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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) American Polygraph Assocation 2017 Contest for President-Elect a Three-Way Race (Read 6351 times)
Dan Mangan
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Re: American Polygraph Assocation 2017 Contest for President-Elect a Three-Way Race
Reply #15 - Jun 12th, 2017 at 1:26am
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Since the 1960s, the American Polygraph Association pledged adherence to this most lofty goal...

"Serving the cause of truth with integrity, objectivity and fairness to all persons"

But no more.

A year or two ago, the new, improved(!) APA erased that noble objective from its mission statement.

One can't help but wonder why.

My primary polygraph mentor, Cleve Backster -- a founding father of the American Polygraph Association --  would be appalled.






  
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Dan Mangan
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Re: American Polygraph Assocation 2017 Contest for President-Elect a Three-Way Race
Reply #16 - Jun 14th, 2017 at 1:34am
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To my fellow members of the American Polygraph Association...

As you know by now, the core of my candidacy for the office of APA president elect is telling the truth about the "test."

The truth about the "test" includes a bill of rights for polygraph test takers, as well as an ongoing countermeasure challenge series, where, I suspect most of the rank-and-file members of the APA -- otherwise known as certified forensic psycho-physiologists -- would be duped by CM ringers.

You know I'm right.

To that end, I implore each and every on of you to devote a mere 42 minutes of your time to hear the naked facts about the polygraph process.

Please, try to forget forget -- at least for a little while -- the pile of indu$try-provided horseshit about sketchy "evidenced based" polygraph techniques, wet-dream best practices, and cockamamie "model policies", all ginned up by like-minded polygraph advocate$.

Take off the blinders. Open your eyes and your ears. Listen and learn:

https://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/618/mr-lie-detector

You know it's the truth. Stop pretending.

APA electronic elections are June 18-24.

Be on the right side of history.

Vote for enlightenment.

« Last Edit: Jun 14th, 2017 at 2:06pm by Dan Mangan »  
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TheRealist19
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Re: American Polygraph Assocation 2017 Contest for President-Elect a Three-Way Race
Reply #17 - Jun 14th, 2017 at 8:24pm
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Mr. Mangan,

What I am about to say is not an indictment on your vision or goals, but merely a realistic viewpoint on why you take the stance that you do.

You are smart enough to understand that polygraph is dying a slow, painful death. So, in order to preserve your industry, so that you may continue to be employed, you choose to acknowledge this publicly in the hopes that others will understand the need to reform your industry in order to stay employed.

It is a sleight-of-hand, in the sense that you push for reform to somehow 'legitimize' polygraph, when that is not possible. It is ridiculous to hold to the unrealistic 98 percent or whatever accuracy rates, and you know this because you know the truth. However, it is simultaneously difficult, if not impossible, to maintain the polygraph as viable while maintaining that it is extremely suspect. Error rates exceeding 40 percent, even under the best of circumstances, renders polygraph wholly unreliable. Nothing can render polygraph results as valid. Even admissions 'in the presence of a polygraph' are suspect, at best. There is nothing scientific that states that polygraph are legitimate... so by exposing it's flaws publicly, you wish to give the industry an out by effectively saying that 'we can legitimize the polygraph in the pubic''s eyes[i] by making it seem that with oversight and new rules, that it CAN be legitimized.

I feel that my statements are correct because you simultaneously  denounce the polygraph and still conduct polygraphs.

Anybody else see what I am seeing here?
  
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Re: American Polygraph Assocation 2017 Contest for President-Elect a Three-Way Race
Reply #18 - Jun 15th, 2017 at 12:54am
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I feel that my statements are correct because you simultaneously denounce the polygraph and still conduct polygraphs.


Actually, TheRealist19, I do very little polygraph "testing" these days. The vast majority of my polygraph work is case reviews, primarily for alleged victims of false-positive results.

Generally speaking, I discourage polygraphs and run exams only on a very select basis.

You see, TheRealist19, some individuals are forced -- one way or another -- into taking the "test." Thus, it is for those unfortunate and at-risk individuals that I seek to provide some form of practical relief.

Let me be clear: In my professional opinion, attempting to scientifically legitimize polygraph is a fool's errand.

My approach, then, is to legitimize the polygraph process -- in a manner of speaking -- by fully educating my clients about the risks, realities and limitations of the "test."

It appears paradoxical, I know. I do not expect you to understand.
« Last Edit: Jun 15th, 2017 at 1:46am by Dan Mangan »  
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Re: American Polygraph Assocation 2017 Contest for President-Elect a Three-Way Race
Reply #19 - Jun 15th, 2017 at 6:53am
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I totally get it. You have skin in the game because you need to find a way to justify your life's work and salvage a career that is going down the tubes because the public is becoming wise to the fact that polygraph is fraudulent.

The process is fraudulent. You cannot legitimize a process that ends with a procedure or examination that is based on lies. The result is the same regardless of how you get there, Dan... and the result is simply not accurate at all, and harmful.

It's like Hitler trying to legitimize his procedures for gassing jews. I guess as long as he told them up front that they were simply going to die instead of lying to them and saying they were 'taking showers', then the end result was ok. You have similar reasoning. It's OK to be subjected to fraudulence that can ruin your life, as long as I tell you about it ahead of time. That still doesn't account for those who are forced to take polygraph more or less against their true wishes (PCSOT comes to mind).  Your bill of rights would seemingly give people a choice, when some don't have it. 'Oh, sex offenders need to be held accountable'... for what? 95 percent or more of new offenses are committed by first-time offenders, you know that. False positives, which occur at alarming rates, prevent honest men and women from progressing through their treatment, seeing their kids, furthering careers, so forth and so on. Your 'fix' is just as bad as the disease. If you truly loathed the polygraph, you'd denounce it, quit doing them, quit reviewing the 'alleged' (your word, not mine) false positive results, resign from the APA entirely, and join Douglas Williams on his crusade.

You are not the answer. You are a symptom of the disease.
  
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Dan Mangan
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Re: American Polygraph Assocation 2017 Contest for President-Elect a Three-Way Race
Reply #20 - Jun 15th, 2017 at 1:26pm
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Your 'fix' is just as bad as the disease. If you truly loathed the polygraph, you'd denounce it, quit doing them, quit reviewing the 'alleged' (your word, not mine) false positive results, resign from the APA entirely, and join Douglas Williams on his crusade.


TheRealist19 -- or should I say Honest Joe McCarthy (aka "Amy Baker"),

I disagree with your all-or-nothing approach. As a change-agent, I am much more effective working from within the APA and the polygraph indu$try.

Your gas chamber analogy is laughable. I'm actually neutralizing the poison gas.

My multi-faceted role as polygraph consultant, educator and examiner allows me to convincingly make the argument that polygraph is not science, but pseudoscience.

In other words, I'm venting your symbolic gas chamber and pumping in life-giving oxygen.

My system works. At the end of my comprehensive multi-media consultations, polygraph consumers (both primary and secondary) fully understand why "test" outcomes are much like coin flips.

In the words of SCOTUS Justice Clarence Thomas, "there is simply no way to know in a particular case whether a polygraph examiner's conclusion is accurate, because certain doubts and uncertainties plague even the best polygraph exams."

But, for me personally, here's the best part: Being a polygraph consultant and educator, along with doing QA "test" reviews, is far less tedious than running exams and infinitely more satisfying -- plus, the money is better -- a lot better.

With hundreds of thousands of polygraph "tests" being run in the US annually, there are hundreds of thousands of victims. Clearly, the demand for independent polygraph consultants is there.

As president-elect of the APA, I will more effectively blaze a trail of enlightenment -- and career opportunity -- for those critical-thinking examiners who are not afraid of breaking away from the bondage of the APA's cult-like traditions.
« Last Edit: Jun 15th, 2017 at 1:42pm by Dan Mangan »  
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TheRealist19
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Re: American Polygraph Assocation 2017 Contest for President-Elect a Three-Way Race
Reply #21 - Jun 15th, 2017 at 10:47pm
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I am not Joe McCarthy.  Or Amy baker. Or whomever. I am a former victim of polygraph who figured out the truth and is much, much better for it.

The problem is, by advocating for change, you are still, in effect, advocating the polygraph's use. That is the problem here.The change that needs to happen is simple: abandon all polygraph usage completely, because it does nothing but put our nation at risk and ruins lives.If you aren't advocating for halting polygraphs, and aren't setting an example by having nothing to do with polygraphs, resigning your membership, so forth and so on, then you are still one of THEM, and are the enemy of truth. Any amount of oversight doesn't change the fact that the polygraph is flawed from beginning to end. Drinking snake pee doesn't cure cancer, so changing procedures and providing oversight for a 'snake pee drinking cancer cure program' doesn't make drinking snake pee to cure cancer any more legit or valid, and has just as much scientific data backing it up as the polygraph does (none).

Changing things from the inside seems delusional. Join Douglas Williams in the real fight, don't half-ass it. You are either committed to ending the abuse or not. Oversight does nothing. It doesn't prevent the abuse, because any polygraph given to anyone for any reason is abusive.

To those of us that want polygraphs to be abandoned entirely, you are the lesser of three evils... which still makes you evil, when it comes down to it.  Do the right thing, not the 'most profitable for dan' thing.  Polygraphs just need to stop, no ifs, ands or buts.
  
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Dan Mangan
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Re: American Polygraph Assocation 2017 Contest for President-Elect a Three-Way Race
Reply #22 - Jun 15th, 2017 at 10:54pm
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If you're not Honest Joe, you're an APA apologist who wants me out of the organization.

Polygraph is here to stay. The key to reduced victmization is education.

I call BS on your claim. Detail to us how you were victimized.

By the way, how can exposing the fraud of "polygraph science" be evil?

Explain it to me.

[cue crickets]
  
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TheRealist19
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Re: American Polygraph Assocation 2017 Contest for President-Elect a Three-Way Race
Reply #23 - Jun 16th, 2017 at 12:42am
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I was victimized by the polygraph like many others - forced to take them post-conviction, and had them create instability and loss in my life and the lives of loved ones due to false positives. When I learned the truth, I was set free, so to speak.

Over the years, I have watched this community battle back and forth with itself, and haven't spoken up too much. I have posted occasionally under a few names, but not in some time.

Showing someone that something is fraudulent, while openly and actively engaging in said fraudulent activity, is the definition of hypocrisy.

Your 'polygraph is here to stay' declaration is wishful thinking, and indicative of your wishes and true motives - to find a way to keep polygraph alive so you can pay your bills.

The objective is not 'reduced victimization'. If it was, then you are literally saying that some victimization is ok. It isnt, dan. The goal is NO victimization. That doesn't happen until polygraphs are simply no more. Anyone subjected to fraud, whether they know about the fraud (YOUR plan) or not, is still being defrauded. It is literally as black and white as that. Knowing about the fraud doesn't take away it's effects. Even if it were to reduce the effects, the fact is, the fraud still exists, and so do negative effects of that fraud. You cannot argue your way out of that.

The goal is no polygraphs. Nothing short of that is even reasonable.
  
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Dan Mangan
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Re: American Polygraph Assocation 2017 Contest for President-Elect a Three-Way Race
Reply #24 - Jun 16th, 2017 at 1:08am
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I was victimized by the polygraph like many others - forced to take them post-conviction...


Post conviction for what?

Are you a skinner?

If not, what?

[cue violins]
  
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TheRealist19
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Re: American Polygraph Assocation 2017 Contest for President-Elect a Three-Way Race
Reply #25 - Jun 16th, 2017 at 1:57am
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Not relevant what I did or didn't do, to who or whom or what, when (if ever), in what jurisdiction(s), etc...

Your inquiry, with no response to my truthful statements, sums up the accuracy of my statements. And nothing reduces the victimization factor of polygraphs, whether I was an 18 year old that had sex with a 17 year old classmate, a zoo keeper convicted of embezzling funds, a notorious drug lord,  a drunk driver, or an 80 year old penetrating multiple infants for years.

Polygraphs are all the same for everyone - fraudulent, regardless of why they are taken, by whom, and under any circumstance.

  
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Dan Mangan
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Re: American Polygraph Assocation 2017 Contest for President-Elect a Three-Way Race
Reply #26 - Jun 16th, 2017 at 2:20am
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Not relevant what I did or didn't do, to who or whom or what, when (if ever), in what jurisdiction(s), etc...


It most certainly is.

Plea deal or trial?

Explain your fall.




  
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TheRealist19
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Re: American Polygraph Assocation 2017 Contest for President-Elect a Three-Way Race
Reply #27 - Jun 16th, 2017 at 4:58am
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You are obviously ignoring the real discussion... the fraudulent polygraphs you so admire.

You perpetrate fraud for a living.

This is a site about that fraud.

Your attempts to bait me into discussions about  anything other than the subject at hand are telling.

I repeat once more: the polygraph is fraudulent. The whole process is a fraud. It needs to be stopped.
  
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Dan Mangan
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Re: American Polygraph Assocation 2017 Contest for President-Elect a Three-Way Race
Reply #28 - Jun 16th, 2017 at 1:58pm
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You perpetrate fraud for a living.


How is telling the truth about the "test" perpetrating fraud?

How is advocating for a polygraph test-taker bill of rights perpetrating fraud?

How is helping to remedy polygraph injustices one case at a time through QA reviews perpetrating fraud?

From your posts, it sounds like you are a convicted sexual offender who feels he was victimized by the polygraph component of the treatment/parole part of your sentence.

It is quite possible that you suffered some level of abuse via the polygraph "test" process, so your frustration is understandable.  But polygraph is not going away anytime soon -- certainly not until a replacement is ready to take its place.

No one is going to suddenly "pull the plug" on polygraph. It took the liebox decades to get where it is today -- that is, woven into the fabric of the GOVT/LE/SOTx/CJ -- tapestries. Similarly, it will take many years for polygraph to fully fade away.

Meanwhile, I am trying to bring about meaningful change from within the polygraph indu$try itself, chiefly through the APA. I am also working with alleged polygraph victims to help remedy their injustices one case at a time.

While that not be good enough for you, it's good enough for me --  and it's a Godsend to the people I help.

As I tell my fellow polygraph operators who revile me for the seemingly anti-polygraph stance I have taken, [b]You work your side of the street, and I'll work mine.[/b]

« Last Edit: Jun 16th, 2017 at 2:17pm by Dan Mangan »  
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Re: American Polygraph Assocation 2017 Contest for President-Elect a Three-Way Race
Reply #29 - Jul 3rd, 2017 at 2:46pm
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Hey Dan, why so silent? You did fairly well in the election.
  
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