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sackett
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posted 09-17-2007 10:39 AM ††† Click Here to See the Profile for sackett ††Click Here to Email sackett†† ††Edit/Delete Message
As recently posted on the "How to Become a Polygraph Examiner" board, someone wrote in concerning the Indiana Polygraph Institute.

A responder ("stat") from the IN Polygraph Assoc responded he had never heard of it and made an important comment concerning institutes who do not reflect their instructors or qualifications.

Interestingly, I reviewed the "About Us" page of the IPI and found it is not only accredited by the Int'l League of Polygraph Examiners (a group I've never heard of) but also the APA...?

As stated: "The training is conducted using the most advanced polygraph instruments in the world manufactured by Lafayette Instrument Company (Lafayette, Indiana, USA) and accredited by the ILPE and the APA. Lafayette Instrument Company, founded in 1947, is the global leader in the manufacture of polygraphs."

Any input from an officer of the APA would be appreciated.


Jim

[This message has been edited by sackett (edited 09-17-2007).]

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stat
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posted 09-17-2007 10:56 AM ††† Click Here to See the Profile for stat † ††Edit/Delete Message
Actually, it doesn't claim APA certification----it just says that their instructors are APA members. The area code on the number reflects a west of Indy area code. If I have a moment, Ill call them-------also bare in mind that the number is the same as one given out last year to people who wanted 1 on 1 training in "beating the polygraph." hmmmm.

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stat
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posted 09-17-2007 11:05 AM ††† Click Here to See the Profile for stat † ††Edit/Delete Message
"Int'l League of Polygraph Examiners"

hmmm. Isn't that the group of crime fighting superheroes?

Wonder Twin Powers...activate. Form of, an ice phd certificate...shape of,....an albatross! (Saturday morning cartoon from the 70's, in case you don't get the reference.)

Batstat

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sackett
Moderator
posted 09-17-2007 12:08 PM ††† Click Here to See the Profile for sackett ††Click Here to Email sackett†† ††Edit/Delete Message
stat,

the above quote was taken directly from their web site. They are in fact claiming their training is APA certified. I don't know any way else to interpret their statement.

I also believe this adds a new legal angle on the validity of the site; unless of course, they meant the Albatros Protective Association...

Jim

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Ted Todd
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posted 09-17-2007 01:26 PM ††† Click Here to See the Profile for Ted Todd † ††Edit/Delete Message
The International League of Polygraph Examiners is run by a PHD out of the Ukraine. I think the membership is 200 buck a year with no other entry requirements.

Ted

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Barry C
Member
posted 09-17-2007 04:45 PM ††† Click Here to See the Profile for Barry C ††Click Here to Email Barry C†† ††Edit/Delete Message
Jim,

I'm with Stat. I'm not seeing your quote on their site. Look again. It says it's accredited by some organization, and then below it says its (mystery) instructors come from APA accredited schools.

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sackett
Moderator
posted 09-17-2007 06:53 PM ††† Click Here to See the Profile for sackett ††Click Here to Email sackett†† ††Edit/Delete Message
All,

go to the ipi website linked by the original message on the open board.

Click, (on the left) About Us

Review the 2nd paragraph under the pictures. One paragraph below your citation.

Jim

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stat
Member
posted 09-17-2007 07:20 PM ††† Click Here to See the Profile for stat † ††Edit/Delete Message
Good point Jim, but I can't tell if the clause is stating that the instruments are licensed by the APA or the training----and who's training---Lafayette's or IPI's? WTF?


Ok, so here is my theory. Dr. V is a grad of Purdue University (among many other universities[?]), in Lafayette In. I called the number of the "Indiana Polygraph Institute" and got a cell phone voice mail. There appears to be nothing more than a Lafayette Instrument corp co-op in concept only (correct me if I'm wrong here.) This Dr. V appears to be quite a talented and well placed (in Eastern Europe anyway)polygraph individual, but his connection to Indiana appears to be for mere namesake. Why Indiana? Oh yeah, because we rock.(?)

[This message has been edited by stat (edited 09-17-2007).]

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Barry C
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posted 09-18-2007 08:25 AM ††† Click Here to See the Profile for Barry C ††Click Here to Email Barry C†† ††Edit/Delete Message
Okay Jim, I see your point. I too took it to have something to do with the instrument, because, in context, they just said their accreditation was from that other organization. I don't know that it's correct to say an instrument is "accredited" by the APA. It either fits their specs, or it doesn't, but that's true of three out of four of the manufactures as we've discussed here before.

They should fix that ambiguity.

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stat
Member
posted 09-18-2007 08:54 AM ††† Click Here to See the Profile for stat † ††Edit/Delete Message
I'll try to call again today. I have a feeling that ---like the penal pletheismograph manufacturers who do their own ppg training in Canada, the instrument companies are initiating, founding, or co-oping "schools" in order to sell instruments. This could ultimately be a savvy business venture by Lafayette (for example)---as why should they wait around for schools to just "open" when they can create their own markets and customer bases around the globe?

On an aside, isn't it interesting that so many topics of polygraph gravitate toward the field of education/ training? It seems to be both the starting point and the end point of our field---in so many ways.

[This message has been edited by stat (edited 09-18-2007).]

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stat
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posted 09-18-2007 11:24 AM ††† Click Here to See the Profile for stat † ††Edit/Delete Message
Hi Sackett. Maybe this is an old argument, but just what APA school do you expect an Eastern European (or any regional European) to attend affordably? With all due respect, a trip to Malasia or Ft Lauderdale isn't realistic for working class Europeans---and to be frank, the APA isn't the be all overseas----at least it isn't after polygraph enters the foreign country after 2 to 3 years. In case you didn't know this Jim, the APA has a rather crummy reputation overseas for introducing polygraph to locals, sight seeing,and then disappearing. This is a sad fact. As far as the ASTM international, that organization reflects such scarcity in resources from country to country that to say it is and will be toothless for decades to come would be an understatement----as countries have their own professional standards, and they typically "cut and paste" standards from organizations such as ASTMi, but editing the requirements that make little sense if resources do not support the guidelines.

What am I saying here? It might be more useful when we Americans give polygraph advice to foreigners, that we consider the local resources. It is quite silly to suggest to a detective in Minsk to spend 20k on polygraph school (a very exotic municipal expenditure), because "the APA/AAPP" is the "better choice." Further, to suggest that an examiner cannot closely correspond with "colleagues" if they attend a non-APA/AAPP accredited school isn't true. Remeber, not every Examiner that graduates from non-official schools is a "grogan." Don't forget D. Arther----if you subtract his unrecognized scoring methods (checkmarks), he was just a talented Examiner. By and large many non-APA schools overseas will mimic APA schools in techniques. They do not get certification due to not teaching as much "history," analogue instrumentation, and law/legality---as wasting students' time with particulars regarding legal aspects when most classes contain students with a variety of local laws.

Ultimately, America needs to stop assuming that foreign countries need to, or are expected to mirror our rules regarding polygraph schools. Expecting a Master's degree'd psychologist to teach the pittance of psychology in say, Turkey, is just as silly as expecting their buildings to be built with American Union Carpenters oversight. It is what it is.

[This message has been edited by stat (edited 09-18-2007).]

[This message has been edited by stat (edited 09-18-2007).]

[This message has been edited by stat (edited 09-18-2007).]

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sackett
Moderator
posted 09-18-2007 03:36 PM ††† Click Here to See the Profile for sackett ††Click Here to Email sackett†† ††Edit/Delete Message
stat,

in regards to this thread, the conversation pertained to the IPA claims, not promotion of the APA agenda.

If your response pertains to the open board response concerning schools, then OK. I'll get right to it.

Just like Columbia or whatever that S.A. country was who wants Dr Barland to QC their productivity, there must be a standard; somewhere! I haven't heard about any other country setting one, so maybe its about time we started to promote some organization as a profesional standard maker. I don't care whom, but someone needs to take the lead and it better not be the "international league of interested lie detectors" or whatever their name is...

Further, I'm not familiar with APA's reputation overseas. How about some of us members who know of it's decline or deficiencies get involved in helping to promote it, rather than letting it simmer?

It really doesn't matter to me who leads this off, but the reason we have the current professional discombobulation is that we are dealing with a profession without agreeable standardization and set values!

Can we make it better today? No! Can we make efforts today to start the progess around the world? Yes!

I wasn't aware there were no APA approved schools teaching in the east. Maybe there would be interest in Lafayette, Limestone or Axciton in providing one. Good schooling with potential sales income.

I'm sorry about some poor local police official in Herzegovenia or someplace that can't afford DACA, MICJ or the Texas DPS school, but if we promote and support "Vlad's Store of Polygraph Instruction" in ANY way, then we, as a profession will reap what we sow in a decade or two. And that will be chaos and perhaps even our downfall as a profession!

Best Regards,

Jim

P.S. I typed this while waiting for my PE to finish his questionare, so there may be some spelling errors and grammatical issues. No corrections please!

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stat
Member
posted 09-18-2007 06:06 PM ††† Click Here to See the Profile for stat † ††Edit/Delete Message
Sackett wrote;
.......................................
"stat,
in regards to this thread, the conversation pertained to the IPA claims, not promotion of the APA agenda.

If your response pertains to the open board response concerning schools, then OK. I'll get right to it. "
......................................

Who here believes that to discuss a school that may or may not be claiming to have accreditation by APA ---has no pertaining value regarding the "APA agenda?" My comments regarding the APA school "accreditation value" overseas is completely relevant to this discussion. The key here is allignment without committment.

Sackett wrote:

.........................................

"Just like Columbia or whatever that S.A. country was who wants Dr Barland to QC their productivity, there must be a standard; somewhere! I haven't heard about any other country setting one, so maybe its about time we started to promote some organization as a profesional standard maker. I don't care whom, but someone needs to take the lead and it better not be the "international league of interested lie detectors" or whatever their name is... "
.........................................


Whether you've heard about standards in foreign countries or not, that doesn't mean they don't exist. A case in point is BEPA (British European Polygraph Association), a struggling polygraph association that seeks to grow into a well-ran association for development of best practices. Judging by your dissmissive response, I doubt you have ever heard of them.


Sackett wrote;

..........................................
"Further, I'm not familiar with APA's reputation overseas. How about some of us members who know of it's decline or deficiencies get involved in helping to promote it, rather than letting it simmer?"

..........................................


As Ray once said, it's important to understand the difference between an organization and an association. With the APA (an association), they are very much used to promote a business by individuals overseas by American businessmen. Make no mistake, foreigners are 20 times more likely to meet and be trained by an APA member before they actually meet a APA officer. So, every US examiner traveling overseas who holds APA membership IS the APA as far as those foreigners are concerned. Promoting isn't the issue Sackett. US examiners are making $ on foreign naivette. Think earlier missionaries by turn of the century Christians.



Sackett wrote;

........................................
"It really doesn't matter to me who leads this off, but the reason we have the current professional discombobulation is that we are dealing with a profession without agreeable standardization and set values!"
.........................................

Good point, although I am not certain what you mean by "values." Is it that we all want the same thing?


Sackett wrote;
.........................................
"I'm sorry about some poor local police official in Herzegovenia or someplace that can't afford DACA, MICJ or the Texas DPS school, but if we promote and support "Vlad's Store of Polygraph Instruction" in ANY way, then we, as a profession will reap what we sow in a decade or two. And that will be chaos and perhaps even our downfall as a profession!"
............................................

Have you ever been out of this country Jim? I wish I could send you some 1st class tickets to say, Luxemburg---where you could be consulting on a rather grissly serial killer suspect that could really use your fine skills. The killer has decapitated 4 teen girls, pretty girls really. If you were there right now--this very moment---you'd care---cause you're one of the good guys Jim. As for "Vlad's school"---the Indiana Poly Institute----who knows if it's any good, and you are right to not promote unknown entities. I'll find out if they are serious. Again, we don't know that perhaps the only thing stopping that school from APA stamp and oversight is the "Master'degree" or "Lawyer" requirments.On the future potential chaos---I see trends toward the decompensation of polygraph coming from within our own borders more than outside the fence.

p.s. I am the undisputed king of type o's Sackett


stat


[This message has been edited by stat (edited 09-18-2007).]

[This message has been edited by stat (edited 09-18-2007).]

[This message has been edited by stat (edited 09-18-2007).]

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sackett
Moderator
posted 09-18-2007 06:55 PM ††† Click Here to See the Profile for sackett ††Click Here to Email sackett†† ††Edit/Delete Message
stat,

in response, you wrote, "Who here believes that to discuss a school that may or may not be claiming to have accreditation by APA ---has no pertaining value regarding the "APA agenda?" My comments regarding the APA school "accreditation value" overseas is completely relevant to this discussion. The key here is allignment without committment."

I was not referring to anyone, I was referring to the claim, as I read it on the web site as noted above, that the IPA was claimimg APA accreditation. I supposed one could read it in a different light, but I did not. That was the original purpose of the posting. That was what I was referring to.

You're right, I do not recall ever being made aware of the BEPA. Maybe they should advertise (somehow) where someone like me would see it. (And please "stat", do not assume my realist observations and opinions are "dissmissive." I am always in support of newer and better, but only if established as credible and professional.

you wrote, "As Ray once said, it's important to understand the difference between an organization and an association. With the APA (an association), they are very much used to promote a business by individuals overseas by American businessmen. Make no mistake, foreigners are 20 times more likely to meet and be trained by an APA member before they actually meet a APA officer. So, every US examiner traveling overseas who holds APA membership IS the APA as far as those foreigners are concerned."

I agree!

you wrote, "Promoting isn't the issue Sackett. US examiners are making $ on foreign naivette. Think earlier missionaries by turn of the century Christians."

If foreign traveling APA members aren't promoting the APA they should. Yes they're trying to make a $$, so what? But, if they are professional, they will also be establishing relationships through those contacts and promoting our profession through; "something." The APA as an association, maybe...? BTW, thousands of missionaries were crucified and beheaded for their attempts.

Since it was the values "thing" that confused, I'll address that. Standardization is a technical aspect of our profession. "Values" is the personal aspect of our interaction by/with examiners and non-examiners alike. Backstabbing, lack of coordination betwen private competitors, undercutting prices to steal business, lack of openess regarding QC'ing, etc. That is the "value" thing I referred to.

"stat", I must admit I have looked over the border once. If you want to send me those tickets and a contract for consultation, I'd be more than happy to travel to Luxemborg, or anywhere else in this world (as I've already proven, uh, at least once...)

"stat" wrote: p.s. I am the undisputed king of type o's Sackett

That's OK, I'm the undisputed emperor in the kingdom of A+++ personalities....LOL

Thanks for the banter. Good imput.


Jim

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rnelson
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posted 09-18-2007 07:42 PM ††† Click Here to See the Profile for rnelson ††Click Here to Email rnelson†† ††Edit/Delete Message
quote:
you wrote, "As Ray once said, it's important to understand the difference between an organization and an association. With the APA (an association), they are very much used to promote a business by individuals overseas by American businessmen. Make no mistake, foreigners are 20 times more likely to meet and be trained by an APA member before they actually meet a APA officer. So, every US examiner traveling overseas who holds APA membership IS the APA as far as those foreigners are concerned."

I think your point is well taken.

However, I said there is a difference between an "agency" (not organization) and an "association." The difference is subtle, but important. Associations have primary authority over "who" plays in the sand-box. Agencies have more authority over "how" one plays in the sand-box. Agencies are more likely to have "mandantes," as directed by legislators, and executives. Associations are more likely to have "missions" in which the piper-payers who call the tunes are more likely to be composed of the membership itself - in expression of their concern for the good of the profession (with comparatively thinner wallets for things like enforcement). APA and ASTM are associations (though perhaps not so much for school accreditation), in which they make "model policies" (read: voluntary compliance/unenforceable) and defer to local or other regulatory authorities (agencies) for primary compliance and enforcement (i.e., licensing).

You have to understand that "voluntary" and "unenforceable" do not mean "ineffective." We have to sometimes pause and check our own mental models - especially if we are used to working in agencies with rather strict protocol and chains of command. Sometimes, in the private - non-agency funded world - leadership occurs by example, not by authority. For people used to agency work, the absence of a central bell-ringing authority can be anxiety producing, and can seem like willy-nilly chaos. It is more chaotic, but its not willy-nilly or anythingp-goes. The existence of even voluntary standards helps us see through the fog of chaos and tell who is doing careful work and whom is simply making things up for themselves.

Because such tremendous weight and economic responsibility rests with things like accreditation, it is not uncommon for one entity to establish standards, while another reviews individual qualifications and compliance, with still a third entity being responsible for enforcement/complaints. Centralizing all authority in a single entity encourages a form of inbreeding and good-ole-boy-ism, in which we have to trust that individuals are making decisions without regard for personal or economic interests. A mature profession would separate these authorities in such a way that it would not be possible for a single individual or group of individuals to hold all the cards. Remember: power corrupts, and absolute power...

For example: the American Medical Association does not itself accredit hospitals and health care agencies; that is done by groups such as JCAHO and other agencies.

You can see this is a little different than the present APA model, in which a single board has direct oversight over standards of accreditation, individual school qualifications, and enforcement of concerns. We have the same ethical myopia with our SOMB here in Colorado. Take a look at Medicine, Psychiatry, and Mental Health for examples of professions that have had to mature beyond any form over-centralized authority (not that cronyism can't still exist, its just less likely).


r

------------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room."
--(Stanley Kubrick/Peter Sellers - Dr. Strangelove, 1964)


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cpolys
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posted 09-19-2007 02:08 PM ††† Click Here to See the Profile for cpolys † ††Edit/Delete Message
I Hope everyone is well.

Unfortunately I am unable to post on a regular basis but wanted to take a moment to make a comment regarding the discussion of voluntary standards.

If you take a few moments to do search on case files, you will find ASTM International standards have been cited in numerous cases, typically involving negligence (e.g. companies failing to follow or produce products which meet published standards). Although there have been no actions or suits brought against anyone in our profession using ASTM standards (that Iím aware of), the possibility of such an occurrence exists.

My point is that standards such as those produced and published by the APA and AAPP are excellent to have, however, they only carry weight over those individuals who hold membership within those associations.

Just my 2 cents.

[This message has been edited by cpolys (edited 09-19-2007).]

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stat
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posted 09-19-2007 02:19 PM ††† Click Here to See the Profile for stat † ††Edit/Delete Message
Great point Cpoly, you should drop in more often. But could you please site an example of ASTMi standards that were used in a non-industrial global trade situation----such as criminal law enforcement interrogations, civil/private detection agencies, therapy testing, maritime testing (shipping containers in international waters,), employment testing in non-NATO countries, foreign airline testing?
These are the more common testing modalities in many foreign countries and international waters around the globe. ASTM is a valuable standardization oranization here and in a handful of western countries, but we seem to be outnumbered by countries which don't appear to be interested in adaptation of ASTMi standards of anything besides how much and what quality of oil goes into a barrel.
My 1 cent, and I am probably wrong some where here, but where?

[This message has been edited by stat (edited 09-19-2007).]

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cpolys
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posted 09-19-2007 02:58 PM ††† Click Here to See the Profile for cpolys † ††Edit/Delete Message
Stat,

When I get some time I will conduct another search and cite applicable cases here. I am currently in full-time graduate school and running the business full-time, so it may be a while before I get back.

Iím looking at this in the scope of how the ASTM specifically relates to all PDD examiners. For example, if a potential employee completes a polygraph and is deemed deceptive, there are gross implications if standards were not followed. If the and examinee is subsequently denied employment, there is definite justification for an argument of negligence. Is an examiner who conducts substandard examinations not engaging in negligent behavior?

My point is that these type of situations should be of concern to examiners who conduct sub par work, regardless if they are members of any association.

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stat
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posted 09-19-2007 05:00 PM ††† Click Here to See the Profile for stat † ††Edit/Delete Message
Good point indeed cpoly. Unlike you, I will be laying off of poly full time for grad school----as I can't imagine doing it all. Good luck man! (or lady.)

stat

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