
Holy Cow !

You think WE have a Mole? Check the Anti site for the latest APA Mole.

Ted

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stat
Member
posted 09-07-2007 05:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for stat Edit/Delete Message
I am glad someone posted-----but they should have posted here first. I think the jury was in on Marston school months ago----whoopteedooo.
I am far less ashamed of a whistle-blowing critic than I am an idiot or a fraud.

I suppose if I attended Marston, I would be bummed.

[This message has been edited by stat (edited 09-07-2007).]

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stat
Member
posted 09-07-2007 06:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for stat Edit/Delete Message
Come to think of it, why didn't we discuss the Marston School allegations here?

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Barry C
Member
posted 09-07-2007 07:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Barry C Click Here to Email Barry C Edit/Delete Message
We didn't discuss them (much) because we didn't have any facts. Now it appears we do, providing the document on the anti site (link above) is authentic.

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LouRovner
Administrator
posted 09-07-2007 07:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for LouRovner Click Here to Email LouRovner Edit/Delete Message
Folks,

Marston has done an outstanding job of training examiners. Their graduates are all competent and proud to have been trained by Tom Kelly and Mike Lynch.

The whole story is not contained in the report on Maschke's site. Stay tuned.

Now, the question of how the report got to Maschke. The only people who had access to that report were Mike Lynch and Tom Kelly (neither of whom would have been likely to send it to Maschke) and the APA Board of Directors.

Lou Rovner

[This message has been edited by LouRovner (edited 09-07-2007).]

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Barry C
Member
posted 09-07-2007 08:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Barry C Click Here to Email Barry C Edit/Delete Message
And that's the problem, Lou. It's disturbing, to say the least (that it was released in that fashion - without the "balance" of the other side). It would seem to imply a fight amongst the APA BOD, would it not?

I was waiting for you to chime in on this one, but now your going to make us wait? How can we taunt it out of you?

BTW, did you get my response to your email? Somehow, you went into the junk folder, but I think I've fixed that one.

[This message has been edited by Barry C (edited 09-07-2007).]

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LouRovner
Administrator
posted 09-07-2007 08:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for LouRovner Click Here to Email LouRovner Edit/Delete Message
Barry,

Thanks, I did get your response. There are those who say that anything I write should go directly to junk mail.

Have a good weekend.

Lou

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Tom Kelly
unregistered
posted 09-07-2007 08:37 PM Edit/Delete Message
An excellent idea, let's discuss the Marston Polygraph Academy. My attorney advised me to rebutt any postings I see, so here goes. As the owner, I'm really tried of this and I plan to do something about it. Anyone who starts a polygraph school has to have rocks in his head. All work, no profit, and you have to deal with the inept APA. This issue will be resolved soon or it will result in a lawsuit. I spent 32 years in and out of court and this will be a suit against the BOA as members, and the APA that I will not lose. This "suprise" inspection is just the latest of what I have had to endure for the past two years and I'm not taking it any more. Soft ball inspections for existing schools, and unfair ones for newer schools. That's going to end. Demands have been made of me that do not appear in the accreditation manual, and the APA violates it's own accreditation manual and constitution. I have uncovered corruption within the committee that would shock most members. Our former students are very loyal because we do an excellent job training them and they are grateful for that. This will be resolved with a published apology by the APA or they can expect a lawsuit. The posting on antipolygraph.org was word for word what the BS findings were. So the BOD released or caused to be released a private document. The statement by Stat is exactly the kind of harm that has been done to me and to the school. Other than that, have a nice day.

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Tom Kelly
unregistered
posted 09-07-2007 08:44 PM Edit/Delete Message
By the way Jack, in regard to your first posting. I was at that seminar and you did a good job. No reason to feel bad!

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stat
Member
posted 09-07-2007 08:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for stat Edit/Delete Message
Tom Kelly said "The statement by Stat is exactly the kind of harm that has been done to me and to the school. Other than that, have a nice day."

I beg your pardon? What harm have I done to your school Tom? I have tirelessly criticized the "accredidation" of the APA in thread after thread. More importantly, what harm have I done to you?

Your school got into hot water-----perhaps under dubious circumstances (as you allude.) Grow a pair and address them here----don't take a shot at a lone and powerless examiner. WTF?

p.s. I have never referred to your school before this thread ---just in case you are projecting your own personal crisis onto remarks I have made in the past regarding polygraph scandals. However, I am open to adding yours to the hall of shame----depending on your degree of candor here in this sanctuary. I have heard nothing but great things about you and your school, contrary to your defensive tone.

[This message has been edited by stat (edited 09-07-2007).]

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Barry C
Member
posted 09-07-2007 08:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Barry C Click Here to Email Barry C Edit/Delete Message
Tom,

If you're tired of this, then by all means, say what you can. We're all tired of seeing polygraph slammed on the anti site, and most of us are tired of the damage we are doing to ourselves.

Somebody clearly wanted to hurt you, the APA, or both, which is why we find that document up there. Now that we know TV's reported findings are genuine (and yes, I believe George even would have made them up), then can you respond (refute) them?

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stat
Member
posted 09-07-2007 09:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for stat Edit/Delete Message
Could we please get one or all of the APA board of directors to address this leak? If it were my school, I would be BOTH embarrassed by the findings AND furious at such carelessness on the part of handlers of such sensetive information. Tom is right, something stinks.

Tom, I noticed in your profile that you have been a member here since 2003-----and that you have posted on this site only 5 times. 5 times. Come home. Share your story.

[This message has been edited by stat (edited 09-07-2007).]

[This message has been edited by stat (edited 09-07-2007).]

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Ted Todd
Member
posted 09-07-2007 09:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Ted Todd Edit/Delete Message
Tom is correct. That report, right, wrong or whatever, should have never been leaked to George. That was a chicken shit move on someone's part.

Ted

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stat
Member
posted 09-07-2007 09:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for stat Edit/Delete Message
I suppose that TV O'Mally should address how the report landed in the lap of the one D-bag who shouldn't have such material.

tap tap tap

TV?

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Tom Kelly
unregistered
posted 09-07-2007 09:35 PM Edit/Delete Message
Hi guys! I'm on my third glass of wine, and I'm mellow now. Plus I cannot stay upset for more than 5 minutes, which really pisses my wife off. I have nothing but the best of intentions. I read the accreditation manual 6 times and followed it to the tee. For the past 2 years I have had nothing but problems & enough is enough. I went into my attorneys office with a pot of money to start a lawsuit. He talked me into trying one more time to talk sense into these people. He is composing a letter outlining everything that has happened over the last two years and we will wait for a response. After that, it's a lawsuit if I don't have a positive response. Also, why do some of you think the report was accurate? The only thing presented was the findings. My reply the the findings appears no where. What do you think a round trip airfare, rental car and hotel costs for an inspection trip? Perhaps the results need to justify the expense? Many negative things appear on antipolygraph.org, why is the one about me the only one acted on?

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Tom Kelly
unregistered
posted 09-07-2007 09:38 PM Edit/Delete Message
By the way Stat, that was not meant for you personally. I was just pointing out that this is what happens when rumors abound. I was just in Mexico City and I heard that "my accreditation had been pulled." News to me.

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Ted Todd
Member
posted 09-07-2007 09:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Ted Todd Edit/Delete Message
Tom,

I doubt that the APA sent the letter to George. What would be in it for them other than to add credibility to the APA on the anti site.

It is more than likely, someone who is in direct competition with you and someone with close ties to the APA.

Just my 2 cents...

PS: Give 'em hell!

Ted

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stat
Member
posted 09-07-2007 09:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for stat Edit/Delete Message
I have my own suspicions

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Ted Todd
Member
posted 09-07-2007 10:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Ted Todd Edit/Delete Message
Stat

Cough it up!

Ted

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Tom Kelly
unregistered
posted 09-07-2007 10:05 PM Edit/Delete Message
I am now on my fourth glass of wine! I also think I know who did the posting, but don't know for sure. Anyway, I can assure you it wasn't Mike Lynch or I. So perhaps the APA can explain that.

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Ted Todd
Member
posted 09-07-2007 10:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Ted Todd Edit/Delete Message
When did we become such an insecure, cut throat, back stabbing industry? At work, I have more crooks than I can handle. My county just sent two new (fools) to Polygraph Schools today to try to keep up with the case loads.

In my private, side business, I have more work than I can presently handle. Agencies in my county are still using known "hacks" for LEPET exams just to get them done in time for the next academy class. In the words of the infamous Rodney King...."Can't we all just get along?"

Ted

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